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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:21 am 
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I almost got into a physical confrontation with an asshole customer at my work. I realized that since I was carrying(I have my bosses' 110% permission) a physical fight would not be a good idea due to the big chance of my gun falling out of my possesion.
It dawned on me that when I go out I am not always going to be threatened by physical harm from only armed assailants. It would be very illegal for me to use deadly force(my gun) on unarmed threats. So now I carry pepper spray every time I go out so I can neutralize, or hope to, unarmed attackers. I aint that small or pretty, but prison scares the living shit out of me a whole hell of a lot.

Also:

Does anyone one have experience with good SP101 IWB retention holster for a bobbed hammer SP101?

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Last edited by bigmattdaddywack on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:34 am 
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make sure you practice with it first.... those systems arnt exactly natural and can effectivly take you out of the fight too... like cross winds , clouding ... inside use .... also use of things like that can also consitered assault. and know which attorney your going to call.

learn your laws and research it.

i mean im not saying its a bad idea ... but its not simply running out to the store and picking one up... and your free and clear . you wouldnt do that for a gun or a knife would you? you would practice with them ... and know when to apply them. also some places have banned defense sprays for one reason or another, also travel with some sprays is hard to deal with. just saying the issues a little deeper then im going to grab a can and pack it.

so good luck.. and im sure youll figure out whats right for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:44 am 
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Who said you can only pull a gun on someone who has a gun? I don't recall that from when I lived in Missouri 5 years ago and earlier.

Otherwise, a 90lbs little old lady would not be able to draw on a 300 lbs mugger/assailant.

The reason man invented guns, was to equalize the playing field.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:49 am 
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bigmattdaddywack wrote:
Also the idea of macing a total douche-bag into total agony gives me great pleasure.


:roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:50 am 
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It was explained to me in my criminal law class that you can not use lethal force against a nonlethal threat. A guy comin after ME with his fists is far from lethal.
A guy goin after a 90 year old lady ican be seen as a lethal threat.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:51 am 
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whisk.e.rebellion wrote:
bigmattdaddywack wrote:
Also the idea of macing a total douche-bag into total agony gives me great pleasure.


:roll:

Hey whats wrong with that?
If you met the guy i am thinkin of you may have the same feelings, just like me and all my coworkers :D

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:59 am 
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bigmattdaddywack wrote:
It was explained to me in my criminal law class that you can not use lethal force against a nonlethal threat. A guy comin after ME with his fists is far from lethal.
A guy goin after a 90 year old lady ican be seen as a lethal threat.


Doesnt take much Pressure to the throat to crush it. A person no matter if unarmed or not can be a lethal threat, even then look around for how many people have been beat to death.

dont think whomever thought that criminal law class had much experience in that regard.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:59 am 
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bigmattdaddywack wrote:
It was explained to me in my criminal law class that you can not use lethal force against a nonlethal threat. A guy comin after ME with his fists is far from lethal.
A guy goin after a 90 year old lady ican be seen as a lethal threat.


I guess I'd have to know local court precedent. Unarmed assailants can be very lethal. However, I don't believe you have to fear for you life, just your safety, before drawing. Of course I'm no lawyer. I do know that court precedent would have a lot to do with it, as "interpretation" is a large part of how the legislation is USED, no matter how it is stated.

Also, your criminal justice teacher applies very much interpretation when teaching law, so you're not getting the most unbiased source, there, and many academics like to use their position as a preaching pulpit... but obv. I don't know your prof. so I can't say for sure.

I'd look into it before drawing mace, where your gun would really suffice. You open carry, I take it? Have you gotten your CCW? What did your instructor have to say, if so? Are you an NRA member? Call their legal advice phone number. It's part of what you pay for, if you are a member.

Consult the state law, yourself, and see how it's worded. Failing that, consult a lawyer.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:00 pm 
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JamesCannon wrote:
Who said you can only pull a gun on someone who has a gun?


It depends on what state you are in, but he's right - you can't really pull a gun on an "unarmed" (now, please read that as gun, knife, bat, lead pipe, rabid badger, venomous snake, etc.) opposer and expect to "survive" the criminal and/or civil trials. In South Carolina, the rule is that a "man of reasonable average strength, could find no other way to escape the conflict without using deadly force". Yes, I know - it's plagued with ambiguity. I guess that's why I'm not in Congress.

You are dead on right, we should all expect to encounter a range of aggression and a gun is a device to be used against only one type of aggression: lethal. You kill someone, because if you didn't he/she/they would kill you. End of discussion.

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I, personally think the Cold Steel Inferno brand of pepper spray is one of the best. You can look at it here: http://www.coldsteel.com/pepper-spray.html

It's EXTREMELY hot, and I like the fact that it comes out as foam, but quickly turns into liquid. Foam is easier to aim...so as you are spraying, you can easily see where it is going and hit your target. Unless you are spraying directly into a strong head wind there is very little chance it's going to hit you. Plus, since it turns to liquid almost immediately - it doesn't give your attacker the opportunity to wipe the foam off and throw it back at you.

