Pocket pistols make my peepee hurt

[RickOShea]

A lot of people I know swear by them and wear them in fight class.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!....First rule of Fight Class, dude. First rule of Fight Class.

[RickOShea]

Wait, didn't ninjas, gladiators, Roman soldiers, and samuari all wear flip flops?

Pocket pistols do suck, but they have a time and a place, especialy when they are as sexy and powerful as this one!

Needs moar LASERS:

[northernxposure]

Rick, can you put those together eg top/side/front/back - I thought the SP101 was bigger than that, that's not a terrible size at all, actually...

NXP (who abides, man.)

[RickOShea]

Rick, can you put those together eg top/side/front/back - I thought the SP101 was bigger than that, that's not a terrible size at all, actually...

Gimme a few minutes, then meet me over in Firearms Chat.

[crypto]

Tell you guys what:

Next time I'm at the range, I'll bring my shot clock, record my first shot split time, take a picture of my 7m target while using a pocket holster for my G26, and post both in this thread, provided it doesn't get locked first.

Slower than my 1.25 split from an OWB holster? Sure. Slower than my 1.6 split from my IWB concealment holster? yeah. But it'll still be plenty fast.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Wait, didn't ninjas, gladiators, Roman soldiers, and samuari all wear flip flops?

(don't take ^^^^that comment seriously, I'm not that guy that thinks he is/wants to be any of those things mentioned above)

No, they wore tabi boots, tied-in leather sandals, tied-on leather sandals, and and some variant of fur-lined shoe in combat, in order of your listing. None of them wore flip-flops. Lern 2 history.

[TheLastOne]

A lot of people I know swear by them and wear them in fight class.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!....First rule of Fight Class, dude. First rule of Fight Class.

I'll break it again. I just got my ass handed to me (again) in kickboxing tonight. But I had fun and handed out some ass too.

/eta At work there is a guy who has studied bjj forever, a guy who studies shaolin kf forever ( ) and me. I'm suggesting late night parking lot antics.

Also, Mav, that is one sexy revolver. I'd still hate to have to reload under stress

[RickOShea]

Also, Mav, that is one sexy revolver. I'd still hate to have to reload under stress

Even Superman ducked when someone threw an empty revolver at him.

[Gun_Nut_2k1]

Tell you guys what:

Next time I'm at the range, I'll bring my shot clock, record my first shot split time, take a picture of
my 7m target while using a pocket holster for my G26, and post both in this thread, provided it
doesn't get locked first.

Slower than my 1.25 split from an OWB holster? Sure. Slower than my 1.6 split from my IWB
concealment holster? yeah. But it'll still be plenty fast.

I pocket carry much of the time. The guy with the visible holster maybe faster on the clock than
me, but he is also the first guy to get shot when the maniac shoots up the dinner. I also did a draw
and shoot with a board member here a few years back and he beat me to the target, but by a slim
margin. Given any kind of handicap, um say like the bad guy not seeing my gun, I could on occasion
beat him to the first shot.

[Vicarious_Lee]

For a minute there, I thought those quotes were from Roadhouse, and was going to buy RG and PistolPete a new ZS shirt each, because that would've made them co-creators of what I think is the single most awesome thread on ZS in at least the last two years.

It's still awesome, especially for how cool everyone is being with throwing shit at each other and debating multiple topics, but it has to have Patrick Swayze In Roadhouse to be Patrick Swayze In Roadhouse Awesome.

I remember several years ago that Rolling Stone named Red Dawn and Road House as the #1 and #2 worst movies of all time.....but dammit, some unseen force (and no, it's not Swayze's ghost ) compels me to watch them everytime they come on TV (which is fairly often).

They would.

Fuck Rolling Stone. In the face.

Doc Torr: The magic is kind of gone for that now. It's forced. However, you want me to ship you a new "Aesesino Del Zombi" T shirt to AG, just PM me the specifics of how to get it there and consider it done (in a very late and untimely fashion).

