combat communication

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I foresee an issue as to what band everyone & what exact frequency or frequencies will be used

how do you defeat a radio jammer though, this is used against most enemies now a days

if it ever does come down to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation I think I would monitor and listen before giving away my position and possibly scarificing my supplies & safety

Defeat a jammer? The FCC law prevent you from out-powering any decent jammer, so you figure out where it's coming from and move away from it.

This brings up a good question: any radio gurus wanna tell me what the legality is of building a jammer designed to attack unencrypted civilian bands? Mostly the motorola handy-talkies and the hand-held ham radios.

Building it? Legal. Turning it on to test it... illegal = felony.

The best, and only legal methods, of defeating jamming is by changing bands (they can't jam everything) and by using directional antenna and line of sight systems like light emitters, lasers, x-rays, etc.

Appreciate the clarification. I have no intention of bothering with it, but I've become familiar with some man-pack broad spectrum jammers (explained to me as "stopping the ripples in the pond by cannonballing a series of fat men into the deep end) and I was curious howlikely it is that something like that might be rigged up and deployed in a chaps-PAW by roving bands of raiders.

[Pink text to denote that this was merely a situation for proof of concept, not an actual thing I foresee short of Cthulhu turning the world into a bad PAW fiction story]

[CitizenZ]

Appreciate the clarification. I have no intention of bothering with it, but I've become familiar with some man-pack broad spectrum jammers (explained to me as "stopping the ripples in the pond by cannonballing a series of fat men into the deep end) and I was curious how likely it is that something like that might be rigged up and deployed in a chaps-PAW by roving bands of raiders.

[Pink text to denote that this was merely a situation for proof of concept, not an actual thing I foresee short of Cthulhu turning the world into a bad PAW fiction story]

There have been lots of jammers sold on ebay, so it's not far fetched. Usually about the size of a pack of cigarettes. They all have the same limitations. You must choose between range versus bandwidth. Since the power of any transmitter is limited, then that power must be either focused on a particular band or spread out over a larger bandwidth, therefore less power on any one band. Combined with antenna limitations this always gives limited performance. Most have a range of just a few yards on just one band (usually cellular). Good military jammers use a combination of techniques, antennas and lots of power to achieve effective jamming across the wanted spectrum, but still the performance of any one jammer is always limited and usually focused on the desired bands or limited range. We jam the hell out of Cuba, with huge antennas, multiple locations and massive power, yet some transmissions still get through. This should be beyond the capabilities of PAW roving bands or really any individuals because of the power, complexity and cost. Not to mention that anyone broadcasting that much power across lots of bands would look like a beacon to anyone with the most basic direction finding abilities. As more power or more bandwidth is used, it becomes easier to detect the jammers from greater distances.

Jamming can easily be done short range on a particular band with limited gear and skill, but then it can also be overcome easily by changing bands, using directional antennas or moving away from the jammers transmitters limited range.


Just to be clear; passive shielding of your gear or property is completely legal. Any device that emits any power to interfere with a licensed transmission is clearly a felony. There is no grey area. If you were to interfere with a transmission of an emergency broadcast (life or property) you could be facing a serious vacation at club Fed.

[aa1pr]

I foresee an issue as to what band everyone & what exact frequency or frequencies will be used

how do you defeat a radio jammer though, this is used against most enemies now a days

if it ever does come down to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation I think I would monitor and listen before giving away my position and possibly scarificing my supplies & safety

Defeat a jammer? The FCC law prevent you from out-powering any decent jammer, so you figure out where it's coming from and move away from it.

This brings up a good question: any radio gurus wanna tell me what the legality is of building a jammer designed to attack unencrypted civilian bands? Mostly the motorola handy-talkies and the hand-held ham radios.

Building it? Legal. Turning it on to test it... illegal = felony.

The best, and only legal methods, of defeating jamming is by changing bands (they can't jam everything) and by using directional antenna and line of sight systems like light emitters, lasers, x-rays, etc.