Another great thing about Cold Steel is that they offer each size can in an inert formula. Basically it's just the foam without the pepper. You can practice spraying it and get used to how it feels, and how it is used. The inert cans are cheap so I HIGHLY recommend it.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Alamais2.0 wrote:
bigmattdaddywack wrote:
It was explained to me in my criminal law class that you can not use lethal force against a nonlethal threat. A guy comin after ME with his fists is far from lethal.
A guy goin after a 90 year old lady ican be seen as a lethal threat.


Doesnt take much Pressure to the throat to crush it. A person no matter if unarmed or not can be a lethal threat, even then look around for how many people have been beat to death.

dont think whomever thought that criminal law class had much experience in that regard.

Retired St. Louis Police Officer with at least a Master's degree, I would not be surprised if he has his phd, teaching at UMSL.
UMSL is one the top 5 Criminal Justice programs in the nation.
I had more than 1 professor make this statement. Out of 4 prof 2 are retired St.Louis law enforcement and one is a former prosecutor.
Also I am a life member of the NRA and I will contact them, about the laws. The Cold steel stuff looks cool for the inert cans.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Another thing to remember is - I'm not aware (I wanted to say that "there has never been" - but I'll qualify my remarks) anyway, I'm not aware of a single case (criminal or civil) where someone got sued for using Pepper Spray.

You can get into ALL KINDS OF TROUBLE for defending yourself with a bat, or a gun, a knife, so on and so forth - but I have yet to hear of a law suit that involved just Pepper Spray.

I say douche the guy and then walk away, if he keeps coming: two to the chest, one in the head. You know, with your fists - not your gun...that's just mean. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Alamais2.0 wrote:
bigmattdaddywack wrote:
It was explained to me in my criminal law class that you can not use lethal force against a nonlethal threat. A guy comin after ME with his fists is far from lethal.
A guy goin after a 90 year old lady ican be seen as a lethal threat.


Doesnt take much Pressure to the throat to crush it. A person no matter if unarmed or not can be a lethal threat, even then look around for how many people have been beat to death.

dont think whomever thought that criminal law class had much experience in that regard.

Also dude you are in Texas, I am in Missouri. We have good gun and defense laws in Missouri, but not as good as Texas.
In Missouri if you buy a bottle of whiskey you dont get a gun for free :D

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:14 pm 
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bigmattdaddywack wrote:
Alamais2.0 wrote:
bigmattdaddywack wrote:
It was explained to me in my criminal law class that you can not use lethal force against a nonlethal threat. A guy comin after ME with his fists is far from lethal.
A guy goin after a 90 year old lady ican be seen as a lethal threat.


Doesnt take much Pressure to the throat to crush it. A person no matter if unarmed or not can be a lethal threat, even then look around for how many people have been beat to death.

dont think whomever thought that criminal law class had much experience in that regard.

Retired St. Louis Police Officer with at least a Master's degree, I would not be surprised if he has his phd, teaching at UMSL.
UMSL is one the top 5 Criminal Justice programs in the nation.
I had more than 1 professor make this statement. Out of 4 prof 2 are retired St.Louis law enforcement and one is a former prosecutor.
Also I am a life member of the NRA and I will contact them, about the laws. The Cold steel stuff looks cool for the inert cans.


Doesn't mean he's unbiased or doesn't hate guns :P

My great uncle just retired from St Louis City Police after a lifetime working for them. Jack Nieman. He's pretty old school, and from the sounds of it, it was a pretty "in crowd" thing to be a STL City cop at that time, if your prof is old enough to be retired. If that's so, maybe he's a gun lover too.

Anyways, yea, maybe the NRA route is a good one. I've never called them, but always seen it mentioned in their lit. Please do let me/us know how that goes, if you do call. I'm curious.

That Cold Steel stuff does sound pretty sweet... I was always nervous of misting/liquid sprays because of wind and splash and what not. A foam is a pretty sweet idea, as well as buying an inert one for practice... awesome.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:16 pm 
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This guy seems cool as hell. I dont think he is a gun hater at all. We have had conversations on guns and he doesn't show any gun hating attitudes.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Laws very state to state, but any fight involving me is a gun fight, as I brought a gun to it. Someone grappling with me is a deadly threat to me, as if they get my gun they are armed.

Hosing someone with mace or pepper spray will get you arrested for criminal assault, possibly aggravated. The DA might not press charges if they feel it was righteous, but you will be arrested for it. If you spray them and don't hang around, you have all sort of issues with fleeing, impeding an investigation, etc, that can hurt you even if the violence was deemed righteous.

I do carry pepper spray, as options are always a good thing to have.

