Whats the law in Canada on first strike?

by **Dom LRS** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:07 am

Just for the unlikely occasion that this should occur again id appreciatte advice - I was going to work as normal following the wife - she's in her range rover me in mine as we do every day to work down the same stretch of road for the last 3 years
she suddenly slows down and i do the same as i realise she's stuck behind a wrangler doing 75km whereas the cruising speed is normally 100km so she waits for a safe chance & overtakes now i will say she is extreemly cautious driver and myself am a very defensive driver having started with motorcycles - Neither has had any accident or demirit in 11 years of driving in Canada and both have had good records in the US & UK respectivly, So when i get my chance i follow suit wait for a moment hit the ''Sport Mode' button on the console & floor it - no problem clear line of site full control air suspension has lowered itself to fast setting so truck is firm & tight everythings hunky dory, i pull alongside the wife at lights and signal im getting a coffee so turn right.

This is when it all goes Pete Tong as we say back in the UK, the guy in the wrangler is now alongside the wife i see an exchange i go to return then i realised he's peeling up to me - bugger ok i turn into Tim Hortens with this truck following up my tail ok think i see a spot right in front of the front window and door pull in stop ok check hand hatchet is in drivers door pocket (Gerber of course lol) i see the guy spring out of the wrangler and start snapping photos of my license plate think ok defuse so i leave truck - the guy completly looses his shite ranting on im an asshole and a dangerous driver and i shouldnt be on the road, i attempt to reason with him that he was causing a rolling roadblock by driving like my dead grandma - then he says he can make a citizens arrest so i said Do it then, he changes mind and continues ranting and then into my personal comfort zone so i guesture to clear him back to distance advising him that he does not want to do this and he needs to leave before it goes wrong for him, during this im calculating options (side kick to right knee, ridge hand to throat, punch to temple job done), but im thinking ok the main police station is next door could be a trainwreck ive never been arrested dont know the Canadian bail system wife will be pissed - So i just ranted back at him by this time he said his wife had died 6 months ago because of a similar driver blah blah so my parting words was maybe she's f*******g dead because she drove like you a f******g C**t, and went inside and got my coffee.

Now this is irking me for days part of me is thinking look the guy was driving all over the place at incosistant speeds and put my wife into a situation of having to make a manouvere she should not have to have done - she told me apparantly when he was alongside he was also taking her picture whilst he was moving, he obviously has grief issues IF his wife truly died - who knows it could have been HIS fault and he's looking for someone to blame for my part i know i did the right thing by not getting into a brawl and walked away with the last word (the girls at Tims told me the next day they all heard everything and loved my response) however had i been back in the UK we dont do this arguing pushing and shoving nonsense HAD i just dropped him then & there without him throwing the first Would i have had a viable defense that i took action to protect myself from possible assault by taking action OR would my wife be pissed and have to bail me out?

Im sure for most guys in this situation it must have gone through your head days later as you relive a situation, im actually a very nice calm person and i do not when driving put anyone at risk - heck i used to be a motorcycle courier in London so i know what aholes some drivers can be in fact im very conciliatary and yield the road, any advise what should i have done so i know next time? i dont know Canadian law compared to the UK - we know better than to attempt road rage it can result in a real mess etc

Cheers Dom

by **majorhavoc** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:36 am

I tried to read it, I really did. All I got out of it was something about a Tim Hortons, lots of swearing and a Gerber axe. And a headache. I gave up trying to make sense of it and decided to look for periods. So I could at least break it up into more manageable chunks.

I found two. And a question mark. Counting the end as punctuation, this entire post appears to be four, astonishingly long run-on sentences.

Sorry OP. You may have a point or a question buried in there some where. But in order tease it out, you're asking that the reader to mentally edit your writing first.

by **crypto** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:43 am

I tried, but I've got a bad red wine hangover this morning and it's just not happening. I started, but the words get all swimmy, and after I puzzled out the cockney slang for 'wrong' I threw in the towel.

Someone, distill this into plain English and post a summary please. I cant be arsed.

by **Fletch** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:52 am

Dom LRS wrote:Overtook a truck, driver got mad, I de-escalated the situation by calling him names; what would you do?