WOW, I never meant or implied for anyone to build or secure one, how fast we wander here off track

it is a fact that they exist & all of your hard work & reliance upon "Comms" maybe flushed down the toilet

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Just to be clear; passive shielding of your gear or property is completely legal. Any device that emits any power to interfere with a licensed transmission is clearly a felony. There is no grey area. If you were to interfere with a transmission of an emergency broadcast (life or property) you could be facing a serious vacation at club Fed.

Exactly what I was looking for. I love it when federal laws are all nice and completely clear like that. I appreciate the information.

WOW, I never meant or implied for anyone to build or secure one, how fast we wander here off track
it is a fact that they exist & all of your hard work & reliance upon "Comms" maybe flushed down the toilet

That's exactly what i was getting at. they exist, apparently they are easy to make and purchase on the internet, and the sort of people that use them are also the sort of people who likely will also disregard the silly laws about murder, theft, trespassing, etc.

[TacAir]

Sorry I missed the start of the....discussion.

Jamming on HF goes on all the time. Usually by repressive governments who wish to control what their citizens hear. Cuba and China are two of the worst. DPRK runs a close third.

Jamming can be tones, hash, or even music. The Chinese are 'famous' for their use of folk music - esp the composition called"The Firedrake" If you hear that bit on HF, check to see who the Chicoms are trying to block - iit is an interesting game.

As noted before jammers are rated in watts/kHz a measure of power density. Tactical jamming has become a lost effort for the most part as any high powered emitter on a battlefield quickly becomes a bullet magnet.
The old Sgt Yorl DIVAD system was cancelled, in part, because of the projected very low survival rate of any operators. Cool system, got to play with the prototype for some time.

Back to the emitter on the battlefield. It is possible to track individual radios by 'fingerprinting ' the transmitter and building a profile which is them used to 'follow'; the set. This is also used domestically to prosecute in cases of intentional interference.

I've posted elsewhere on the board that even the Local Oscillator in a receiver can be tracked down with little effort. For that reason, I posted links to crystal radio sites - the only 'safe' radio sets that I am aware of - easily or legally obtained for the general public.

The modern battlefield is full of high tech gear and well trained operators, what you will have to face post-disaster is an open question.

There are ways to 'defeat' these systems, avoid their effects or mitigate the impact of jamming. If success is getting a message passed, whole and ungarbled, good luck - that will take skill and knowledge on your part. A good place to start is to read open source manuals and such found on the web.

I know there are some old crows on the board, perhaps they can add to this sub-set of the thread.

[angelofwar]

I think this thread has gone way beyond what the OP was originally asking...while he did say "combat comm's", I think he meant "Z-Paw" comm's. So I think there needs to be a line drawn between the three scenarios:

-Short Term Catastrophe (i.e. Katrina/9-11); The governement will still exist, so it would be wise to heed all current FCC rules. Keep in mind, that during a TRUE Emergency, ALMOST anything goes...but be willing to plead your case if it comes down to that.

-Foreign Occupation; If this ever happens, it will presumably be by a semi modern force...so, yeah, all this stuff about tracking down signals, it would do well to take heed. Don't transmit, and find other means of comm.

-Z-PAW/EOTWAWKI; (This is what I THINK th OP was looking for) Will the governement be back? 10-20-50-100 years? Who knows...so, my post regarding general secure communications is if you lived on your own little island country where you made the rules; use codes...keep transmissions short, concise, and to the point.

Pronounce numbers individually (One-Hundred and Five/105 would be pronounced "One-Zero-Five/Fife"). Have flexible power supplies (Lithium Batteries, Solar Chargers, etc.). Have twice what you need. I NEED two, so I plan on getting two more of my current set-up, for a total of four FRS/GMRS handheld. Have a back-up MODERN comm system (I have FRS/GMRS as my primary, and CB as my back up).

Also, I wouldn't be too worried about thugs/ZED's knowing how or having the technology to track down the location of your transmissions...which is why I thought it was important too break down comm in different scenarios.

Learn basic antenna craft; a little knowledge on picking up transmissions and their frequencies can go a LONG way. MOST transmissions, regardless by who, are legal to listen too.

