Why do people think ammo will disappear?

[jamoni]

No, I don't think that large bore rimfires would catch on, though it would be quite easy to make, say, a .40 caliber conversion for a single shot shotgun. However, I think that .22lr will become almost everyone's everyday round, with any centerfire being reserved for combat purposes only.

[Nobody]

When I left the U.S., I had to store or get rid of the ~1,000 rounds of Wolf .45 ACP I had been using as a doorstop. Funny thing is, most of my friends already had a few thousand rounds of their favorite calibers around and made by better manufacturers. I wound up giving it away to some 23 yo kid with a .45 Smith; I warned him about the steelcase, but he just wanted a bunch of free .45 .ACP he could feed it. I can respect that.

I think a lot of the kinds of folks who would be prepared to survive natural disasters already have stockpiled tons of ammo, food, and the necessary skills to maintain same. Nitrocellulose isn't hard to make and the materials aren't difficult to come by. If you've already got reloading gear and experience using it, you could just crank it out. I'd expect homemade smokeless to be pretty corrosive, though.

I think it's just artistic leeway to add drama.

[TheLastRifleMan]

I . Nitrocellulose isn't hard to make and the materials aren't difficult to come by. If you've already got reloading gear and experience using it, you could just crank it out.
.

I hate to start a flame war here, but making nirtocellulose is tricky, dangerous and toxic. Coming up with a nitrocellulose propellent that would be safe to use in a given cartridge is even more difficult. Even the right equipment to make a single base powder is not readily available. The makers of smokeless propellents having been doing so for over a century and still do very stringent tresting to make sure what they label does exactly what it is supposed to do. Trying to create a propellant with a specific burn rate, without the proper testing gear, is next to impossible.

A nitrocellulose powder in and of itself is not very corrosive. Most of what is left over is cabon and metallic traces. It is the salts in the priming compounds the caused the corrosion. The potassium salts would pull moisture from the air and cause corrosion. When lead styphenate primers came about, this problem was eliminated.

I am sure you can find nitrocellulose recipes on the net. You can find any info you want on the net. But I would not try to make a propellant myself to use in a modern metallinc cartridge.

[Nobody]

I hate to start a flame war here, but making nirtocellulose is tricky, dangerous and toxic.

I think that after a little bit of private discussion we've come to a consensus: An individual with a reasonable amount of formal chemistry experience, training, and knowledge could be successful while minimizing risk to him self and his operations.

[doc66]

As of last week, ALL of Black Hills .308 and .223 was destined to fill military contracts until 2008. I'm sure that most other manufacturers are the same.

That's why ammo is drying up.

Somebody's shootin' it, but it ain't me.

Doc

[Hollow Point]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

I got this link recently, shows how brass is formed into casings. If one had the brass sheeting, and dies, I do think one could turn out brass cased ammo, and probably could do aluminum, or steel cased ammo is one had aluminum or steel sheeting.

I reiterate my original idea that post-crap hit fan, cartridge based firearms are here to stay.

The ammo might be very expensive, uncommon, and not in a caliber you have, thus making a conventional muzzle loader attractive to many, but for some, they'll have new cartridges for their firearms.

[url]http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/
[/url]

[Hollow Point]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

I got this link recently, shows how brass is formed into casings. If one had the brass sheeting, and dies and machines to use them, I do think one could turn out brass cased ammo, and probably could do aluminum, or steel cased ammo is one had aluminum or steel sheeting.

The dies don't look like anything that couldn't be done on a lathe that any machien shop wouldn't have.

I reiterate my original idea that post-crap hit fan, cartridge based firearms are here to stay.

The ammo might be very expensive, uncommon, and not in a caliber you have, thus making a conventional muzzle loader attractive to many, but for some, they'll have new cartridges for their firearms.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/

[Junkmaster]

I've been researching Nitrocellulose manufacturering and I think people are living in the clouds if they think modern Ammo is going to be readily available in the PAW.

I'm not saying that their won't be any, but it will be few and far between. The learning curve on manufacturing Nitrocellulose is steep and deadly and that is just for the base, you still have to manufacture the stabilizers & primers.

It is easy to say "An individual with a reasonable amount of formal chemistry experience, training, and knowledge could be successful while minimizing risk to him self and his operations," but in reality does that person even survive? Does that person have access to the right supplies or are they going to have to improvise and increase their risk of death? Does that person want to even risk his or her life to make a handful of bullets? Once word gets out that person is making Ammo what is going to stop a mob of people with clubs and swords from taking that Ammo by force? Catch-22, I have to use my Ammo to protect my Ammo. How much Nitrocellulose can a single person safely produce per day?

