Areial travel?

[Slugg]

I saw some older posts about this, but I'm guessing aerial travel has changed in the last 4-5 years so here goes.

Has anyone come across some affordable(under 5Grand) private aerial travel? Something like the Powered Parachute/hang-glider or other Ultralight Aircraft.

The problem I keep running into is the range on them is not further than 100miles and costing around 10,000USD for even used ones. I was just seeing if anyone came across a way to turn this hobby into an actual means of transportation.

[ineffableone]

Part of the problem might be the new regulations on ultralights reclassifying them as sport craft and needing licensing to fly. Before anyone could fly ultralights with no pilot training, now to fly you have to have at least a sport pilot licence.

This took cheep ultralights and made it more expensive and time consuming to be allowed to fly them essentially making them unrealistic for most the people interested in them.

To find something under $5K your probably looking at something in kit form that you have to still buy other parts for or something quite used.

[ineffableone]

As for low range, well your going to have that issue with any lower cost plane. Anything small enough to be low cost will have a fairly limited range.

[shiddymunkie]

I always thought a powered parachute / powered paraglider would be an excellent option to have in a disaster scenario. Here is a good comparison between the two, I suggest you check it out to understand the pros and cons of a PPC vs a PPG. In my personal opinion, any sort of practical aerial vehicle (for the average joe) is probably not going to work well when it comes to transporting much cargo other than one or two people. So if you are imagining being able to load up this vehicle with your family, all of your stuff, and then fly away into the sunset, you can think again. I see these more being used as emergency escape when other forms of travel aren't possible, to patrol or survey and area aerially, and maybe even to discreetly transport small amounts of cargo from point A to point B.

A PPC / PPG is, IMO, the best option for personal aerial travel. Its by far the cheapest and most practical way to go about it. They can fly as high as 10,000+ ft, or as low as 1 meter. Can be flown as fast as 40 mph, or as slow as a brisk walk. You can land it on a dime (like a 1 meter x 1 meter square) and take off in under 50 ft. If the engine fails, or you loose power, you and you vehicle will safely float down to the ground instead of crashing and burning like in a plane or helicopter. A 5 gallon tank will give you 3-4 hours of flight time, so its not expensive to fly. The only downside I see is that it can't be comfortable flown in medium winds, and is dangerous in medium to high winds...but aircraft that don't have this problem are usually far outside of what you average Joe can afford/store/transport/etc -- so its either something like this or nothing at all. Below I'll compare the two in terms of disaster applications.

PPC (Powered Parachute)


Pro's
- Can carry two people comfortably, or one person and a decent amount of gear
- Has a more powerful engine to accommodate the extra weight of another person/extra gear
- Also typically can go faster than a PPG because of the larger engine
- The larger canopy (parachute) required can also give the vehicle more stability

Con's
- Is relatively large (6ft x 10 ft) and heavy (several hundred pounds) and so will require a trailer or large truck to transport
- This also means it will be more difficult to have it "on hand" and ready to go
- Its large size/weight means it take more distance to take off, and cannot be maneuvered as well as a PPG (though still very good)
- Tend to be more expensive because of the larger engine, more extensive chassis, and larger canopy.

PPG (Powered Paraglider)


Pro's
- Absolutely tiny for an aircraft, some being only 65 lbs!
- These can also be broken down / reassembled in a few minutes, which means it'll fit into just about any car.
- Can switch between being worn directly on the back, or can be attached to a trike (that go-kart looking frame with wheels)
- Typically cheaper because of the smaller motor, lack of a trike (if you choose not to get one), and smaller canopy
- Can be maneuvered with surgical precision, and with practice, can take off with just a few running steps (think < 20 ft)!

Con's
Most cons revolve around the fact that they are not really designed to carry two people (or one person and a lot of gear). Yes, you can buy a two person trike/harness and use it with a PPG, but then you will also need to get a more powerful motor to accommodate the extra weigh you'll be trying to fly, as well as a larger canopy. This means, even without the trike, it won't be as light or small as it originally was (with the larger motor, bigger chute, etc).


Conclusion
I have been looking at these for a few years now, and with everything I said above, I feel the PPG is the superior option. Not only can it be smaller, lighter, cheaper, and more manuverable -- it's also more versatile. It can become everything that a PPC is, but can still be converted back into PPG depending on your needs. If you haven't checked out youtube for PPC or PPG videos, you should. They have some good stuff on their.