Consider an "intercom" system from your house to your bunker if they are in close proximity; basic comm wire is VERY cheap, and a home made land-based comm system can be had for VERY cheap.

Just a few ideas to ponder.

[Fosgate]

I was a 31U Tactical Communications Specialist in the Army 92-96. If your looking for end of the world scenario radio equipment just having a Ham radio to receive incoming signals is decent. The only problem is transmitting a HAM signal is easy to track and get a location fix. Typically your using an omnidirectional antenna which throws your signal out to all directions and to anyone within range. Which is fine unless you don't want the wrong people to find you.

Frequency hop is one solution. This is where your radio will switch frequency quickly and your receiver must be on the same security setting to jump to those same frequencies at the same interval. The Army has been doing this for years with separate secure devices. Sincgars was the first system to integrate the radio with the frequency hop. They are available for sale to civilians presently (seen them for $800) and the great thing about them is they are capable of surviving an EMP. For these you have the option of a surface mount and you can also put them in a pack using a battery for a power source. Regardless of the configuration a separate small battery is required to hold the frequency setting. Cool thing is you can either use the pre programmed kick 13 to input your frequencies or you can plug in several frequencies in order manually for your frequency hop. They are extremely difficult to jam and if you want to boost the signal or reception it is as simple as setting up a field antenna (OE254).

Alternatively you can also make your own directional antenna. It can be as simple as a piece of wire. Benefit of this is your radio may be stuck on a frequency but you cut the wire to the length of the frequency you are trying to transmit on and you aim it in the direction where you are trying to transmit to. This cuts down on the possibility of someone intercepting and triangulating your signal. I forget the TM manual number but it is a communications manual and I forget the math.

Here is also a good commo manual to explain some tracking and overcoming signal problems say like if someone or something is jamming your signal. You could make manual adjustments to your civilian radios but you would need an Oscilloscope. http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-11-490-5.pdf

My third Post hope someone finds it useful.

[CitizenZ]

I think this thread has gone way beyond what the OP was originally asking...while he did say "combat comm's", I think he meant "Z-Paw" comm's. So I think there needs to be a line drawn between the three scenarios:

-Short Term Catastrophe (i.e. Katrina/9-11); The governement will still exist, so it would be wise to heed all current FCC rules. Keep in mind, that during a TRUE Emergency, ALMOST anything goes...but be willing to plead your case if it comes down to that.

I will disagree with that. For example, during Katrina. A true short term catastrophe, and a true emergency situation. There were many examples of people using Ham radio's and Ham frequencies who did not have a Ham license. They were met with great hostility and other Hams did not co-operate with them. We (hams) are not allowed to. Unless your broadcast directly involves life or property then the rules still apply to you and the Ham operator you're talking to.

Specific example; I know of someone who, did not have a Ham license, was stuck on a closed road and tried to use a 2 meter radio to get alternate directions to leave the N.O. area. The other Hams refused to talk to him and demanded he stop using the Ham freq's. He kept at it, insisting it was an emergency (Katrina). They asked what was HIS emergency, but what he wanted was info about an available exit from N.O. That does not count. Just because there is an "emergency" does not throw the rules out the window. Only broadcasts directly involving saving "life or property" can break the "rules", even during an "emergency".
The guy I knew did not understand he was broadcasting on the repeaters frequency, but did not correctly open the repeater, simply jamming others from using the repeater. He was jamming true emergency broadcasts, stupidly. He stated where he was (to get out) and the Hams sent the sheriff to him and they picked him out of the traffic to confiscate his radio. He hid it and denied it all, but he got the message and stopped using the radio.
It's not just fear of prosecution later, but even at the time, you could be screwing with other emergency broadcasts, and others must refuse to talk to you. Hams are only allowed to talk to other Hams, except when it involves saving life or property for the broadcast, not just because there was a hurricane/earthquake/etc.

The time to learn how to use the radio is now, not during an emergency. Planning on "fudging" it later most likely won't work and could get you into serious trouble at the time and later. The same is true about illegally caring a weapon, poaching, trespassing, taking company gear, etc. During an emergency is not the time to become a law breaker. If for no other reason than you're not practiced at breaking the law or doing those things legally.