What concerns me even more is that there appears to only be one weapons-grade manufacturer of Nitrocellulose in the United States and most of the Ammo manufacturers are importing their Nitrocellulose from China and Taiwan which have hundreds of them, so even if we survive the PAW we are mostly going to be using black powder and muskets while our Frenemies the Chinese will still be armed with Modern weapons, not a pleasant scenario to contemplate.

jm

[Chirpy]

Five years is pretty impressive...

[Junkmaster]

Well searching the site for Nitrocellulos didn't return many results and this thread was one of the few that actually discussed it in the PAW.

I just think people are way to overconfident that modern Ammo will be available 5-10 years Post-PAW except in the hands of a Chinese soldier.

I'm planning on doing a fresh thread specifically on Nitrocellulose at some point but wanted to see what kind of response I got from bumping this one first.

jm

[minengr]

Yes, this is a really old thread, but I can't help myself. My big question would be, anyone planning on making their own reloading components in a PAW, do you currently reload?

I ask for a couple reasons. One, yes, it may be possible to manufacture your own brass, powder, and even primiers. It's also possible for me to pick the winning powerball numbers, but I'm not counting on it. That's why I'm stocking up now. I would hope most would agree that while possible, the practicality, would be questionable. Quality components exits now. The quality control is quite good (something I would question in a PAW), stack and pack components now. Better yet stack and pack ammo. Commercial or reloaded ammo properly stored will last a lifetime. Seal primers with old nail polish, store it in surplus ammo cans, keep the ammo cans in a relatively cool and dry place and you're good to go.

I guess I'm of the mindset that there will be more important things occupying my day in a PAW. I don't foresee having the time, raw materials, or tools to try to make this stuff from scratch.

Even if one was successful, how confident would you be in the results? Every time I pull the trigger on a new reload I'm a bit hesitant, and that using know powders, know primers, and charges out of published manuals. There is no effing way I'm loading someones "home made" smokeless powder. Errors can be catastrophic. It's just not worth the risk IMO. Pile high and deep now is my plan.

[sarky]

If you are going to get a black powder revolver, get the Ruger in stainless. Then invest in a centerfire cylinder for it. This gives you the option of firing smokeless cased ammo or black powder.
There are a couple of black powder doubles shotguns out there. I was lucky enough to get a Beretta 12GA over and under model.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Buy 50,000 rounds now and don't worry about it?

[VeniVidiVici]

Buy 50,000 rounds now and don't worry about it?

This is probably more realistic than the homebrewed chemistry labs that have been suggested in this thread.

[azrael99]

i was thinking to get a sharp rifle. with what you could use cartridge and paper cartridge.

[minengr]

Buy 50,000 rounds now and don't worry about it?

This is probably more realistic than the homebrewed chemistry labs that have been suggested in this thread.

That's what I was thinking.

I'm really waiting to hear about how to turn down brass rod stock into cases. I'd like to hear how that conversation is going to go with a group. "Um, ya, I need to use the last bit of diesel in the generator to fire up the lathe so I can make brass cases." "I know we don't have any power to reload them, but I read on the internet making powder wasn't all that hard, I'm going to work on that next." "No, I haven't figured out primers either, but after brass cases and powder it shouldn't be all that hard."

[Junkmaster]

Buy 50,000 rounds now and don't worry about it?

This is probably more realistic than the homebrewed chemistry labs that have been suggested in this thread.

That is good advice for short term survival, but the OP and underlining concern is what about in the long term when civilization completely breaks down?

Scenario A - Some type of SHTF occurs that doesn't completely break down civilization.

Scenario B - Some type of SHTF occurs that does completely break down civilization.

The above advice will serve Scenario A survivors well because all they have to do is wait until law and order are reestablished, but in a Scenario B situation no help is coming.

The concern is that you just might survive the PAW and as your 50,000 bullets begin to run out you get overrun by Russian and/or Chinese soldiers that have already rebuilt their civilizations and rearmed their soldiers.