Cheers, Dom

by **ais4122** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:40 am

And you got out of your vehicle because..........? ???? Road rage is like is being in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, your still a retard. Drive on, and if he follows call the police and/or drive to the nearest precinct. Enough said.

by **Ad'lan** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:06 am

Dom LRS wrote:however had i been back in the UK we dont do this arguing pushing and shoving nonsense HAD i just dropped him then & there without him throwing the first Would i have had a viable defense that i took action to protect myself from possible assault by taking action OR would my wife be pissed and have to bail me out?

Had you been in the UK, and he'd been confronting you angrily, and you dropped him with the "hand hatchet" I don't think you'd have been doing so well from a legal position. Particularly as you checked it was there before the confrontation (Indicating intent to use it as a weapon). I would of course argue that if someone was angrily confronting you for no apparent reason it's entirely reasonable to grab the nearest item to fend them off, but whether the police or courts see it that way is another matter.

AFAIK Canada shares many aspects of the Commonwealth law and concepts of reasonable force, but you'd be better off speaking to the Canadian Police or a Canadian Lawyer. Legal Advice on the Internet is worth what you pay for it.

Was there a point during this incident where you would have gone for the guy but for legal concerns? Because that worries me a little. If you need to defend yourself, you need to defend yourself. If you felt you were at risk, as I understand the law, you have the right to act.

Though the Mrs. might have to bail you out while they determine if it was reasonable to feel at risk.

And as this is in WWYD, pull up in front of the police station that you mentioned.

by **Dom LRS** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:39 am

Ok granted late at night and i felt that best to explain the whole situation, my apologies for grammer & sentance composistion.

In summary If you are persued by an individual who has followed you in a car and you pull into a visible public area and he has cornered you - Then commences to yell & scream abuse in your face is it reasonable to throw the first punch to stop the situation from himself launching an attack on you?, as other people are trying to enter/leave the coffee shop and nobody wanted to get involved, I was waiting for him to strike but his anger was livid & constant and appeared to go on & on rather than what would appear say your peace and move on - his tirade seemed relentlessly long I wanted my morning coffee and i felt am i just going to have to stand here until A. He fizzles out & leaves B. He starts punching me

In other words Does a pre-emptive strike qualify as a reasonable defence? - I tried at first reasoning with the idiot - regards the Gerber that is there in case truck rolls over to break glass & its internal stowed tree saw is for cutting seat belts - (I was in a car when it caught fire years ago - 4 of us freaked as the central locking screwed up), I checked it was there in case the guy tried to attack my truck/me with a bat etc very unlikely i would actually pull that thing out unless it was a total Last resort ie guy comes running with baseball bat and i feel i am going to get killed - i was not advocating waving a malicous weopan about like Mad max 3 lol -I do not need weopans i spent years in tournaments freestyle full contact I am not an agressive guy but i am very able to handle myself with a good skillset but i do not normally get into street brawls if anything that respect for martial arts actually disciplines you from acting with hostility outside the dojo.

My apologies for use of Southern UK slang and some words people may find offensive however i tried to convey accuratly what exactly went down, Im sure many have been there after the moment thinking days later what went down IF they did the right thing - the way i see it the guy acted needlessly by first of all not allowing people to pass then acting irrationally by photographing other motorists in his quest to somehow report them - but to chase after someone into a public area and become confrontational and esculated could be a viewed as the agressor - Hence why i wanted to know if i had taken a path of action to physically hit that person 'barehanded' in order that i could leave safely - would i be judged at fault?

by **mystic_1** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:07 pm

If you attack someone who is not physically attacking you, how is that "self defense"?

In the end, he didn't attack you, so any belief you had that he was about to do so, was proven incorrect.

Can you legally assault someone for speaking words to you, where you live?

mystic_1

by **Kbourque3375** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:10 pm

While ego and machoism tells us stop and give that mother f***er a piece of my mind too tells us we gotta stop....why stop? The best way to defuse a situation is to not get into one in the first place. NOW that being said, had he pursued me and followed me to wherever I was going, then got in my face...shame on him. "officer Fife, this man followed me to my...job, this police station? this store...wherever..HIS actions led me to FEAR I was being threatened and that I may be about to be harmed. Here in the US...end of story. The first thing all of you better, if you were never in law enforcement or the military remember is that there is a use of force continuum. You attempted to get away from him, he followed, next rung on the ladder, you advised him to leave you alone, he persisted and followed further, so you either called out for help or used some non lethal use of force to eliminate the threat. He pulls a knife or gun Then and only then can you use deadly force. Now I know this wasn't a discussion so to speak on use of force but I felt like I needed to remind you that you have to follow this continuum on use of force. You can only use the amount of force necessary to stop the threat or attempt of bodily harm. Other rules apply if you are in your home or about to be carjacked, but in a parking lot or other place, a confrontation is questionable. The police and his attorney will find everything they can to use against you but if you have no other option but to act the way you did then the law is on your side. NOT so much saying I wouldn't have laid the guy out myself. But on the other hand, I would not have stopped unless 1 he ran me off the road, at which point I'd have shot him, or 2. I was at my destination or a police station and had no choice but to use force to get him away from me and/or my wife.

