Is a cook off an ND?

[Liff]

Situation: There I am at the machine gun shoot, shooting at the radio controlled plane, missing tremendously just like everyone else on the line. About 8 magazine dumps later, there I am, rifle pointed down range, waiting for the plane to return to my field of fire, finger straight and completely off of the trigger. So with my finger straight and completely off of the trigger, a round cooks off. I drop the magazine, lock the bolt to the rear, and let this plane go.

More background: This was a new upper for me, normally I use quad rail La Rue uppers because they seem to me to cool down better. I was using my brother's Colt upper, double heat shield hand guard versions. This upper cools down a lot slower than a quad rail hand guard. I have done worse abuse to uppers in the past and never had this issue before. I personally blame the hand guards for not allowing the barrel to cool faster and not the fact that some idiot just ran 240 rounds through the barrel in less than 5 minutes.

My vote is that it was an...., well..., I am not sure. The UCMJ http://usmilitary.about.com/library/mil ... 134-20.htm says, "(1) That the accused discharged a firearm;" and I did not discharge the firearm. I didn't have any physical contact with the trigger. That is mitigated by the fact that due to my actions, the firearm discharged.

What do you think?

[raptor]

The round cooked off due to your use of the weapon. Your firing made the chamber hot enough to cook off the round. You should have known this and kept the chamber empty...so yes IMO there was negligence on your part...thus it was an ND.

When firing full auto a lot...unless there is a reason like a human wave attack...you should empty the chamber of the weapon when not firing, if for no other reason to aid in cooling (albeit a very minor amount) airflow and heat discharge.

I assume nothing was hurt except your pride...in which case suck it up and take your punishment which I am sure other ZS'ers will happily heap upon you.

Personally I think the sudden firing and subsequent embarrassment which is obviously enough to post this is adequate punishment.

Edited to add:
For sake of clarity when I say negligent I am not saying it is a legal negligence. I would also say that this is not gross negligence but rather simple or contributory...kinda like shit happens and you should know it can happen so you should have taken more care...as opposed to whooooha lets see if this cooks off a round.

[Liff]

As I said, the reason the M16 fired the round was due to my use of the M16. The grey area is that I didn't touch the firing mechanism at all in any way.

Good point about the open bolt, and I did just that the rest of the weekend.

This is also why all belt fed full auto mg's (that I know of) fire from the open bolt.

The round went downrange during a hot or live range time. No one else noticed. I just think it is one of those LFMF moments. I have learned from other's fails, just my turn to pass along an experience. Also, learn from my win: The rifle was pointed in a safe direction at all times.

[Braxton]

I hope its not. I had a hang fire last Saturday. A full second passed between me pulling the trigger and the pistol going off.

This was with new factory ammo, I don't shoot reloads.




Shit like cooking off rounds and hang fires are why you keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

[Kutter_0311]

No, dude, you're good. Especially if you're following UCMJ guidance. That shit happens. I once had to stand stradling the hot barrel of my SAW after a 'dog and pony show' range so none of the very nice elderly VIP's would burn their leg on it. Automatic weapons get hot when you shoot the shit out of them, and sometimes that's what you gotta do. As long as you kept it pointed in a safe direction and nobody got shot, ALL GOOD, BRAH! Leave a hot gun pointed at a porta-shitter with ammo on the feed tray, though, and you'll get fried when that fucker cooks off into a runaway gun. Fry an old lady's leg on a hot barrel you should have been guarding, and you'll find out just how 'general' Article 134 can be. It will not matter that you were told to burn up all the drums meant for the other 2 SAW's that went down in addition to the 1500rds you originally had to lug down that fire & movement range. It's your weapon, and you must control it to the best of your ability. Shit happens, that's why certain safety rules and procedures exist. You ain't the first to cook off a round, just don't be the guy that killed somebody because he happened to flag them the same second it went BANG...

[exiledtoIA]

Yes.
Your actions lead to the cookoff. There were steps you could have taken to prevent it. You didn't take those steps. Round cookedoff - your fault.

[JTNieman]

The round cooked off due to your use of the weapon. Your firing made the chamber hot enough to cook off the round. You should have known this and kept the chamber empty...so yes IMO there was negligence on your part...thus it was an NG.

When firing full auto a lot...unless there is a reason like a human wave attack...you should empty the chamber of the weapon when not firing, if for no other reason to aid in cooling (albeit a very minor amount) airflow and heat discharge.

