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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:17 pm 
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Rock River Arms is furnishing me with one of their AR10 clones to test fire.

I will be reporting in various places on its performance and handling, including here.

So if you always wanted an AR10 for zombie hordes, but couldn't afford the magazines, pay attention: This thing uses either metric OR inch FAL mags, which can be bought surplus for $5 each.

That means $100 gets you 400 rounds of magazines. The ammo will cost you more than that.

It will be a few weeks, but you'll know how well it slays.

(misposted and moved this thread. Sorry)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:55 pm 
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VERY interested in hearing the review. I'm looking at placing an order for an LAR-8 A4 probably std 20 inch barrel, but am considering the 16 inch. Which exact setup are you supposed to get? Also any ideas on good place to order one from? On the Rock River site they give you a list of dealers, but looks like I'd have to it sent to dealer, then mess around with re-shipping and another FFL fee to get it in the neighborhood.

Do you think the the 20in. vs the 16in. barrel would reduce recoil enough to notice? I'd use it for hunting primarily so the added accuracy/punch at range is what I'd want, but it's probably not that big of a difference.

Also any take on balance feel of the 16vs20in barrels? I've heard the 20s can feel nose heavy.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:15 pm 
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Why Oh why didn't they use G-3 Mags...Okay, I'm over it I still want one on my list of things I may never own...Ant :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:26 pm 
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I did test fire it, about a week before I deployed. I'll try to post the report here by remote.

Best groups were 1-1/8" with old match ammo at 100 yards with 16" barrel and EoTech.

Yowza.

G3 mags have issues for anything other than a G3, but FAL mags are almost as cheap.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm 
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holy crap, an ar-10 that uses FAL mags! I might even have to get in on that action lol!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:21 pm 
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turan8 wrote:
holy crap, an ar-10 that uses FAL mags! I might even have to get in on that action lol!



It's the same design as the now-defunct Bushmaster AR-10. The Bushies were breaking their bolts in half at around 1k rounds or so. RR bought the tooling from them and for many many years now they've been saying, "next quarter".

I'm actually interested to see if they deliver the rifle and how it stands up to actually being used. It's been a long time coming.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:23 am 
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Not quite. Bushie contracted RRA to make it for them. They had problems.

RRA has redesigned it, which is what took so long.

It has been being delivered for about 6 months.

The one I test fired was flawless during the test.

I'm quite sure more than a few have had 1000 rounds or more put through by now. Why not check the RRA forum at ar15.com and see if there are any complaints?

With all due respect, I've never met a Bushie I liked.