[CitizenZ]

WOW, I never meant or implied for anyone to build or secure one, how fast we wander here off track
it is a fact that they exist & all of your hard work & reliance upon "Comms" maybe flushed down the toilet

I think you misunderstood, I was answering Doc Torr, not you.

I don't think jammers are a serious concern. As I posted, individuals using jammers are going to be very limited in range and bandwidth for many reasons. Anyone who uses a jammer will draw far more attention than anyone would want in such a situation. Big jammers need big power and big antennas, so that limits who could do it, for how long and how easy they would be to find. Blocking transmissions during an emergency would be like blocking the entrance to a hospital. I think most people would use what ever force was needed to save our family. Jammers would probably attract bullets from anyone in range.

Over coming them should not be difficult.

[king_of_hearts]

Great thread!

I know cryptography is sticky verboten on HAM, GMRS, etc; but I plan on using commercial frequencies when I get my communication equipment picked out. (Disclaimer)

Now with that said, has anyone seen a "slide rule" type cryptography cheat sheet with a pre-established code words in a list that can "slide" along changing the code words based on time/date/etc?

Something like this....



Except with valid information of course.

[CitizenZ]

Great thread!
I know cryptography is sticky verboten on HAM, GMRS, etc; but I plan on using commercial frequencies when I get my communication equipment picked out. (Disclaimer)
Now with that said, has anyone seen a "slide rule" type cryptography cheat sheet with a pre-established code words in a list that can "slide" along changing the code words based on time/date/etc?
Something like this....
Except with valid information of course.

Encryption is forbidden on any bands for individuals. Individuals are also forbidden from using commercial freq's. I hope you learn before you waste money on gear you can't use or start committing felonies with your first transmissions.

[Fosgate]

Couple days into it your run low on water, toilet paper or whatever and decide to see if you can find out if there is any kind of emergency setup point that can point you in the direction of fresh TP/ Water/ Hair Gel whatever. Also you hope to get some info as to what happened and what is going on.

What kind of communications gear do you have in your preps? CB/SHortwave/HAM radio? Cell Phone? Solar or hand cranked emergency radio? Walkie talkies?
How about any friends/family/allies/fellow preppers - do they have similar communications gear, and have you decided in advance how to reach each other in a bug-in situation?

Have a way to talk to the outside world/rescuers, and to listen to them. Then you might be able to say "We need water here!" and summon help, or find out where to go, or know what is and isn't a safe route, etc. This reduces the necessity of poking blindly about in dangerous territory with a rifle.

Really don't know since I have been out of the service for awhile, but for monitoring I would look at things popularly used like CB's, HAM radio etc. Thing that turns me off about the HAM is someone has your name and address on file. In the event of political unrest, invasion etc where someone in a hostile position of authority, it would not take long to find you and take all your gear and whatever else they might find useful. Just my personal preference to try and preserve what privacy I have. Also have a police scanner to monitor police bands. Transmission is tricky like I said earlier, Not sure if there is much on the civilian market that isn't monitored and easy to triangulate. Maybe some of the current commo dogs could suggest something there. Other than that the only thing I would feel comfortable with is a Sincgars radio to monitor unsecured military channels and maybe establish contact that way if need be with military support or if you know someone on the other side that you can program your own frequency hop in. Even then though you are limited to may be 50miles under the best ideal conditions without a retrans site to relay your signal. Sat phone would be the best to call for help or emergency beacon like we use snowmobiling in avalanche risk areas. They will have a big red button that signals an emergency with a gps fix and rescuers are dispatched to investigate. Kid of depends on what you intend to use your communications for. Combat scenario, not sure what would really be the best these days.

[angelofwar]

I think this thread has gone way beyond what the OP was originally asking...while he did say "combat comm's", I think he meant "Z-Paw" comm's. So I think there needs to be a line drawn between the three scenarios:

-Short Term Catastrophe (i.e. Katrina/9-11); The governement will still exist, so it would be wise to heed all current FCC rules. Keep in mind, that during a TRUE Emergency, ALMOST anything goes...but be willing to plead your case if it comes down to that.

