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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:04 am 
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agent-smith wrote:
praharin wrote:
FriedCheese wrote:
Looks reAlly cool!

Way wrong price point.


based on?


The price.


You can't justify the price using the price? Your logic is flawed. Given the component prices, it's reasonable at $1000. Even thought I wouldn't pay MSRP for it, it would cost more than that to build it myself... IF the parts were available, which they aren't. Specifically the bottom metal, the closest thing available is made by Badger Ordnance (only for the Rem 700) and they are almost $350 with one (5 round) mag.


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Isn't the forward-mounted pistol or intermediate eye relief scope on a rifle of this type sort of an antiquated carry over from the 1970s, before optics like a .308-calibrated ACOG, or an AccuPoint, were available?

ACOG, FTW...

I'd take an ACOG over a scout scope any day!


I'd take an IER ACOG... I have even emailed Trijicon about one, but they never respond :( The forward mounted scope has other benefits, primarily leaving the action uncovered.


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The only thing the M14/M1A has ahead of this setup is being combat proven for many more years beyond the AR10 style.



Except that the M14 was taken out of general combat deployment over 50 years ago, and replaced with the AR10 style rifle :D



What AR10 has been in general combat use for the last 50 years? I agree that it's the superior platform, but they are still fairly new in their development as a combat weapon (In the US at least). This is an entirely baseless opinion, but I would bet that the M14 has seen as much combat use in the last 10 years as the AR10 and variants have.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:10 pm 
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[quote="praharin"]You can't justify the price using the price? Your logic is flawed. Given the component prices, it's reasonable at $1000./quote]

Well, "price point" by definition involves price. But, I was just being a smart-ass.

Now that I read you are an M-14 fan, I think you're A-OK so we'll just move forward.

I might even post pics of my M1A Scout.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:02 pm 
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If not, you can sent it to me to take pictures for you :D

I promise to send it back... eventually


I was also looking for what justified it not being worth the MSRP. I think it is, objectively, but I still wouldn't pay that for me.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:16 pm 
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praharin wrote:

crypto wrote:
praharin wrote:
The only thing the M14/M1A has ahead of this setup is being combat proven for many more years beyond the AR10 style.



Except that the M14 was taken out of general combat deployment over 50 years ago, and replaced with the AR10 style rifle :D


Quote:
What AR10 has been in general combat use for the last 50 years? I agree that it's the superior platform, but they are still fairly new in their development as a combat weapon (In the US at least). This is an entirely baseless opinion, but I would bet that the M14 has seen as much combat use in the last 10 years as the AR10 and variants have.


The AR-10's little brother is what displaced the M-14 as a general issue weapon. After that, the M-14 became a niche gun for 40 years, before finally being resurrected as a DMR.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:24 pm 
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praharin wrote:
If not, you can sent it to me to take pictures for you :D

I promise to send it back... eventually

:)
praharin wrote:
I was also looking for what justified it not being worth the MSRP. I think it is, objectively, but I still wouldn't pay that for me.

Fair point; while we don't have any idea what the "street price" will be, the MSRP really doesn't seem that far out of line to me either. I was just being a wise-ass.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Agent-Smith: I'm asking you, since you generally have your finger on the pulse of the precision shooting community:

The Ruger M77 series doesnt have a good reputation for accuracy, does it?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:39 pm 
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crypto wrote:
Agent-Smith: I'm asking you, since you generally have your finger on the pulse of the precision shooting community:

The Ruger M77 series doesnt have a good reputation for accuracy, does it?

Cool.

I wouldn't say that the Ruger M77 has a good reputation for accuracy, but it doesn't really have a bad reputation either.

In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience, the M77 has been great. I think that a lot of the lack of "love" for the M77 more than anything has to do with the fact that it uses a cast receiver, which is really just due to "snobbery" as opposed to having any technical merit. I find it interesting that in the "tactical" community, the Remington 700 is the gold standard and the Winchester Model 70 isn't popular at all while in the NRA Highpower community the Winchester Model 70 has always been extremely popular while the Remington 700 really isn't seen too often.

Some might say the reason is due to the Model 70 having a slightly more favorable bolt handle (making it better-suited for the rapid-fire strings) but I really think it is just due to inertia - Winchester made a Model 70 target rifle many years ago and that is what folks started using and it continued to be the case just due to "inertia". And, since the Remington 700 was first "officially" adopted by the USMC as the M40 and years later the Army adopted the M24 as their Sniper rifle people tend to equate the Remington 700 with "tactical". Sure, the Tubb2k (which is based on a McMillan action) is getting popular and Surgeon actions are growing popularity in the "tactical" community but that is a different discussion.

My point is that even though the Ruger M77 might not be "known" for its accuracy I wouldn't take that as a negative - I've had nothing but great experience.