Crypto, I'd actually like to see that litmus test put to practice. This whole thread splits academic hairs that are confounded with training, gear, situational awareness, and probability, as well as results of producing any firearm in a timely manner. I think it'd add to the discussion.

Not more than Roadhouse Quotes would, but it'd still add to it.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I pocket carry much of the time. The guy with the visible holster maybe faster on the clock than
me, but he is also the first guy to get shot when the maniac shoots up the dinner.CITATION REQUIRED I also did a draw
and shoot with a board member here a few years back and he beat me to the target, but by a slim
margin. Given any kind of handicap, um say like the bad guy not seeing my gun, I could on occasion
beat him to the first shot.

Also, there is middle ground between open carry and pocket carry, such as concealed OWB/IWB.

I really don't give a shit one way or another. If you're gonna pocket carry, get a pocket holster and train with it. I just hate half-assed "You will die because but I won't because" logic.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

This thread is full of win.

Even though I am decidely un-Australian in this regard, for the majority of my countrymen the thong (flip flops) are our official national footwear. This thread has made me wonder if this is the actual reason we are not allowed to go armed in public as private citizens.

On Topic: Out of purely academic interest anybody (Phil I'm looking at you here) know off the top of their head what ECQC has to say on pocket pistols/pocket revolvers specifically/pocket holster draws when engaged?

Everyone's doing such a good job at keeping a heated discussion civillised that my chance of a Free Courtesy of Vicarious_Lee Asesino Del Zombi Tee Shirt by quothing the line "Be Nice" from Roadhouse is slim to none. Damn it, an armed society really is a polite society.

-

[the_alias]

Maybe I'm biased here because I just spent money on buying some Vibram 5 finger shoes and I'm defensive because I wear them a lot.

I wear them a lot as well AND don't carry a gun!

Do I win ?

I also have an intense hatred of flip-flops.
Anyhow my main point:

Keep it civil guys I now do want to see crypto's test thingy and I'm sure others do as well.

[Regular Guy]

You know what's nice and cool and all fluffy bunnies. As much of an ass as I'm being about this and as much as our opinions differ, this is damn civil for an internet debate that started as PistolPete righteously clowning me.


FUCK-IN' BRAVO ZS.

Ninja: I'm going to try to get to the range this weekend or at least this month and do some timing of pocket draws vs. IWB draws. I'll do some drills as well. If I can, I'll video.

[Maverick299]

Also, Mav, that is one sexy revolver. I'd still hate to have to reload under stress

Oh there won't be any reloading, that one is for pulling the trigger until it goes click. After the smoke clears and I check to make sure those magnums didn't dismantle my hand, and if there is someone/something still standing, you will hear me clip-clopping in the other direction as fast as my flip-flops will carry me!

The revovler isn't my only weapon, nor is it the only one that gets carried, and it would be my last choice if I thought I was going into a situation that required on the move reloads. It gets called into duty when I don't feel like wearing something heavy that covers the one I sometimes wear on my hip.

[phil_in_cs]

On Topic: Out of purely academic interest anybody (Phil I'm looking at you here) know off the top of their head what ECQC has to say on pocket pistols/pocket revolvers specifically/pocket holster draws when engaged?
-

Position before Acquisition. Never attempt to access a tool (gun, knife, pepper, sap, etc) unless you control your opponents limb on the side the weapon is on. Things on your belt and in your pockets will be discovered by your enemy while you roll. While getting a waved knife to open when you draw it may work 75% of the time, it will work 100% of the time when your enemy snatches it from your pocket.

Those all apply to any tool you are trying to acquire. No matter where you carry a pistol (hip, appendix, pocket, ankle, shoulder, small of back, etc) there will be times when it is easier to get to than others. For really difficult draws, such as pocket or ankle, you must have more control of your opponent.