I assume nothing was hurt except your pride...in which case suck it up and take your punishment which I am sure other ZS'ers will happily heap upon you.

Personally I think the sudden firing and subsequent embarrassment which is obviously enough to post this is adequate punishment.

I agree with this post entirely.

Part of the negligence is shooting a gun until it was hot enough to cook a round off, when under leisurely activity. It wasn't intentional to shoot until they cooked off, like some do for various reasons (shits and giggles, or testing/evaluation) so it was unintentional and thus negligent to a degree.

Shit happens though, and following the rest of the safety rules keeps it from being a tragedy. Now if it happened when the line was COLD, then absolutely you'd be in one big shit storm for having a hot chamber, but that was not so, so no big deal. You sent lead down range in a safe direction on a hot range.

[leatherface_y2k]

You are entirely responsible for the condition of your weapon at all times. So yes, a "cook off" is squarely on your shoulders. It's a known but rare phenomenom and you should have been aware of the possibility. It's not an act of God, it's operator error.

[Kutter_0311]

I think any time you change the weapon's set-up in a way that affects it's cooling, you have to re-establish certain baselines.

Cook-offs happen sometimes.

[KYZHunters]

I hope its not. I had a hang fire last Saturday. A full second passed between me pulling the trigger and the pistol going off.

This was with new factory ammo, I don't shoot reloads.




Shit like cooking off rounds and hang fires are why you keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Braxton, a hang fire is definitely not a ND since it is an ammo failure.

[jamoni]

Range hot, it's just something that happens when you put a shit ton of ammo downrange. Yes, you should limit your bursts, but hey, that RC plane ain't gonna wait all day!
Range cold, that's a whole other ballgame.
Hell, I once had an M2 drop into a gunners lap because the pit wasn't shored up properly. It pinned his thumbs onto the trigger. I had to hold it upright until the assistant gunner could find the belt in all the sand and break it, and the whole time it was jackhammering this guy's nuts.
THAT'S a negligent discharge.

[Winston Smith]

Range hot, it's just something that happens when you put a shit ton of ammo downrange. Yes, you should limit your bursts, but hey, that RC plane ain't gonna wait all day!
Range cold, that's a whole other ballgame.
Hell, I once had an M2 drop into a gunners lap because the pit wasn't shored up properly. It pinned his thumbs onto the trigger. I had to hold it upright until the assistant gunner could find the belt in all the sand and break it, and the whole time it was jackhammering this guy's nuts.
THAT'S a negligent discharge.

That sounds like a nightmare! As far as cookoffs being a negligent discharge, I think you are responsible for what your weapon does at all times, but at the same time I've fired M16's continuously until the hand guards were smoking and still never had a cook off. It's so unlikely that one of these can happen that it's impossible to predict. That being said, if one does happen and you're following the NRA gun safety rules, you will:

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

and your cook off will give people a good scare and maybe some dirty drawers, but no one will be hurt.

[crypto]

The round cooked off due to your use of the weapon. Your firing made the chamber hot enough to cook off the round. You should have known this and kept the chamber empty...so yes IMO there was negligence on your part...thus it was an ND.

*snip*

For sake of clarity when I say negligent I am not saying it is a legal negligence.

Raptor, with all due respect, that logic is the legal definition of strict liability.



Using that logic, any car that overheats due to a blown radiator hose is operator negligence due to not having replaced it sooner.

I agree that on a hot range, cookoffs happen. If the range were cold and everyone was supposed to have cleared weapons, and you left one in the pipe? That would be negligent.

[Liff]

My take on the situation: Negligent discharge 100%. Forget about the different upper, I knew better and I shouldn't have run the gun that hard, then left a round in the chamber while waiting on the R-C plane to make the return pass.

The reason I started this topic was twofold. First, not every time that a firearm discharges without the user's intention is a 100% pure Negligent Discharge. There are shades of grey in this issue. The hang fire did not fire when the user intended it to, but we see that differently than someone saying, "I didn't know it wasn't loaded". And then there are issues like cook offs or mechanical failures that are somewhere in the middle.

The second is that when you are following all both of the safety rules, it is hard to get hurt. Liff's both firearm safety rules: 1) Don't touch the trigger until you intend to fire and 2) Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy. I know people make up other rules, but really, those two will do it.

[JTNieman]

The round cooked off due to your use of the weapon. Your firing made the chamber hot enough to cook off the round. You should have known this and kept the chamber empty...so yes IMO there was negligence on your part...thus it was an ND.