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HOW TO SURVIVE THE END OF THE WORLD, 2014, National Geographic Channel (props and consulting)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:24 am 
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This is the review I posted at http://www.survivalblog.com

~~~~~~

After many delays for many reasons, I finally have my hands on a LAR-8, which is Rock River Arms' entry into the AR-10 clone market. This model is the LAR-8 16" carbine, flattop, MSRP $1,100.

The rifle arrived in a sturdy bright blue case, compartmented to fit a disassembled rifle of each length, with one magazine, manual, everything wrapped in plastic. This is a heavy rifle compared to an AR15, at 8.1 lbs (for a carbine, remember), but is quite reasonable for a .308.

From the rear: The buttstock is a standard 6 position, and aftermarket stocks will fit, likewise for the Hogue grip. The internals are proprietary, but it appears that standard AR fire control parts will fit. The trigger felt really odd, almost hair trigger, until we weighed it right about 6 pounds. It is just exceptionally crisp with a very sweet let-off. The fire control switch is right-handed only, which is a little odd, since the magazine release is ambidextrous (button on each side), and the bottom-mounted bolt release is, also. It appears that standard handguards will fit, too.
The controls are easy to reach. I do like the bolt release. Insert a magazine, brush downward with thumb, and it clacks into battery. Operation was flawless for the full day. This is on the rifle as delivered, with no oil, teardown, anything. It chambered and fired every time, and there were no hitches.

Here's one of the prime selling points: The rifle is advertised to, and does, accept metric and inch FAL magazines. I had a little more trouble with inch mags, but I suspect they were older. I bought ten at a gun show for $50. That's enough magazines for 210 rounds of ammunition (nine 20 round, one 30 round). That's about the price for just one of the competitor's magazine. Feed and function was fine with both, assuming the magazine was good. At that price, though, one can buy a case and keep the tight ones for spare parts.

The weapon is tight, well-made, with excellent fit and finish. It is well-balanced and comfortable. It felt very robust and durable, though as a loaner, I didn't do an all-out abuse test. If you are familiar with the AR-15, the only relevant differences for handling are the weight and the location of the bolt release, which is lower than one is trained for, but easily managed. Since most of us slap the paddle as the hand goes down anyway, there's no problem adapting to carrying the motion to the base of the magazine well. Other minor differences are the much heavier recoil spring, and the previously-mentioned excellent if unusual trigger.

The rifle came without iron sights on this model (other models have M16A2 style sights). This was a minor problem. I have excellent scopes, but no riser to bring them high enough above the receiver, and no mountable front sight. I managed by attaching one of my EoTechs. The EoTech is a combat sight, not intended for long range precision, but seemed to work well enough. I was within 8" of center with the first shot (before zeroing). That's good enough for combat shooting at 100 yards.

Weather: 64° F, 62% relative humidity, Barometric pressure 29.87 and falling, elevation 630 ft above sea level.
Using South African surplus R1M1, 204W, Lot A11/80, I was able to keep 4" groups of 20 rounds. This is 4 MOA, with 30 year old ammo, a short barrel, a combat sight with a red dot shooting at a red target. I find this acceptable.

With US [military] surplus Lot 1-80, three shot groups ranged from 2.125" to 2.375", very consistently.

Using US military match grade XM118 LR PD (2002, Lake City), our groups ranged from 1.125" to 1.6", median 1.375". This is well within the 1.5 MOA accuracy promised, using an inadequate sight. I am impressed and satisfied. A good handloader could probably break 1 MOA, and this is with the 16" carbine, not the 26" heavy barreled "varmint" rifle.

I would suggest Rock River make the fire selector switch ambidextrous, since all other controls are. That's the only improvement I can think of.

It cleaned easily, with a little more room to get inside than an AR-15. The bolt cam pin appears to go in sideways compared to an AR-15 (rotated 90 degrees). The firing pin is longer. Everything fit well, had a good metal surface and a very dark parkerized finish.

For those of you wanting .308 power and range with the AR's handling, welcome home. For those wanting a reasonably priced precision rifle for target shooting, hunting, or SHTF, you'll be hard-pressed to do better than a Rock River LAR-8. The availability of AR-platform accessories and mods are significant points in favor of both, as are the dirt-cheap military surplus FAL magazines. One can buy the rifle and included case, customize stocks, grips, handguards and mechanicals, load 200 and more rounds in magazines, and still be money ahead of a competing AR-10 clone. Add in the exceptional accuracy and strength, and it tops my list.- Michael Z. Williamson

_________________
TOUR OF DUTY: STORIES AND PROVOCATIONS, Aug 2013 from Baen Books
CURIOSITY: ALIEN INVASION, Aug 2011 on Discovery Channel (military adviser and armorer)
HOW TO SURVIVE THE END OF THE WORLD, 2014, National Geographic Channel (props and consulting)

http://www.MichaelZWilliamson.com
http://www.SharpPointyThings.com Custom blades and historical costumes


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:26 am 
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This is the review I posted at http://www.survivalblog.com

~~~~

After many delays for many reasons, I finally have my hands on a LAR-8, which is Rock River Arms' entry into the AR-10 clone market. This model is the LAR-8 16" carbine, flattop, MSRP $1,100.

The rifle arrived in a sturdy bright blue case, compartmented to fit a disassembled rifle of each length, with one magazine, manual, everything wrapped in plastic. This is a heavy rifle compared to an AR15, at 8.1 lbs (for a carbine, remember), but is quite reasonable for a .308.

From the rear: The buttstock is a standard 6 position, and aftermarket stocks will fit, likewise for the Hogue grip. The internals are proprietary, but it appears that standard AR fire control parts will fit. The trigger felt really odd, almost hair trigger, until we weighed it right about 6 pounds. It is just exceptionally crisp with a very sweet let-off. The fire control switch is right-handed only, which is a little odd, since the magazine release is ambidextrous (button on each side), and the bottom-mounted bolt release is, also. It appears that standard handguards will fit, too.
The controls are easy to reach. I do like the bolt release. Insert a magazine, brush downward with thumb, and it clacks into battery. Operation was flawless for the full day. This is on the rifle as delivered, with no oil, teardown, anything. It chambered and fired every time, and there were no hitches.