If I am entangled I am unlikely to get my P32 out. Entangled I will use empty hand skills or a contact weapon. However, getting entangled is something I know (from experience) I want to avoid at all costs. If circumstances dictate that I can't have a full size pistol, I would much rather have a P32 than be required to close up and go hands on with someone.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

On Topic: Out of purely academic interest anybody (Phil I'm looking at you here) know off the top of their head what ECQC has to say on pocket pistols/pocket revolvers specifically/pocket holster draws when engaged?
-

Position before Acquisition. Never attempt to access a tool (gun, knife, pepper, sap, etc) unless you control your opponents limb on the side the weapon is on. Things on your belt and in your pockets will be discovered by your enemy while you roll. While getting a waved knife to open when you draw it may work 75% of the time, it will work 100% of the time when your enemy snatches it from your pocket.

Those all apply to any tool you are trying to acquire. No matter where you carry a pistol (hip, appendix, pocket, ankle, shoulder, small of back, etc) there will be times when it is easier to get to than others. For really difficult draws, such as pocket or ankle, you must have more control of your opponent.

If I am entangled I am unlikely to get my P32 out. Entangled I will use empty hand skills or a contact weapon. However, getting entangled is something I know (from experience) I want to avoid at all costs. If circumstances dictate that I can't have a full size pistol, I would much rather have a P32 than be required to close up and go hands on with someone.

Thanks Phil.

-

[PistolPete]

I'm amazed this thread made it to page 7. And somewhat entertained. All of the real problems in the world must have been solved for people to spend so much time debating what seems to me a pretty unsubstantial topic. Also, this is the sort of gun snobbery that turns off newbies big time. Remember 10 years ago when the 1911 guys mocked the dudes carrying the G19's 'cause 9mm is only for pussies? Guess what? Anyone emotionally bashing pocket pistols has now assumed the role of 1911 curmudgeon. Do you know how you know you're old? When you're afraid of new products and different ways of doing things. Go buy a Garand or something to make yourself feel better.

So, this is how I look at the topic.

Flip flops suck ass in any tactical situation.
Any gun is better than no gun
A big ass gun in a holster that's easy to get to is superior to a small gun that's harder to get to. That's why cops open carry service pistols.
The best place to carry a gun if you need it is in your hand. (this is basic, but needed to be stated)
People make choices every day where they balance safety and risk against convenience.

Sometimes I ride a motorcycle without being fully geared up in the best crash gear. Usually when it's hot. I'm taking on additional risk so I don't sweat my ass off. It's strictly convenience. When I bought my last car I could have bought an awd Volvo. I didn't, I chose something that isn't as safe but offers other perks.

I'm way more likely to die in a fiery crash than in a gun fight. So if I make concessions for convenience in motorized transportation, like every one else in this conversation, it makes sense that I'm going to make concessions regarding my carry gun sometimes. Because honestly, there are some days I don't feel like spending the whole day with my FAL held at low ready. So since I can't have a rifle in my hands I choose a pistol. I choose that pistol based on what's comfortable in my outfit. Yes, I put my comfort first sometimes. Just like when I engage in other activities that offer risk.

Many people with more experience and industry respect than anyone here, like Michael Bane, regularly advocate pocket pistols. One of the reasons is it's the only place where you can carry a gun and put your hand on it in conditional yellow. You don't have to wait for an actual threat or a condition red sort of deal. You can say "Hey, I'm walking my hot boyfriend to the car in a shitty part of town where the strip clubs are, so I'll keep a hand in my pocket where my gun is".

Now from that casual position I will put my money on Crypto every time to present a gun before Regular Guy or LastOne who have to sweep a cover garment and get their hands on their Glock 17L or 1911 Longslide or whatever big-ass pistol they think they need to carry. Does that mean everyone should carry a pocket gun? Hell no. Most people I see at the range can't shoot them for shit. Does that mean it's a viable option? Yes. Yes it does.