*snip*

For sake of clarity when I say negligent I am not saying it is a legal negligence.

Raptor, with all due respect, that logic is the legal definition of strict liability.



Using that logic, any car that overheats due to a blown radiator hose is operator negligence due to not having replaced it sooner.

I agree that on a hot range, cookoffs happen. If the range were cold and everyone was supposed to have cleared weapons, and you left one in the pipe? That would be negligent.

It's my opinion that lethal weaponry such as firearms should be operated and conducted in a manner consistent with 'strict liability' and drawing comparisons to tamer objects is illogical and misrepresentation. An overheating engine simply dies or loses power, allowing you to coast or limp to the nearest safe spot to stop.

[DarkAxel]

My gut says no, but my head says yes.

What kind of ammo were you using?

[raptor]

Raptor, with all due respect, that logic is the legal definition of strict liability.



Using that logic, any car that overheats due to a blown radiator hose is operator negligence due to not having replaced it sooner.

Indeed a hose bursting could very well be negligence. If there is recommended maintenance interval or a TBR time on a part and the person does not follow that advice then a burst hose can very well be negligence.

In this case common wisdom is that cook offs can occur if the weapon is fired in a manner to cause it to get hot. It is a recognized event so much so that it has a commonly recognized name a "cook off". It is a reasonably foreseeable event and as such the common advice to avoid it is to leave the chamber and empty.

This was a negative event which is common and foreseeable for which there is a reasonable and simple solution that was not followed. This is IMO a good illustration of negligence.

Like said I do not view this as gross negligence but rather simple negligence.

BTW It is not my intent to beat up the OP. There was no harm and IMO no foul.

Negligence (Lat. negligentia, from neglegere, to neglect, literally "not to pick up something") is a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances.[1] The area of tort law known as negligence involves harm caused by carelessness, not intentional harm.

[Liff]

Ammo was LC M855.

Raptor, no worries.

I guess another point is that regardless of what sent the round downrange, you are 100% responsible for every round you send downrange. ND or not.

[DarkAxel]

Ammo was LC M855.

Shouldn't be an ammo issue then.

[Einher]

If a cook-off is an ND, then what about a hang-fire? What about slam-firing?

At what level of mechanical malfunction or failure does it turn from ND to AD, or is it simply that an ND requires the addition of operator negligence?

This subject has made me curious.

[ptAltered]

If a cook-off is an ND, then what about a hang-fire? What about slam-firing?

At what level of mechanical malfunction or failure does it turn from ND to AD, or is it simply that an ND requires the addition of operator negligence?

This subject has made me curious.

No such thing as accidents.

A hang-fire isn't an accident, it's a malfunction on the part of the ammunition manufacturer. Slam-firing is an intentional method to subvert the designed firing mechanism and safeties integrated to it.

The negligence doesn't have to be the part of the operator of the firearm, it could be on the operator of the reloading press or the assembly line or the gunsmith bench.

[JTNieman]

Slam-firing is an intentional method to subvert the designed firing mechanism and safeties integrated to it.

That's... not completely true at all. That can be a FORM of slam-firing, but isn't, at all, the entirety of slam firing.

[ptAltered]

Slam-firing is an intentional method to subvert the designed firing mechanism and safeties integrated to it.

That's... not completely true at all. That can be a FORM of slam-firing, but isn't, at all, the entirety of slam firing.

For clarification, I meant releasing the firing pin by hitting the weapon in an area other than the trigger.

If a manufactures defect causes the weapon to fire as the cartridge is loaded it's still a negligence issue.

Thanks for reminding me that slam-fire means more than one thing.

[JTNieman]

Slam-firing is an intentional method to subvert the designed firing mechanism and safeties integrated to it.

That's... not completely true at all. That can be a FORM of slam-firing, but isn't, at all, the entirety of slam firing.

For clarification, I meant releasing the firing pin by hitting the weapon in an area other than the trigger.

If a manufactures defect causes the weapon to fire as the cartridge is loaded it's still a negligence issue.

Thanks for reminding me that slam-fire means more than one thing.

Yea, to the best of my knowledge, the most common example of a slam fire is a stuck firing pin in an otherwise non-fixed firing pin firearm, which was caused to stick due to contaminants, whether it be dirt/mud/snow/ice or simply not cleaning the cosmoline out of it after purchase, common to SKSs.

Typicaly though, it's negligence, but the "intentional" part is the one that stuck out to me. That was my only nitpick