I will disagree with that. For example, during Katrina. A true short term catastrophe, and a true emergency situation. There were many examples of people using Ham radio's and Ham frequencies who did not have a Ham license. They were met with great hostility and other Hams did not co-operate with them. We (hams) are not allowed to. Unless your broadcast directly involves life or property then the rules still apply to you and the Ham operator you're talking to.

Specific example; I know of someone who, did not have a Ham license, was stuck on a closed road and tried to use a 2 meter radio to get alternate directions to leave the N.O. area. The other Hams refused to talk to him and demanded he stop using the Ham freq's. He kept at it, insisting it was an emergency (Katrina). They asked what was HIS emergency, but what he wanted was info about an available exit from N.O. That does not count. Just because there is an "emergency" does not throw the rules out the window. Only broadcasts directly involving saving "life or property" can break the "rules", even during an "emergency".
The guy I knew did not understand he was broadcasting on the repeaters frequency, but did not correctly open the repeater, simply jamming others from using the repeater. He was jamming true emergency broadcasts, stupidly. He stated where he was (to get out) and the Hams sent the sheriff to him and they picked him out of the traffic to confiscate his radio. He hid it and denied it all, but he got the message and stopped using the radio.
It's not just fear of prosecution later, but even at the time, you could be screwing with other emergency broadcasts, and others must refuse to talk to you. Hams are only allowed to talk to other Hams, except when it involves saving life or property for the broadcast, not just because there was a hurricane/earthquake/etc.

The time to learn how to use the radio is now, not during an emergency. Planning on "fudging" it later most likely won't work and could get you into serious trouble at the time and later. The same is true about illegally caring a weapon, poaching, trespassing, taking company gear, etc. During an emergency is not the time to become a law breaker. If for no other reason than you're not practiced at breaking the law or doing those things legally.

Well, it seems like a lot of these weren't true emergencies...If I did have capability to transmit on the HAM band, I would only do so under dire straights...reporting a large fire, triage scenario, etc. What I was trying to say, which is why I pust the "TRUE" and "ALMOST" in there, is that if it's a TRUE emergency (not "I need directions"), people shouldn't feel intimidatted or afraid NOT TO try to communicate by any means possible. Transmitting that you have 3 people with 3rd degree burns, you will get help a lot faster communicating that over a ham band rather than shouting, hoping some-one hears you. A ham operator 30 miles away can call local LE and give them your position, when you may be unable to.

[king_of_hearts]

Encryption is forbidden on any bands for individuals. Individuals are also forbidden from using commercial freq's. I hope you learn before you waste money on gear you can't use or start committing felonies with your first transmissions.

I misspoke on the name of the bands I plan on using....mean to say industrial, scientific and medical (which is more or less commercial in my eyes anyway).

I'm looking into kit that uses the ISM Band/FHSS, and I've seen more than a few modules that can produce AES encryption.

In addition, I know Bluetooth devices use the ISM Bands, and supports AES as of version 4.

IANAL, but wouldn't that make ISM Bands not required to be in 97.113 compliance?

If you can point me to somewhere that spells out that it is illegal then I won't pursue that direction. I am attempting to go the most legal, secured communications route.

Honestly FHSS will keep most people out, but I'm kind of a paranoid person. I'd really love to use FHSS, AES, and crypto.

Looking forward to your response.

[majorhavoc]

If you can point me to somewhere that spells out that it is illegal then I won't peruse that direction. I am attempting to go the most legal, secured communications route.

Honestly FHSS will keep most people out, but I'm kind of a paranoid person. I'd really love to use FHSS, AES, and crypto.

I'm not picking on you in particular king, but

For the love of GOD! Can't we just let this thread die a (second) ignoble death?

First it's a necro'ed topic. And in two and a half pages since it's resurrection, it's steadily devolved into primarily of a death spiral of repeatedly questioning and re-asserting the illegality of crypto.

Ad nauseum.

It's been asked and answered.

