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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:30 pm 
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Do you guys think that classic bolt-action rifles are good weapons for a SHTF situation?

when I say classic I'm talking not only about the usual subjects of kar98, lee-enfield or mosin-nagant but also other bolt action rifles of the same era.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:45 pm 
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Sure, why not? as they always say, any gun is better then no gun at all.
A lot of people choose a mauser of some kind or an sks (I know its not a bolt action..), or plenty of other ex millitary firearms as their primary. Given unlimited funds, and options of course they arn't the best, but they where top of the line at one point. Think about it, in 50 years when we all have pocket phone wires that shoot lasers, the ak and ar and everything else we have now will be considered out dated junk. But they will still be very viable options.
Look at in terms of cars, off course everyone wants a brand new '10 mustang, but for various reasons most of us don't have one.
I personally drive an 89 crx, and I love it. Its not top of the line anymore, but it more then gets the job done.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 pm 
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I think the real problem is finding ammunition that will still go bang. Steyr 8x56 would be a no go.

I would rather stick with the main players.

Mauser-all flavors 6.5x55, 7x57, 8mm-make sure that the barrels are slugged for the modern .323" not the .318" sized projectiles. Also, you can probably have a gunsmith rechamber it to a .308, and its a long action, 30-06.
Lee-Enfield
M-Nagant
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Schmidt-Rubin would be good if you can find ammunition for it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:53 pm 
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In skilled hands, a Lee Enfield will put out a volume of fire that will rival that of modern semi-automatics. Commonwealth soldiers were taught to do what became known as the "Mad Minute". That involved firing at least 20 aimed shots at a 200 yard target in one minute. Some of them got so good at it that they could do a lot more than that.

SMLEs, No4s and No5s are also almost indestructible. If you run out of ammo, it's solid enough to make a deadly club and you'd break a zombie's skull with it without coming even close to harming the rifle. If I had to fight a battle with a bolt action rifle, I'd take a Lee Enfield without exception. If you asked me, bolt action battle rifles (not sniper rifles) achieved perfection with the Lee Enfield. It's powerful, accurate, has a high rate of fire, is dead easy to operate and maintain, has high magazine capacity (double that of most other bolt action battle rifles) and it's virtually bomb-proof. What more could you ask for in a weapon of that type?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:12 pm 
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I love my lee enfield. My Mauser is a thing of wonder. BUT try this- 2 shooters line up side by side- semi-auto vs. bolt gun. 1,2,3, go! Both empty a magazine.

The bolt guy is going to feel kinda inadequate. We ran an enfield against an M1 . I'm good with an Enfield, but I felt kinda stupid. Imagine an FAL..........
A boltie is a good, accurate gun, but there is a reason the entire planet has switched to self-loaders.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Mantis is partially right on the Enfield. It is solid. It is good.

It was the first rifle I ever got, its the one I carried the longest (longer than all of my other stuff combined). I own two of them, and I was trained for the Mad Minute...and there's no way my beloved Smelly #4mk1* is a rival for my equally beloved L1A1. The fact is, its hopelessly outclassed by modern semis. For there is indeed a reason that the world left bolt actions behind.

Despite obsolescence, yes I think they make a fine PAW weapon if:
You can keep it fed
Resist the urge to stand toe to toe with an AK playing Fire Superiority.
Can put your rounds where you want them to go. (which means practice, which means putting 500 stupid rounds through it that you didn't learn a bloody thing about, and putting 500 smart rounds through it where you've started to learn some shooting. This also means a VERY sore shoulder, they aren't gentle, they are made to hurt people, including you.).

They are VERY durable, easy to maintain, hard to mess up. I can't say it's my first pick, but I sure wouldn't feel bad if that was the only thing I had.

Most of the old bolties are fine, they aren't tack drivers, and don't expect them to be. The recoil is bigger, the ammo is heavier and you can carry less of it. A few are less advised because of unusual ammo, and only one would I say is a waste of money for both the weapon and ammo (PM me if you want to know, I don't want to turn this into a this or that thread).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:27 pm 
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so yes if it's all you can afford

No if you can get something newer


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:51 pm 
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a bolt action that is well scoped would be good in a non zombie PAW.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:25 pm 
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For a SHTF weapon, you want something that can shoot a little faster. Unless you're at a high, secure place where all you needed to do is pick zombies/people off. Other than that, I'd think something else would be better.