Here's one of the prime selling points: The rifle is advertised to, and does, accept metric and inch FAL magazines. I had a little more trouble with inch mags, but I suspect they were older. I bought ten at a gun show for $50. That's enough magazines for 210 rounds of ammunition (nine 20 round, one 30 round). That's about the price for just one of the competitor's magazine. Feed and function was fine with both, assuming the magazine was good. At that price, though, one can buy a case and keep the tight ones for spare parts.

The weapon is tight, well-made, with excellent fit and finish. It is well-balanced and comfortable. It felt very robust and durable, though as a loaner, I didn't do an all-out abuse test. If you are familiar with the AR-15, the only relevant differences for handling are the weight and the location of the bolt release, which is lower than one is trained for, but easily managed. Since most of us slap the paddle as the hand goes down anyway, there's no problem adapting to carrying the motion to the base of the magazine well. Other minor differences are the much heavier recoil spring, and the previously-mentioned excellent if unusual trigger.

The rifle came without iron sights on this model (other models have M16A2 style sights). This was a minor problem. I have excellent scopes, but no riser to bring them high enough above the receiver, and no mountable front sight. I managed by attaching one of my EoTechs. The EoTech is a combat sight, not intended for long range precision, but seemed to work well enough. I was within 8" of center with the first shot (before zeroing). That's good enough for combat shooting at 100 yards.

Weather: 64° F, 62% relative humidity, Barometric pressure 29.87 and falling, elevation 630 ft above sea level.
Using South African surplus R1M1, 204W, Lot A11/80, I was able to keep 4" groups of 20 rounds. This is 4 MOA, with 30 year old ammo, a short barrel, a combat sight with a red dot shooting at a red target. I find this acceptable.

With US [military] surplus Lot 1-80, three shot groups ranged from 2.125" to 2.375", very consistently.

Using US military match grade XM118 LR PD (2002, Lake City), our groups ranged from 1.125" to 1.6", median 1.375". This is well within the 1.5 MOA accuracy promised, using an inadequate sight. I am impressed and satisfied. A good handloader could probably break 1 MOA, and this is with the 16" carbine, not the 26" heavy barreled "varmint" rifle.

I would suggest Rock River make the fire selector switch ambidextrous, since all other controls are. That's the only improvement I can think of.

It cleaned easily, with a little more room to get inside than an AR-15. The bolt cam pin appears to go in sideways compared to an AR-15 (rotated 90 degrees). The firing pin is longer. Everything fit well, had a good metal surface and a very dark parkerized finish.

For those of you wanting .308 power and range with the AR's handling, welcome home. For those wanting a reasonably priced precision rifle for target shooting, hunting, or SHTF, you'll be hard-pressed to do better than a Rock River LAR-8. The availability of AR-platform accessories and mods are significant points in favor of both, as are the dirt-cheap military surplus FAL magazines. One can buy the rifle and included case, customize stocks, grips, handguards and mechanicals, load 200 and more rounds in magazines, and still be money ahead of a competing AR-10 clone. Add in the exceptional accuracy and strength, and it tops my list.- Michael Z. Williamson

_________________
TOUR OF DUTY: STORIES AND PROVOCATIONS, Aug 2013 from Baen Books
CURIOSITY: ALIEN INVASION, Aug 2011 on Discovery Channel (military adviser and armorer)
HOW TO SURVIVE THE END OF THE WORLD, 2014, National Geographic Channel (props and consulting)

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http://www.SharpPointyThings.com Custom blades and historical costumes


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Well it looks like I know where my first stop will be if I ever decide to get a .308. Thanks for the review Mike.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:31 pm 
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I think I'll wait until you get well beyond 1,000 rounds. The only advantage I see to this design, which has already failed miserably in the past, is the fact that it accepts FAL mags. If enough people make it passed 1k rounds, I'll buy one. Otherwise, I'll accept buying $40 magazines for an AR-10.

Yes, I'm a pessimist. If RRA published what they had to do to fix the problem, I might be more apt to believing that it's fixed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:11 pm 
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This design is completely new, and therefore hasn't failed miserably in the past. It is unrelated to the Bushie except in concept. The innards are totally different. That's why it took two years to get to market.

Though of course, a conservative wait to see results is always a wise idea.

arfcom doesn't seem to have any horror stories, and I know some of those guys are well past 1000 rounds.

I'm tempted to see if our Aussie game control officer, who shoots up to 600 rounds per day can test one. He hated the Bushie and wasn't thrilled with the KR, that I recall.