That make any sense?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:56 pm 
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Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I have a M77 lefty in .300WM that I bought from PistolPete a few years ago and I'm happy with it. It's the nicest-finished rifle I own, its beautiful. I havent had any problems with accuracy, but Missouri being Missouri, I dont plan on anything more than 100m shooting with it, and it will cloverleaf a 3-shot group at 100m.

That said, I've seen some shit-talking about the M77 on various BR/high power forums since I bought it, mostly complaining about the quality of barrels.

I think that the high-power love for the Winchester Mod 70 is inertia, you're right. And I think a lot of reason for it is the age of many high power High Masters, who got into the game when the Model 70 was still the base of the fledgling USMC sniper program.

Honestly, if Gunny Hathcock hadn't been such a firm advocate of the Model 70, I seriously doubt it would have become so popular.

Hell, the USMC switched to the 700 not too long after Hathcock got out.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:35 pm 
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crypto wrote:
The AR-10's little brother is what displaced the M-14 as a general issue weapon. After that, the M-14 became a niche gun for 40 years, before finally being resurrected as a DMR.


But not the AR10 then, right? The M110 and its brothers have had some teething problems, just like the M16 early on.


I am not Agent Smith, but there are a few reasons the M77 has a bad reputation. A string of bad barrels in Ruger's past. CRF is worse for accuracy. That part is not necessarily a factor, but it can contribute to poor accuracy.

I understand that the Ruger barrel issue has been since solved. If your rifle shoots, clearly the barrel is fine and people saying otherwise don't actually understand. The internet breeds ignorance... shrug. I don't know why so many people just repeat stuff like they did to you. My Frontier can touch 2 holes then send a flier IF I don't let it cool off. As I understand it, Ruger has been gradually un-fucking itself for several years now.

Aren't the McM and Surgeon both based on the Rem700 action?


If I could get my hands on a Pre-64 Model 70 action with a clip slot, no other scout rifle could compete! Ever. I am a CRF fan, BTW. I realize it's not necessary, but I like watching it work.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:43 pm 
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Y'know.....I already liked the scout concept, have a lever scout that I really enjoy, but wasn't quite sold on this.
But that glass of kool-aid Ruger just pulled out of the refrigerator and set down in front of me is starting to look pretty tasty.......

I'm seeing it with one of those illuminated variable pistol scopes Burris makes.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:55 pm 
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A word of caution on variable pistol scopes on a scout rifle:


The variability messes with the eye relief in most cases. I have no experience with the Burris scopes you are referring to, but the Nikon that was on my Ruger when I got it had this issue. I traded it for a Burris 2.75x Scout and am quite pleased.

Leupold is offering a variable scout specific scope now.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:15 am 
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crypto wrote:
I think that the high-power love for the Winchester Mod 70 is inertia, you're right. And I think a lot of reason for it is the age of many high power High Masters, who got into the game when the Model 70 was still the base of the fledgling USMC sniper program.

Honestly, if Gunny Hathcock hadn't been such a firm advocate of the Model 70, I seriously doubt it would have become so popular.

Hell, the USMC switched to the 700 not too long after Hathcock got out.

As I understand it, the 700 is easier to rebuild than the 70. One of the armorers I used to spend hours locked in a bunker with said it had a lot to do with the concentricity of the bolt mech, et al. I don't know if they pad worn areas with weld, then lathe to spec, or WTF, but the snipers log how many rounds they put through their rifles. When they get the round count to a certain #, the rifle gets shipped back to Quantico for rebuild.

Sadly, we sent them M40A1's and got back M40A3's. STA Platoon was pissed. Their girls put on several pounds of worthless BS and were no longer very easy to camoflage. They shot fine, but there's more to a Scout/Sniper's rifle than shooting...

After all, 'Scout' comes first for a reason...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:18 am 
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I've got the non-fancy Ruger scout (top load no flash supposed suppressor).

IMHO Flash suppressor of that type is a waste on a bolt gun (though it looks spiffy at night)....vents should only be to the side...hopefully it is closed on the bottom. Additionally, it looks as if the mag extends too far down. Looks like a big ol snag grabber. The idea of a bolt action scout rifle is to be sleek and light weight limited engagement firearm. 2-3 precision shots at most and then outta there. Don't forget...shorter .308 barrel means using a lighter load ammo. Heavy rounds (169gr+) are designed for 20+ inch barrels. 150 gr or less seems to be the most consistent (at least for my rifles).

Top to bottom: The Beast, Steyr Scouts and the Ruger (plain Jane) Scout.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:25 am 
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It seems like there are very few options for scout scopes. Does anyone know of any illuminated scope that has enough eye relief for this platform?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:57 am 
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Old_Man wrote:
Don't forget...shorter .308 barrel means using a lighter load ammo. Heavy rounds (169gr+) are designed for 20+ inch barrels. 150 gr or less seems to be the most consistent (at least for my rifles).