My $.02. Its all I could afford.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:53 pm 
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Depends on what kinda S has HTF I suppose. If you're facing an invading army (could be military/zombies/bandits/etc) then rate of fire > most other factors. If it's a long term power outage/cut off from society kinda thing then roll with whatever ammo you can find. Right now that kinda means a shotgun or bow, I haven't had much luck finding ammo for anything else. Most common? probably 30-06 (been around for a while) or .308, unless you wanna get a bolt action that'll handle AK ammo. I don't know how to get bulk ammo for typical hunting rifles but if you find an ammo can full of 5.56 or 7.62 rounds you'd be set for quite a while with a bolt-action.

For combat, stick with rate of fire though. The added capacity and rate of fire for typical semi-auto rifles outweighs the reliability of the bolt action IMO, probably a good reason why almost no modern army uses bolt-actions as their main weapons. Someone said 20 well aimed shot at 200 yards in 1 minute for a bolt action, get a good semi-auto with a 30 round mag and you're throwing 2x/3x that much without a whole lot of effort. 1 aimed shot at 200 yards per second isn't asking for all that much from a decently skilled shooter.

For myself, if I were going to pick a "SHTF" long range weapon for sniping/hunting I would probably take something like a Remington 700 with a decent scope in 30-06 flavor. Why? 30-06 is a pretty versatile hunting round and the fact that it's been around for a hundred years means it probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon. They also make it in .223 but you're probably not gonna take an elk with that. Rabbits and what not sure, but I already have an M4 anyway :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:03 pm 
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Yes, there is a reason that the world moved on from bolt action to auto-loaders.

There's also a reason why sharpshooters/snipers still use bolt action rifles.

If you can put your shots on target, there's no reason why a bolt gun wouldn't be a decent SHTF weapon. Since my accuracy at anything over 75m leaves something to be desired, I'll still with my auto-loader. That being said, there's no way I'm ditching my Mauser or my Mosin unless I absolutely have to.

I'm reminded of a scene from Full Metal Jacket...

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Do any of you people know who Charles Whitman was? None of you dumb-asses knows? Charles Whitman killed twelve people from a twenty-eight story observation tower at the University of Texas from distances of up to four-hundred yards. Anybody know who Lee Harvey Oswald was? That's right! And did you know how far away he was? Two hundred and fifty feet! He was two hundred and fifty feet away and shooting at a moving target. Oswald got off three rounds with an old Italian bolt-action rifle in only six seconds and scored two hits, including a head shot!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:47 pm 
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Very true,about bolt actions..Once a semi auto was introduced to the war machine,it was bound to die a slow death..

Why out fit your countries army with a rifle that was in no match in mass scale against an army that had overwelming firepower over you...

For the masses,confronting each other rate of fire wins..

That said,when you need pin point acuracy,that goes along with stratagy,this inlays where a bolt action and sniper rises to the need..

are we talking old milsurp only or old civilian rifles as well?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:56 pm 
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many bolt action rifles are wonderful for durability, and for accuracy, and for encouraging the conservation of possibly limited ammo- they lack in firepower, in terms of putting numbers of rounds down the range. they cannot hope to compete with a modern weapon such as an AK or AR- however, in any reasonable PAW situation, stand up fights will result in massive numbers of casualties, so I do not think that the smart survivalist will want to involve himself in them.... Stealth , evasion, and hit and run tactics will be the order of the day.... that said, a boltgun is really a lot more useful for defense than offense, in defending an area, provided with a good field of fire and cover, a bolt gun barely suffers by comparison provided that the operator has trained well and can put shots on target.... when in close quarters against multiple targets, or on offense, however, the boltgun is a poor choice... Commercial boltguns may suffer from the fact that they are not designed to fire large numbers of rounds at a time, and both accuracy and functioning may suffer during sustained fire.... so try out the old bolt action hunting rifle before you rely on it to fire a hundred round string in defense of the BOL......