Asked and answered.

Asked and answered.

And so help me God, I roared in frustration when I checked again this morning and see that it's being asked AGAIN.

Honestly, it's sucking the life out of the normally very interesting and lively Communications sub-forum.

Oh, mods, oh mods, wherefor art thou?

[king_of_hearts]

It's been asked and answered.

Asked and answered.

Asked and answered.

Oh, mods, oh mods, wherefor art thou?

I understand your frustration. I was just trying to point out that its more complicated than people let on.

Edit: Never mind, people continued the discussion

[Tater Raider]

It's really not too complicated.

http://books.google.com/books?id=J7wUxCzf98AC&pg=SA6-PA12&lpg=SA6-PA12&dq=ham+radio+encoded+transmissions&source=bl&ots=hUNaGJBcaw&sig=fnIyMRanDbDqlM0iagNj_co0nZs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9z6QT8OIEIqygwevlbnrBA&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=ham%20radio%20encoded%20transmissions&f=false

There it is, black and white, what you can and cannot do.

Also check out here: http://www.arrl.org/part-97-amateur-radio

(4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification;

[king_of_hearts]

It's really not too complicated.

http://books.google.com/books?id=J7wUxCzf98AC&pg=SA6-PA12&lpg=SA6-PA12&dq=ham+radio+encoded+transmissions&source=bl&ots=hUNaGJBcaw&sig=fnIyMRanDbDqlM0iagNj_co0nZs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9z6QT8OIEIqygwevlbnrBA&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=ham%20radio%20encoded%20transmissions&f=false

There it is, black and white, what you can and cannot do.

Also check out here: http://www.arrl.org/part-97-amateur-radio

(4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification;

Except the ISM Band isn't Ham. The ISM Bands are unlicensed spectrum. Ham is licensed spectrum. Different rules apply as far as I can tell, but I suppose I could contact the FCC directly and get it from the horses mouth.

Edit: This is pretty much the definitive ISM information can be located here -> http://www.arrl.org/part-15-radio-frequency-devices, and http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=dec19a6583d25e806de41e5fcbce0617&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title47/47cfr15_main_02.tpl

[CitizenZ]

Except the ISM Band isn't Ham. The ISM Bands are unlicensed spectrum. Ham is licensed spectrum. Different rules apply as far as I can tell, but I suppose I could contact the FCC directly and get it from the horses mouth.

Edit: This is pretty much the definitive ISM information can be located here -> http://www.arrl.org/part-15-radio-frequency-devices, and http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=dec19a6583d25e806de41e5fcbce0617&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title47/47cfr15_main_02.tpl

No. You are not allowed to use encryption on any band. There is no loop hole to allow you to use encrypted gear. Period. The laws were written to prevent you from doing so. All of the bands are highly regulated. Those few commercial bands where encryption is allowed are even more highly regulated to PREVENT individuals from using them. Really. It's a felony to transmit an encrypted or deceptive signal.

[CitizenZ]

Encryption is forbidden on any bands for individuals. Individuals are also forbidden from using commercial freq's. I hope you learn before you waste money on gear you can't use or start committing felonies with your first transmissions.

I misspoke on the name of the bands I plan on using....mean to say industrial, scientific and medical (which is more or less commercial in my eyes anyway).
I'm looking into kit that uses the ISM Band/FHSS, and I've seen more than a few modules that can produce AES encryption.
In addition, I know Bluetooth devices use the ISM Bands, and supports AES as of version 4.
IANAL, but wouldn't that make ISM Bands not required to be in 97.113 compliance?
If you can point me to somewhere that spells out that it is illegal then I won't pursue that direction. I am attempting to go the most legal, secured communications route.
Honestly FHSS will keep most people out, but I'm kind of a paranoid person. I'd really love to use FHSS, AES, and crypto.
Looking forward to your response.

97.113 only applies to amateur radio. ISM devices must be FCC type accepted low power devices, like blue tooth. Using, or modifying them for personal encrypted communication is clearly not allowed.

If you want to waste your money and play spin the felony bottle, go ahead. We warned you.