I put some thought into this a few days ago, and here is what I came up with.

Main Load-130gr Barnes Triple Shock loaded with as fast of a pwder that will produce decent accuracy
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=392754

Plinking load-A 125gr or 130 gr SP or tipped bullet. Prefferably with the same powder and (in a perfect world) asimiliar point of impact to the Barnes.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=741609
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=337808

You could fill in the gaps with surplus ammo, stock some black tip for GP.

Another option would be to reload some of the old Remington Accelerators with 55gr bullets. It would be an easy way to kill a rabbit or two. I have been working on these with my Sako, trying to get a load that shot to the same point of impact as my 150 grain load. I could see doing the same for the 308.
http://www.ammo-one.com/RemingtonAccelators.html

I have no idea if what this rifle will like for bullet weights, by all accounts it will shoot a solid 1" off the bench, which will make it the worst shooting bolt gun I own, but it should fill a very large niche nicely.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:36 am 
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sigboy40 wrote:
I have no idea if what this rifle will like for bullet weights, by all accounts it will shoot a solid 1" off the bench, which will make it the worst shooting bolt gun I own, but it should fill a very large niche nicely.


1" off the bench is what should be expected (best I think I have gotten is .92 @ 150m...it was a good day..haven't repeated it since).

I love the scouts...great for heavy brush, easy to maneuver....awesome pig or brush deer rifle. I would think the same for zeds in heavy brush, suburban/urban too.

One that really hustles is Hornady's 110gr v-max which you can push up in the 3000+ fps zone. I would think the Barnes 130gr would be perfect (now I have to go buy some).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Old_Man wrote:
I've got the non-fancy Ruger scout (top load no flash supposed suppressor).

IMHO Flash suppressor of that type is a waste on a bolt gun (though it looks spiffy at night)....vents should only be to the side...hopefully it is closed on the bottom. Additionally, it looks as if the mag extends too far down. Looks like a big ol snag grabber. The idea of a bolt action scout rifle is to be sleek and light weight limited engagement firearm. 2-3 precision shots at most and then outta there. Don't forget...shorter .308 barrel means using a lighter load ammo. Heavy rounds (169gr+) are designed for 20+ inch barrels. 150 gr or less seems to be the most consistent (at least for my rifles).

Top to bottom: The Beast, Steyr Scouts and the Ruger (plain Jane) Scout.
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You make me wish I never sold my Steyr Scout :cry:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Chef wrote:
Speaking of dickiness, here's an unsolicited grammar Nazi pro tip: if something arouses an emotion or provokes one to action, (like this new Ruger Scout Rifle apparently has), your interest is piqued.

If your interest has "peaked," you'll be over it soon, which is a reasonable assumption, it being a Ruger and all.

Interesting looking rifle, wonder if it'll pass muster.

Thank you Chef,

I have two pet grammatical peeves. The other involves "mute" points from folks unfamiliar with the word moot!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:37 pm 
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J.C. wrote:
It seems like there are very few options for scout scopes. Does anyone know of any illuminated scope that has enough eye relief for this platform?

I run an older aimpoint on my Ruger Frontier rifle. I've tried both a 2x and a 1x and ended up using the smaller optic with no magnification. I only use the rifle for woods hunting though, and don't foresee a shot over 100 yards.

I looked at some of the scout scopes and for the money (at the time anyway) I thought the aimpoint was the way to go.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:49 pm 
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I found this finally - a Burris Illuminated Handgun Scope. 2-7x; at 7x has 10 inches eye relief. It has pretty good reviews on Midway.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/burris-2x-7 ... copes.html

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:38 pm 
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J.C. wrote:
I found this finally - a Burris Illuminated Handgun Scope. 2-7x; at 7x has 10 inches eye relief. It has pretty good reviews on Midway.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/burris-2x-7 ... copes.html

Yeah thats the one I referenced earlier (but didn't link to- thank you sir!). Eye relief range appears pretty forgiving.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:54 pm 
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I'll be honest...unless hunting in seriously tight brush..I like a standard scope. I use it en lieu of binos since if I see my intended game, I can immediately engage, as opposed to switching from binos to rifle and try to re-aquire. A scope (especially with range finding reticle) is a decent recon optic.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:03 am 
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I have never seen those Steyr's before and they are pretty nice looking rifles. I may need to do some additional research and add it to my list.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:49 pm 
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I know that a DBM is optimal for a rifle like this, but did it have to be an $80 DBM? if anyone ever markets a modern scout with a stripper guide, I'm all over it.

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