by **Dom LRS** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:13 pm

mystic_1 wrote:If you attack someone who is not physically attacking you, how is that "self defense"?

In the end, he didn't attack you, so any belief you had that he was about to do so, was proven incorrect.

Can you legally assault someone for speaking words to you, where you live?

mystic_1

I was looking at it from a technicality of this source below; & Absolutely heck No I AM not getting into that well publicized current event - not this discussion never - I hate politics and its not welcome - in answer IF the guy was "speaking words' and wasn't so animated then this whole spectacle would not of occurred.

Should have been a mutual exchange of single fingers as is the normal communication between disagreeing motorists - but to chase someone down to give them a heated rant that went on over 5 minutes is either he is a nut job or would have escalated - I just wanted to know that if that scenario unfortunately played over - Would i have had some degree of right to take action that would have ended the tirade and ensured that I wasn't pursued all over town?.

That happened to the wife 3 years ago pulled out over a 4 way then the guy chased her into town whilst the police were trying to find him - a year later he did it again whilst at the supermarket he tried to ram her then pursued her into the store - Finally the cops had video evidence and took action for stalking & threatening behavior.

In my situation i pulled into a public place - the police station is next door but there is no road access to it without getting back on the highway - Personally i would have been delighted if a cop was there I was hoping someone would have called
the point is i took evasive action but was pursued to another location & then felt cornered - I did not pursue him i drove away & left my car to go into the building knowing it was a public place.

Cheers

Dom

Stand-your-ground law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A stand-your-ground law states that a person may use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat first. In some cases, a person may use deadly force in public areas without a duty to retreat. Under these legal concepts, a person is justified in using deadly force in certain situations and the "stand your ground" law would be a defense or immunity to criminal charges and civil suit. The difference between immunity and a defense is that an immunity bars suit, charges, detention and arrest. A defense, such as an affirmative defense, permits a plaintiff or the state to seek civil damages or a criminal conviction but may offer mitigating circumstances that justifies the accuser's conduct.

by **BadIntel** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:47 pm

I just read the first line of the article (Wikipedia is also not necessarily a place to go for legal advice...) and it said something about a reasonable belief that you are in danger of a physical threat.

To me, working in loss prevention and security for a long time now, this means you had better have exhausted EVERYTHING, including walking/running away, going into public buildings, calling for help, etc, before you even square up to this guy. For it to be a viable physical threat, there has to be NO other option. You're in front of a store. You aren't cornered in an alley or anything. He has been standing there arguing with you and taking pictures. That is maybe a 10% threat right there, if you wanted to put a value to it, since he *could* throw the camera at you, but that 1. Won't do much damage, and 2. Is easy to dodge and then de-escalate or escape. If you go deck that guy, YOU will be the aggressor, will be in the wrong, and you would be sure to be sued for a lot of money.

To any onlookers, it's obvious he's just angry and trying to document some "injustice" he feels you committed against him (which, if you or your wife cut him off or passed him in an unsafe manner, you technically did). I've had shoplifters try to justify fighting with me and throwing the first punch by saying "I thought you were attacking me!", even when I walk up and verbally and visually (with a badge) identify myself as security and just say I need to talk with them. This is why your story irks me..... Your reasoning sounds exactly like those people:

"Mr Turd-waffle, why did you just neck chop that guy taking pictures of you and your car?".

"I felt in danger in front of this busy store next to a police station because this guy was taking photos of me. I was scared!"

If you ask my opinion (which you obviously are with this thread), you're just pissed off that some guy yelled at you and, being macho, are looking for a justification to lay someone out.