[shiddymunkie]

I saw some older posts about this, but I'm guessing aerial travel has changed in the last 4-5 years so here goes.

Has anyone come across some affordable(under 5Grand) private aerial travel? Something like the Powered Parachute/hang-glider or other Ultralight Aircraft.

The problem I keep running into is the range on them is not further than 100miles and costing around 10,000USD for even used ones. I was just seeing if anyone came across a way to turn this hobby into an actual means of transportation.

As far as getting one of these at under $5000, its definitely doable if you go used. PPGTrader.com is probably going to be your best bet. You may have to take a road trip to get a good deal, but it could be well worth one sacrificed weekend and $100 - $200 in gas (or having it shipped cross country).

With regard to going more than 100 miles, something like a PPG has a restriction of no more than 5 gallons of fuel. This law is what's going to limit your distance, not so much the technology (so I wouldn't hold my breath for a break through that'll change this any time soon.) If you are talking about a disaster scenario where you simply HAVE to go further than what 5 gallons can do for you, and while I cannot advise it because it's illegal, it's not impossible (or even difficult) to attach a larger tank. Unfortunately they haven't come far with electric PPGs in the last 5 years or so, but if anything will be the solution to your problem, it will be some sort of new battery...perhaps something like IBM's new light-weight, high density, lithium-air battery.

In any case, you can go much further than 100 miles if you fly a PPG strategically, i.e. climbing in elevation, shutting down the motor, and taking advantage of a PPG's glide ratio, which varies from 3:1 to 6:1. Since a PPG has a climb ratio of about 3:1, with a single 10,000 ft ascension you will travel 3,000 horizontally, and then can travel another 60,000 ft unpowered. That's 12 miles per ascension. And with a climb rate of 300-800 ft/min, assuming 3.5 hours of fuel, you should be able to do this between 16 and 17 times before running out of fuel on a 5 gallon tank. In other words, you could theoretically go about 200 miles. Not great, but its the only thing that is in your price range...by far. Multiply your price range by 10x - 20x, and then you can start getting some real distance out of an aircraft...but then you have to worry about licenses, storage, runways, etc etc.


But for fun, here are some videos to get you motivated and wanting a PPG!

Low flying awesomeness!


High flying awesomeness!


From unloading, to flying, to fully packed up again in 3 minutes and 15 seconds.


PPG with 2 Person trike, awesome landing in a neighborhood!

[shiddymunkie]

I don't mean to blow up this thread, but I just thought of something that might help. There is something similar to a PPG that has a much greater glide ratio, in exchange for less safety/maneuverability. It's call an Airtrike, and is basically a paramotored-hanglider. It has a glide ratio of 17:1, and so with each 10,000 ascension, you could get a total of about 33 miles of travel. Or with a 5 gallon tank (it's the law with all ultralights), you can get a little over 500 miles. That's 100+ mpg dude -- if that's not efficient enough for you for a flying machine, then what you are looking for is a tad unrealistic. You'll either have to accept the limit of 5 gallons of fuel in an ultralight, or accept that what you are looking for is more than a simple ultralight, which means drastically increasing your budget. Even an Airtrike is like $25k new

[wamba]

I like the idea of combining a powered climb with cutting the power & gliding to conserve fuel. Now I don't have any experience with powered parachutes but something I experienced while skydiving was that you can gain altitude by exploiting thermals. More than once I gained a thousand feet in altitude just by applying a little bit of brake while passing over asphalt or even freshly worked ground. Just tossing that out as another possible way to extend the range.

Maybe a guy could preposition supplies along the route, a couple of MRE's, a few bottles of water, a partial roll of TP, & 5gal of treated gas wouldn't take up much room.

[Blacksmith]

You should also look into the legality of flying them in the area that you plan on moving into as well. Not to mention the effect certain disasters might have on the airspace in your area. I doubt the ANG would shoot you down but you never know.

[shiddymunkie]

I like the idea of combining a powered climb with cutting the power & gliding to conserve fuel. Now I don't have any experience with powered parachutes but something I experienced while skydiving was that you can gain altitude by exploiting thermals. More than once I gained a thousand feet in altitude just by applying a little bit of brake while passing over asphalt or even freshly worked ground. Just tossing that out as another possible way to extend the range.