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:12 pm 
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I have a mauser and love it. I don't intend to go into combat against large groups of military trained troops. If thats what you need it a weapon then I say no. If you need something to protect against raiders or the undead then I say it's fine. Mine also puts the food on the table.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:22 pm 
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Not a damn thing wrong with bolt action rifles other than ammount of rounds down range . If your SHTF situation is you against the masses ,you are probably screwed anyway as an individual ,since you have to reload at sompoint and how much ammo can you practicaly carry yourself . Firepower is great for keeping enemys heads down and allowing you to manuver .but its the careful aimed shots that gets the kills . Sheer firepower from small arm is great against charging enemys (like WW! and the advent of the machine guns against tropps using old style bayonet charge manuvers ). The days of the batonet charge are over unless your enemy is just plain stupid . You have a bolt action and take aim you one step ahead of the pray and spray attitude .

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:58 am 
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Milsurp bolt action and training is better than a semi auto without training. Use what you know and are comfortable with. Also, a bolt action in your hand is better than a top end AR in layaway.

That said, if it is feasible at all a semi auto is a better choice for the Golden Horde/Zombie Mobs in terms of suppression; if it's SHTF I'm probably going to want to put a lot of fire down in a hurry to get the noncombatants out of the way. Then if it is necessary (roadblock, et al) someone with an accurate bolt action can move in and do the precision work. So a 3/1 semi auto to bolt action ratio is workable (and is what we as a group are doing) as long as you use it for the right purposes.

Note: I am not an operator and don't pretend to be so take the requisite sodium dosage with my words.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:39 am 
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Sure, in the same way that a flintlock might be handy.

Meanwhile, if you think you're going to have to fight someone, then variously save your pennies, sell your blood, or give handjobs in the alley behind Dennys and raise the funds for the requisite M4 clone.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:02 am 
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Gatorfarmer wrote:
Sure, in the same way that a flintlock might be handy.

Meanwhile, if you think you're going to have to fight someone, then variously save your pennies, sell your blood, or give handjobs in the alley behind Dennys and raise the funds for the requisite M4 clone.


I beg to differ. the best way for someone to know you're fighting with them is when they are hit, preferably from a well hidden position more than 100 yards away. It should be the last thing they know.

Bolt guns, particularly misurps, can be used to outfit a number of people cheaply, with a round big enough to turn cover into just concealment.

While i do not suggest bolt guns should ONLY be used, it is another piece to a whole picture for security. And why the heck would I pay for a m4 clone if I can outfit 3 people with ak clones at the same price?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:30 am 
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One good thing about milsurp bolt guns: Honest-to-shit intimidation. We've all seen a bayonet on an AK or an AR. If you're dealing with people who aren't armed with firearms, many might be a whole lot less willing to get too close to you if you've got a Smelly with a 1907 pattern bayonet on it. AR says "Gummint". AK says "wannabe". SMLE with a 17 inch blade on it says "Batshit Crazy". Sometimes, beeing seen as "Batshit Crazy" can be the difference between an incident and the looters or whatever just moving along. It sometimes does help if you happen to have a slung SLR on your back...


:twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:15 am 
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^^^ I dunno about that.

Cornish Freedom fighters were shown armed a Mauser & the Sun Newspaper laughed at them for being armed with 'an obsolete weapon'


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:23 am 
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I have several, as I'm a WWII rifle collector. I consider them "back-up/longer-range" rifles. For everyday normal defense, I'd be armed with my AR or AK or VZ.

But, if you have nothing else, it's hard to beat well-aimed fire from bolt guns such as the Enfield, Mauser, or Mosin. Each are sturdy, very capable, and fire a hard-hitting bullet.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:28 am 
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Cornish Freedom fighters?
Only Ones I could find.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:01 am 
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ozwyn wrote:
I beg to differ. the best way for someone to know you're fighting with them is when they are hit, preferably from a well hidden position more than 100 yards away. It should be the last thing they know.

Bolt guns, particularly misurps, can be used to outfit a number of people cheaply, with a round big enough to turn cover into just concealment.


That.

I think there was a section in Boston's Gun Bible about the Afghanis whooping up on the Soviets simply because the Afghanis could shoot the Soviets with their Enfields and Nagants before the Soviets could get in to range to use their AKs.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:08 am 
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CwlCymru wrote:
the Sun Newspaper


This ALMOST says everything necessary, but:

I'm pretty sure that Mausers killed plenty of British troops over the years. Same deal with SMLEs and the Germans.

'Nuff said.

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