My concern is that very few people will actually be able to restart vital manufacturing processes after a Scenario B.

jm

[DannusMaximus]

I wonder what the 1800's mountain men or 1700's voyageurs, folks who were pretty much living full time in a hostile environment (surrounded by 2 and 4 legged predators), went through as far as powder and ammunition for hunting and defense?

3 or 4 rounds a week, maybe? Less?

Why does anybody think they need tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition to survive if things go tits up? For bartering I get it (although I think one could make an argument that you shouldn't give things in trade that can be used to kill you immediately afterwards), but for defense or hunting? No way.

[BigDaddyTX]

My brother has a PhD in Biochemistry and his fiancee has her PhD in Chemistry. I'll ask them to look into nitrocellulose to see how hard they think it would be to recreate. There is a lot of supposition in this thread..

[Ad'lan]

I hate to start a flame war here, but making nirtocellulose is tricky, dangerous and toxic.

I think that after a little bit of private discussion we've come to a consensus: An individual with a reasonable amount of formal chemistry experience, training, and knowledge could be successful while minimizing risk to him self and his operations.

I'm a 3rd year chemistry student with a year in industry under my belt. I roughly agree with that list. Add one more thing: Supplies and a Lab. Trying to do it in the kitchen sink from various scavenged resources would be much, much harder.

[DarkAxel]

Buy 50,000 rounds now and don't worry about it?

This is the right answer for a prepper. If you don't already have it, don't count on getting it post SHTF.

With that said, I don't believe that ammo will completely disappear in any real long-term SHTF or PAW.

For ammo manufacturing to completely vanish, everyone who already knows how to do will have to die, every media with the information on how to make it must be destroyed or become unreadable, and mankind must somehow forget how to build machines.

That's not to say there won't be massive shortages in both weapons and ammo after a world-changing SHTF, while people rediscover or adapt the methods of manufacturing the components and the machines needed.

[NamelessStain]

Buy 50,000 rounds now and don't worry about it?

Damnit stop raising the number!!! I just passed 10k.

[CitizenZ]

It still seems to make more sense to just buy more primers and reloading gear.

For the price of one flintlock you could buy many thousands of primers and powder charges.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Buy 50,000 rounds now and don't worry about it?

This is probably more realistic than the homebrewed chemistry labs that have been suggested in this thread.

That is good advice for short term survival, but the OP and underlining concern is what about in the long term when civilization completely breaks down?

Scenario A - Some type of SHTF occurs that doesn't completely break down civilization.

Scenario B - Some type of SHTF occurs that does completely break down civilization.

The above advice will serve Scenario A survivors well because all they have to do is wait until law and order are reestablished, but in a Scenario B situation no help is coming.

The concern is that you just might survive the PAW and as your 50,000 bullets begin to run out you get overrun by Russian and/or Chinese soldiers that have already rebuilt their civilizations and rearmed their soldiers.

My concern is that very few people will actually be able to restart vital manufacturing processes after a Scenario B.

jm

Describe a scenario in which me and ten of my closest friends are going to run through 50,000 rounds in our lifetimes?

I'm also intent on learning bowmanship, and could probably spearhunt if I had to. My average shot is about 50 yds on a spot and stalk, and there's plenty of eating to be done without firing a single round.

If I get over-run by soldiers from a foreign country because their nitrocellulose production is better than mine then I'm learning Russian/Chinese. This is not Red Dawn. I cannot fight off an army. Especially one that has the logistic support to cross the Atlantic or pacific, and get regular supply trains running to support them as they conquer the US. Gimme a platoon of well-supplied Infantry Marines, and I can do soem damage, but I think a risk asse4ssment is in order. Otherwise I'll getmy nitrocellulose-loaded rounds from the bi-weekly drops from the Meatworld Express. (a subsidiary of Spicedragon Deliveries, LLC)

TL:DR Don't play WWYD with me. You're creating a ridiculous scenario to support an interest. You wanna manufacture nitro-whatever? Cool. Do it legally, far from my house, and report the results on ZS. Come backwith all ten fingers, and I owe you kudos. I'd rather stock the ammo now. Hell, 10k rounds (split between .45, 8mm, 6.8, 5.56, and .22LR) would likely be a lifetime supply for me in any PAW.

Don't look at the military service and assume I'd try to fight an entire army. If the US fell, and then we got invaded, i might just enlist with them for citizenship. Fighting off an entire army is ludicrous.

That, or I'll pull a Haji Rahman and yell "MISTA, CHOCOLATE?" when their trucks go by.