Maybe a guy could preposition supplies along the route, a couple of MRE's, a few bottles of water, a partial roll of TP, & 5gal of treated gas wouldn't take up much room.

Yeah, they are responsive to thermals (especially the lighter, smaller PPGs).

You should also look into the legality of flying them in the area that you plan on moving into as well. Not to mention the effect certain disasters might have on the airspace in your area. I doubt the ANG would shoot you down but you never know.

Hmm, I wonder if you would show up on radar flying something like this?

[Blacksmith]

You should also look into the legality of flying them in the area that you plan on moving into as well. Not to mention the effect certain disasters might have on the airspace in your area. I doubt the ANG would shoot you down but you never know.

Hmm, I wonder if you would show up on radar flying something like this?[/quote]


Yes and no. Most of the radar they use for air traffic control you would not show up on. That is not the only thing out there however. If someone was looking for airborne threats you would show up.

[shiddymunkie]

And if I wore a tin foil hat?

[silentpoet]

There is also the possibility of being up in the air where every random yahoo will think it is open duck season.

[shiddymunkie]

There is also the possibility of being up in the air where every random yahoo will think it is open duck season.

You can fly 10,000+ feet high, no one will be able to even see you at that altitude, much less hit you with a bullet. The exception would be military of course.

[Blacksmith]

There is also the possibility of being up in the air where every random yahoo will think it is open duck season.

You can fly 10,000+ feet high, no one will be able to even see you at that altitude, much less hit you with a bullet. The exception would be military of course.

That is who I was talking about. By all means wear the tin foil hat. You will show up better. Flying above 3000' I believe is illegal in the US with these types air craft. But I would not worry about ground fire past 500' anyway. It is nearly impossible to hit a moving airborne target on the fly without massed ground fire or an air defense weapon from that range anyway. At 3000' you would be untouchable from ANY civilian ground fire weapons as they would be all out of range.

What I was talking about was another 9/11 type attack or something similar where the military was called in to look for airborne threats. If the FAA issues another grounding order and someone sees you flying around they will likely be very confused. Confused enough to shoot you/ force you down? Don't know that would really depend.

[shiddymunkie]

That is who I was talking about. By all means wear the tin foil hat. You will show up better. Flying above 3000' I believe is illegal in the US with these types air craft. But I would not worry about ground fire past 500' anyway. It is nearly impossible to hit a moving airborne target on the fly without massed ground fire or an air defense weapon from that range anyway. At 3000' you would be untouchable from ANY civilian ground fire weapons as they would be all out of range.

What I was talking about was another 9/11 type attack or something similar where the military was called in to look for airborne threats. If the FAA issues another grounding order and someone sees you flying around they will likely be very confused. Confused enough to shoot you/ force you down? Don't know that would really depend.

No 3000' limit in the US, as PPGs are considered ultralights. Some PPC's (such as two-seaters) fall into the light-sports craft category, and require a license. On a related note, how low do you think you would need to fly in order to avoid radar? One of the benefits of a PPG is being able to fly as low as you want (even if just a few feet off the ground). If I were in a situation where I needed to fly somewhere, but didn't want to show up on a somebody radar (literally), what would be the maximum height I could do this and still remain discreet (assuming doing so was legal)?

[Holger Danske]

You would have to be low enough that you would probably be operating contrary to 14 cfr 103.9.......(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property.

[shiddymunkie]

You would have to be low enough that you would probably be operating contrary to 14 cfr 103.9.......(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property.

Do you have any insight into how the law interprets "a manner that creates hazard to other persons or property"? What general standards do they go by? While it makes sense, that law seems vague enough to be applied to almost any kind of flying (as the very act of flying could be considered hazardous, in of itself)

[Blacksmith]

That is who I was talking about. By all means wear the tin foil hat. You will show up better. Flying above 3000' I believe is illegal in the US with these types air craft. But I would not worry about ground fire past 500' anyway. It is nearly impossible to hit a moving airborne target on the fly without massed ground fire or an air defense weapon from that range anyway. At 3000' you would be untouchable from ANY civilian ground fire weapons as they would be all out of range.

What I was talking about was another 9/11 type attack or something similar where the military was called in to look for airborne threats. If the FAA issues another grounding order and someone sees you flying around they will likely be very confused. Confused enough to shoot you/ force you down? Don't know that would really depend.