I'm willing to be a test model on a 26" "varmint" LAR8 and trust RRA's reputation if I have trouble. The price is very reasonable, and the accuracy is insane.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Mike: Did you test this gun at you undisclosed location in the Middle East? If so how did you manage to get one sent to you?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:37 pm 
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I have the previous version, the Bushmaster BAR-10. The problem with them was that the earlier models had a weak bolt design. The later models had an improved bolt design, and the new bolt is available for free for owners of the faulty bolt. I bought mine second hand with the improved bolt, and have had zero problems.

RRA intially owned the design for the weapon, but sold the rights to produce it to Bushmaster. BM produced them for a few years, but didn't sell enough of them for it to be profitable. They then sold the rights back to RRA, who took several years to redesign a few features and release it.

I'm sceptical of the "entire redesign" of it. They redesigned the bolt, but what else? The years it took for it to be released is just typical feet dragging on the gun manufacturers. It always takes them 5-10 times longer to get stuff out to market than they forecast.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:51 pm 
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Organdonor wrote:
I'm sceptical of the "entire redesign" of it. They redesigned the bolt, but what else? The years it took for it to be released is just typical feet dragging on the gun manufacturers. It always takes them 5-10 times longer to get stuff out to market than they forecast.


I agree. The only problem IIRC, was the bolt breakage. How long does it take to rework the metallurgy of it? Hell, with several other manufacturers that were not having problems seems like it'd take no time at all...


But we highlight a problem with the AR-10: The lack of standardization that we see with the AR-15.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:50 pm 
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I tested it a week before I deployed, in a hurry.

Now, I'm only peripherally involved in firearms, but I am in the publishing industry and these complaints sound familiar. "Oh, they just sat on it to drag their feet."

Right, because NOT selling stuff to millions of eager buyers is GOOD BUSINESS!

Remember that this AR10 clone uses very non-standard (for AR) mags, that are very common generally. The feed mechanism and bolt have to match up properly. This, btw, is one of the old complaints about the AR--that the mags are a failure point and FTF is more common than it should be.

Personally, I'd rather the time was taken to test and do it right, which RRA seems to have done so far, than rush something to market and then have a Plan B, which is what Bushie did.

And as good as Knights is, let's not even discuss their price :shock:

And many of the parts are standard AR parts--trigger group, stocks, furniture, all standard AR accessories. Unless you plan to replace receivers and bolts regularly, those aren't an issue. And $5/magazine means 10 mags for the price of 1, plus ammo, and STILL cheaper than the competition.

I wasn't lying about that accuracy. This isn't an "equip an entire squad with stamped stuff you can lose if you have to" rifle. This is an "equip a marksman to start bagging zombies at 800 yards" rifle.

My leave check when I return is likely buying one. Either that or an Ultramag .50

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TOUR OF DUTY: STORIES AND PROVOCATIONS, Aug 2013 from Baen Books
CURIOSITY: ALIEN INVASION, Aug 2011 on Discovery Channel (military adviser and armorer)
HOW TO SURVIVE THE END OF THE WORLD, 2014, National Geographic Channel (props and consulting)

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http://www.SharpPointyThings.com Custom blades and historical costumes


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:34 am 
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And $5/magazine means 10 mags for the price of 1, plus ammo, and STILL cheaper than the competition.


Tell me about it. I happened to count how many mags I had on hand for my BAR-10... 18! How did that happen? :wink:

DavePAL84 wrote:
I agree. The only problem IIRC, was the bolt breakage. How long does it take to rework the metallurgy of it? Hell, with several other manufacturers that were not having problems seems like it'd take no time at all...


Did they change the composition of the metal?

The only difference I'm aware of between the old and new BM bolts was the lack of a single groove. The fragile older bolts had a groove milled into the rear of the bolt, the tapered end. The newer bolts do not. That is where they were breakly, allegedly. Perhaps RRA did more than just eliminate that groove?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:21 pm 
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They haven't said, but feed angles, spring tension, shape, metal, treatment will all play a part. Anything more complex than a Sten requires considerable science to work right.

Also, the bolt mass will affect gas timing.

You can't just "fix" something with a quick change and be done. There's science to this.

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TOUR OF DUTY: STORIES AND PROVOCATIONS, Aug 2013 from Baen Books
CURIOSITY: ALIEN INVASION, Aug 2011 on Discovery Channel (military adviser and armorer)
HOW TO SURVIVE THE END OF THE WORLD, 2014, National Geographic Channel (props and consulting)

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http://www.SharpPointyThings.com Custom blades and historical costumes


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