Tl;dr version: no, you can't legally attack someone in this type of situation and expect to be considered in "the right". Stop trying to justify it.

by **MVegas** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:52 pm

Honestly? I would have ignored him and gone inside for my coffee. A man has to have his priorities straight.
If I were genuinely concerned for my safety (like he's waiting outside making the "I'm gonna cut your throat" gesture through the window LOL) I would have called the police while in line for said coffee. If he followed me inside, same thing. Call the cops while in line for my coffee (and all the other people at Tim Hortons now hear any threat he might make).

It's not that I wouldn't take it seriously, it's just that it's been my experience, the more vocal an asshole is, the less likely said asshole is going to act. I'd never turn my back on him, but I'll be damned if some dick is going to force me to engage, and deal with all the BS that might ensue.

by **slannesh** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:38 pm

Dom, you live in Canada.

AFAIK we don't have a "Stand your Ground" law, especially not in public. The rules are a bit different when you're in your private residence but in general hitting people is bad ju-ju when your turn comes to go through the Canadian justice system.

Long story short? From your description you had no reasonable grounds to escalate a shouting match into a physical confrontation and would have been committing assault for doing so. The "glass breaking" hatchet in your door? That sounds sorta dubious, especially when you checked to make sure it was there when getting out of the car. Buy a glass breaking hammer if you're worried about it. I think they're like $10 at Canadian Tire.

Did the guy have issues? Probably, were you speeding? Probably. The only roads in any part of Canada i've ever seen that have a speed limit of 100 km/h are primary highways. Secondary highways are typically 80. Depending on the road, I'd yell at you for blowing past me at 100+ in an 80 zone too. Now if it was a primary highway with a speed limit of 100, yeah he's a douche for doing 25 under but I really don't get that from the wording of your story.

by **Dom LRS** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:59 pm

Yea i agree with all 3 above fair comments - im just irked that i had to deal with a loonie tunes - I think if anything if a cop was there we'd probably both be told to cool it - & yes the coffee was bad i have no idea why Canadians like Tims its really weak lol
but i don't want to start a huge thread on that suffice to say i really like the maccy D new stuff, I guess i probably was just pissed that this idiot was making a huge mountain over a mole hill - That stretch of highway i do it daily for years - even the cops admit to me they don't pull anyone unless they re doing more than 110 if they're locals - out of towners well its like a fishing trip especially long weekends as its cottage country one let me off for doing 120 whilst running the Autologic diagnostics in a Range rover sport to get the full mass figures - came blazing into the car park in an undercover mustang then had a tour of the workshop - Very lucky :-)

for me but all the cops here are actually really decent they know me as my business is visible and ive helped with the Jail & Bail for the food bank.

To Ad'lan & BadIntel - Thank you for stepping up for us all in your respective deployments

Cheers

Dom

by **Doctorr Fabulous** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:04 pm

1. Even in a "stand your ground" state, standign there, escalating a situation, and then throwing the "first strike" ammount to assault, bare minimum. Depending on the damage done, it can go as high as premeditated murder.
2. The only reason to get into a fight is self defense, or defense of someone who cannot defend themself. Anything beyond that, and rule one applies.
3. Ditto on the "Special Olympics" bit.
4. Thank you Fletch for un-buggering that. I got to sentence three and had flashbacks to every Jason Statham movie I've ever seen.

by **mystic_1** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:20 pm

Hrm, so you exceed the speed limit, insult and contemplate assaulting people who complain about it, and keep a weapon in your car for the purpose of doing so.

Might want to check your mirror for "loonie tunes".

mystic_1

by **Doctorr Fabulous** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:28 pm

mystic_1 wrote:Hrm, so you exceed the speed limit, insult and contemplate assaulting people who complain about it, and keep a weapon in your car for the purpose of doing so.

Might want to check your mirror for "loonie tunes".

mystic_1

I think it's a mechanical problem. Loose nut behind the wheel.

by **Ad'lan** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:07 pm

Dom LRS wrote:
To Ad'lan & BadIntel - Thank you for stepping up for us all in your respective deployments

Cheers

Dom

Never Deployed, Section Commander, MSUOTC (NWOTR).

And I at least understood the slang.

When you would have grounds to use force IMO (see legal disclaimer in my earlier post):
1. He threatens you Verbally with immediate violence (I'm gonna kill you, for example).
2. You attempt to retreat he blocks your escape
3. As you recognise, if he tries to assault you or others.