No 3000' limit in the US, as PPGs are considered ultralights. Some PPC's (such as two-seaters) fall into the light-sports craft category, and require a license. On a related note, how low do you think you would need to fly in order to avoid radar? One of the benefits of a PPG is being able to fly as low as you want (even if just a few feet off the ground). If I were in a situation where I needed to fly somewhere, but didn't want to show up on a somebody radar (literally), what would be the maximum height I could do this and still remain discreet (assuming doing so was legal)?

I could say but I would have to kill you first.

The answer is it depends. On how far you are away from the radar and a host of other issues.

Here are the FAA limits on ultralights.

http://www.usppa.org/Resources/FARs/part103_far.htm

[shiddymunkie]

Hmm, I will need to look into this one more.

103.15 Operations over congested areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.

Firstly, what constitutes "congested", people per square mile? And does this only apply to certain altitudes? And what the hell is an "open air assembly of persons"?

[Holger Danske]

You would have to be low enough that you would probably be operating contrary to 14 cfr 103.9.......(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property.

Do you have any insight into how the law interprets "a manner that creates hazard to other persons or property"? What general standards do they go by? While it makes sense, that law seems vague enough to be applied to almost any kind of flying (as the very act of flying could be considered hazardous, in of itself)

Well it kinda depends, around here we have radar hanging from a tethered balloon at 15,000 feet that looks down. You would probably need to be below rooftop level which will probably get you in trouble. Some of the larger cities have pretty good terminal area radar that could keep you down there too. Also if you are low enough to hit somebodies house or tree or other property because of a downdraft, mechanical issue or brain fart that could count. If you scare a cow and it stops giving milk (true story) that would also be a no-no. If you stay 500' above ground you are usually safe from scaring motorists and cows. And if your way out in the country that may keep you under radar too.

[Holger Danske]

Hmm, I will need to look into this one more.

103.15 Operations over congested areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.

Firstly, what constitutes "congested", people per square mile? And does this only apply to certain altitudes? And what the hell is an "open air assembly of persons"?

Congested area has not really been defined, but open air assembly would be a concert, sporting event etc.

[Blacksmith]

Also 2000' above a wildlife area. Lots of rules out there.

[Holger Danske]

Also 2000' above a wildlife area. Lots of rules out there.

Those wildlife areas are outlined on sectional charts and all aircraft have to stay out. Ultralights are also restricted from operating in a lot of controlled airspace, and cannot operate at night.

[shiddymunkie]

As with conventional aircraft there are some restrictions as to where you can fly. PPGs are restricted from flying within clouds and must maintain specific cloud clearance separation and in-flight forward visibility. While conventional aircraft are restricted from flying at less than 500 feet from people, structures, and vessels (except during takeoff and landing) PPGs are not constrained by that restriction. However, PPGs are restricted from flying over "congested areas" or over any open-air assembly of persons. PPGs and conventional aircraft are restricted from taking off or landing in charted National Park Service Areas, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Areas, and U.S. Forest Service Areas without authorization from the respective agency. Furthermore, like conventional aircraft, PPGs are requested to maintain a minimum of 2000 foot AGL altitude above the surface of charted National Parks, Monuments, Seashores, Recreation Areas, Scenic Riverways, Wilderness Areas, Wildlife Refuges, Wildlife/Game Ranges, and areas administered by the National Park Service. PPGs are restricted from operations in certain airspace without prior authorization from the Air Traffic Control facility or controlling agency having jurisdiction over that airspace. Likewise a PPG pilot must be aware that there may be temporary flight restrictions in the vicinity of disaster/hazard areas, in the proximity of the Presidential and other parties, in the proximity of space flight operations, or in the vicinity of aerial demonstrations and major sporting events. Local state, county, and city governments may have restrictions on taking off or landing on certain public lands. All of those constraints may seem complicated and overly limiting to your freedom but in practice they are not and your instruction at Powered ParaSports will make them all understandable and clear. Common sense dictates that a PPG should not fly over water at an altitude below which a power off glide to dry land is possible. Typically PPG pilots fly to and from private land with the permission from the landowner.

As I take it, there is technically no altitude restrictions on how low you can fly with PPGs -- except over certain areas as outlined above. With that being said, you'd be free to fly at 50 AGL if you want -- so that part of the question is settled. Now on to flying over "congested areas". Hereis a website that has done a good amount of digging on what "congested" is supposed to mean.

Now, to find something on "creating hazards to other persons or property"