De-escalate and walk away before it gets serious are always your best bet.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:24 pm 
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As stated it depends on what state you live in, in PA if you believe the attacker wants to kill you then you can use deadly force. As to your situation I ask, whats wrong with pistil whipping the bastard ?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:30 pm 
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The only thing to watch out for, and to check with your local NRA rep with is whether carrying the Pepper spray as well as the gun leaves you open to greater Civil/criminal liability if you do have to shoot someone.

What I mean is this... You carry both and are confronted with an irrate customer. They are getting physically agressive and you begin to fear for your safety. Before you can get the Pepper Spray out, he attacks. In the scuffle, you draw your gun and shoot him. The Prosecuter/Lawyer in the Civil lawsuit state that you are guilty of murder/wrongful death because you could have used the Pepper Spray instead.

Another example... You are walking down the street late one night and are approached by 1 or 2 thugs looking for trouble. As they move to attack you, you draw your gun first and shoot one or both. Again the Prosecution/Civil Lawyer pushed for murder as you could have used the Pepper Spray and ran away.

I guess what I am getting at here, is that having the options is great and I agree I would rather Mace someone than kill them if I have that choice. But if by having those options and chosing lethal over less-than-lethal puts me at a greater risk or prosecution or civil liability, I would rather not carry the other options and stick solely with the Firearm.

I hope this ramble makes sense. And if anyone more Legally inclined has advice on this, please speak up. I would love to know if carrying both puts me at a greater risk for prosecution or civil liability.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Ok, well, if that happens, ditch the pepper spray and hope they don't ask you if you had pepper spray on you :P

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:32 pm 
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phil_in_cs wrote:

Hosing someone with mace or pepper spray will get you arrested for criminal assault, possibly aggravated. The DA might not press charges if they feel it was righteous, but you will be arrested for it. If you spray them and don't hang around, you have all sort of issues with fleeing, impeding an investigation, etc, that can hurt you even if the violence was deemed righteous.


Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. Now, if you just walk away and go home...that's one thing. But if you hose some guy with pepper spray, walk away, and go notify the authorities you are not going to be brought up on extra charges.

Now, for the aggravated part - I'm going to go ahead and use the term "dead wrong" here. For it to be aggravated, you have to inflict bodily harm. And I mean more harm than a stinging sensation in the eyes. Pepper Spray has been a staple defensive tool for many years now. Every situation is different, but it's my opinion that if I notify the authorities that I just sprayed some guy...they are going to want to see my ID and of course I'm going to show my driver's license and my CWP. When they see that I'm carrying a gun, that I didn't start the altercation, and that I used pepper spray instead of 230 grains of lead spray - I like my chances, that's all I'm saying.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Wildeman_13 wrote:
I guess what I am getting at here, is that having the options is great and I agree I would rather Mace someone than kill them if I have that choice.

Good point.

JamesCannon wrote:
Ok, well, if that happens, ditch the pepper spray and hope they don't ask you if you had pepper spray on you :P

+1 Even better point!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:38 pm 
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Would it be a good idea or a bad one to draw BOTH pistol and pepper spray, and hold the pepper spray in your non-dominant hand, and do a sort of flashlight-supported grip with it? So you could pepper spray the guy and shoot him if that doesn't work?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:39 pm 
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bonanacrom wrote:
As to your situation I ask, whats wrong with pistil whipping the bastard ?

I mean, I guess, if they were allergic, it might work.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:41 pm 
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somberbear wrote:
make sure you practice with it first.... those systems arnt exactly natural and can effectivly take you out of the fight too... like cross winds , clouding ... inside use .... also use of things like that can also consitered assault. and know which attorney your going to call.

learn your laws and research it.

i mean im not saying its a bad idea ... but its not simply running out to the store and picking one up... and your free and clear . you wouldnt do that for a gun or a knife would you? you would practice with them ... and know when to apply them. also some places have banned defense sprays for one reason or another, also travel with some sprays is hard to deal with. just saying the issues a little deeper then im going to grab a can and pack it.

so good luck.. and im sure youll figure out whats right for you.


I know there are some CS haters, but:

http://www.coldsteel.com/pepper-spray.html

This avoids cross contamination.

Edit: Bleah! Double post. My bad.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:43 pm 
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StorminMormon wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:

Hosing someone with mace or pepper spray will get you arrested for criminal assault, possibly aggravated. The DA might not press charges if they feel it was righteous, but you will be arrested for it. If you spray them and don't hang around, you have all sort of issues with fleeing, impeding an investigation, etc, that can hurt you even if the violence was deemed righteous.


Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. Now, if you just walk away and go home...that's one thing. But if you hose some guy with pepper spray, walk away, and go notify the authorities you are not going to be brought up on extra charges.


You are correct - if you leave the scene to go report it, you won't get in trouble for that, though they might still consider it assault until they investigate it. Leaving to go on to work or home is the no-no.

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