And honestly, anyone who is emotional about how much these guns suck and how they are going to cost somebody their life needs to step back and prioritize risks in their life. And maybe chill a bit, go for a jog or something. Those cheap ass tires you've ran for 5,000 miles past their useful lifespan, that 7th cigarette you've had today and that pound of chicken wings you scarfed down last night are a fuckton more likely to kill your ass than where you keep your pistol.

Eh, that's my .02 anyway.

[Regular Guy]

Just real quick, that was a bit pointed Pete.

Pocket carry isn't that this is new to me. I've pocket carried for years. I just came to the conclusion its far from optimal. I'm not out to ban it and I'm far from emotional about it. In my experiences it's too far from optimal for me.

I don't like 1911s either.

[Maverick299]

Flip flops suck ass in any tactical situation

Good thing I don't find myself in tactical situations on a day to day basis or I'd be screwed!

I didn't realize the wide spread ZS hatred toward flip flops, but I do find it rather funny that it keeps coming up and that it gets that many people's panties in a wad!

[PistolPete]

Just real quick, that was a bit pointed Pete.

Pocket carry isn't that this is new to me. I've pocket carried for years. I just came to the conclusion its far from optimal. I'm not out to ban it and I'm far from emotional about it. In my experiences it's too far from optimal for me.

Perhaps you aren't emotional, but you are certainly invested in your opinion. Otherwise you wouldn't have bothered typing out thousands of words on the subject.

I don't like 1911s either.

And I know. That may be why I made the analogy.

Good thing I don't find myself in tactical situations on a day to day basis or I'd be screwed!

I didn't realize the wide spread ZS hatred toward flip flops, I find it rather funny that it keeps coming up!

I spend a lot of weekends barefoot*, I'm certainly not hating on people who choose comfortable footwear. But yeah, ZS'ers tend to be "sturdy footwear all the time" sorta people.

*these weekends are the ones spent at the lake, you wouldn't catch my ass in flip-flops anywhere that isn't adjacent to water, like a pool or lake

[Regular Guy]

Perhaps you aren't emotional, but you are certainly invested in your opinion. Otherwise you wouldn't have bothered typing out thousands of words on the subject.

Yes, that is very true, I'm invested in my opinion. I'm very invest in other ones as well. I guess, it would be very easy to say I'm a opinionated son of a bitch. And anyone saying that, they'd be right.

Fake Edit: Carrying a FAL at low ready all day would make my arms tired.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Sometimes I ride a motorcycle without being fully geared up in the best crash gear. Usually when it's hot. I'm taking on additional risk so I don't sweat my ass off. It's strictly convenience. When I bought my last car I could have bought an awd Volvo. I didn't, I chose something that isn't as safe but offers other perks.

This is a bit off topic, unless you're talking about riding in chuck taylors, shorts, and a wifebeater with no helmet. I think there's a "sanity line" that tell me that I don't need an Alpine Stars fireproof tracksuit to ride everyday at highway speed, nor do I need to wear steel-toe boots and a low-pro plate carrier day to day. On the other hand, I will not ride at anything near highway speeds without a helmet, jacket, gloves, and sturdy footwear.

Here's a better analogy though (as far as pocket pistols concern me) when you started riding, did you take any preparations (starting in a parking lot, ready the manuals, talking to riders, taking classes) or did you hop on wearing mostly inferior gear and just assume that you were going to be alright because you could see all the other cars on the road?

I don't care what or how people carry, but I stand by my basic points earlier. Holster it right, and practice getting it and getting it ready when you need it. Beyond that, I really have no dog in this fight. Pocket carry is as least 200 years old, by my reading of period pop-culture (Watson didn't carry IWB) anjd even the pocket autos like the PPK and the Beretta Tomcat are older than most of the board members.

And don't wear flip-flops in a situation where you might need to move quickly.

[TheLastOne]

Know what's worse than flip flops? Fucking kilts. Except for the ability to conceal a KSG up there.




Take it easy pete, you're gonna get us all riled up again.