Renewable Energy Sources and Sustaining them

[Princess Havoc]

So,
I am taking this class for my BA... its a tree huggers class that I absolutely hate cause these people would rather see people die out to save the planet than people learn to live with the earth as it is... HOWEVER, it has given me some food for thought that I wanted to get everyone else's opinion on too. Currently, I am writing a term paper about alternative energy sources replacing oil, so anything you post may get used as a starting point for a topic in said paper, I have covered the basics, solar, wind, wave, etc. But, It got me thinking, what happens at ZPAW? How do we produce energy then? I have several ideas, but I cant ever get them to sound good and me not sound like a loon.

Ideas? Thoughts? General Commentary??

[Crow]

Lots of citrus and some Mr. Wizard lol

Tou want e ergy for the whole nation or yourself?

Find a stream build a water wheel
Go without electric .Join the SCA for tons of practice on this. Humanity has survived longer without electric than with.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

General commentary: Drop the tree-hugger hate. No, really, it's not really appropriate here, and this is the second time you mentioned it in so many days. There are nutjobs everywhere, but some of these people have been driving the alternative energy thing since the 1970s.

Thoughts: Water wheels if you have a stream, and learning to depend less on electricity. If you still have electricity, hydrogen is a viable option, though Knight of the Roc is a much better source than I am on that front, and natural gas can be mined as well.

[NamelessStain]

Biodiesel, Wood Gassification, HHO, finally even the age old practice of using animals.

But Doc said it best with learning to do stuff again without electricity and power. Somehow settlers seemed to do alright without it. /shrug

[Confucius]

I suspect that hydrous pyrolysis and methane biodigesting are going to become bigger sources of energy as oil dwindles, mostly because they produce products which can easily be used in existing technology (internal combustion engines and the like). It wouldn't be too hard to set up a biodigester in a PAW (not that I believe a total PAW to be a likely scenario) for use in a generator, stoves, gaslights, etc...

[majorhavoc]

tree huggers class that I absolutely hate cause these people would rather see people die out to save the planet

Based on this and another of your posts, you certainly do like to paint people in broad brushstrokes, PH. My experience has been if you continue to do that, you're going to pretty much see the world, all it's problems, and any potential solutions in very black and white terms.

People who deny the possibility of a middle ground or nuances in different points of view don't tend to grow much. Which, when you think about it, defeats the reason you're going to college in the first place.

You're not asking inappropriate questions, PH. But if you try a little harder to set aside your own prejudices and bias, you might find yourself more receptive to the answers you receive.

Off the top of my head, geothermal, tidal (as distinct from wave, which you already mentioned) and biodiesel are a few that haven't been brought up yet.

Our current energy appetite is possible due to relatively large amounts of energy production at very cheap prices due to the easy availabilty of fossil fuels and a relatively efficient distribution infrastructure. In a PAW, I would imagine some isolated pockets of continued fossil fuel usage, and much more widespread use of renewables. The common denominator in a both scenarios is that in a post apocayptic word, people will have to learn to make do on a vastly diminished energy budget.

[raptor]

So,
I am taking this class for my BA... its a tree huggers class that I absolutely hate cause these people would rather see people die out to save the planet than people learn to live with the earth as it is... HOWEVER, it has given me some food for thought that I wanted to get everyone else's opinion on too. Currently, I am writing a term paper about alternative energy sources replacing oil, so anything you post may get used as a starting point for a topic in said paper, I have covered the basics, solar, wind, wave, etc. But, It got me thinking, what happens at ZPAW? How do we produce energy then? I have several ideas, but I cant ever get them to sound good and me not sound like a loon.

Ideas? Thoughts? General Commentary??

Please reserve your hate for people who are trying to kill you. The fact that people have different opinions that annoy you does not give license to hate them.

That said look around the forum there are many discussions on this subject. The key is to reduce energy consumption either through efficiency or elimination of energy uses. For instance use of CFL or LED bulbs instead of incandescent bulbs. Better insulated and more efficient appliances. More home insulation. Better and more efficient HVAC systems.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=79742


BTW as energy costs rise it makes good business sense to turn to "green" measures that reduce energy consumption. The blue water sailing community long ago came up with a lot of alternate energy processes that allowed many of the comforts of home at a fraction of energy consumption. They did because energy production was limited. This is another place to look for research material.

As a way of example. The average home has at least 150 amp 120/240 service coming to it. The average 40 to 60 foot blue water cruising vessel makes do with less than 50 amps of 120/240 power ....when shore power is available.

[NamelessStain]

... For instance use of CFL or LED bulbs instead of incandescent bulbs. ...

I personally avoid CFL bulbs due to, imho, the hazardous nature of them. Read the warning label on them.

I'll stick with LEDs

[Cherokee John]

Water into light-the third world way:

[Xale D]

And then there's a new breed of Solar Cells on the rapidly approaching horizon: Twin Creeks

[TacAir]

Trees. Straight up. Worked for years to cook food, make steam and so on. Cut them down, replant new ones. Pretty renewable.

The folks in LA (Califlower) use recovered methane to power the diesel pumps in the sewage plants, saves money and reduces 'footprint' (aka smell). Methane recovery from landfills has become a source of energy, but not exactly 'renewable'.

Of course, we expect you to post your paper here so we can see how all this free advice and support resulted in a product. (Hint)

As far as the others, hate is a harsh word, but for my part, I don''t really care when others try and dictate how I live via pressure politics....
Good luck on your class - my experience has been the less opinion you express in class, better grades may be had and you'll find more folks willing to join a study group, etc.

Opinion is like salt, a little bit adds flavor, too much ruins the meal. YMMV.

[Princess Havoc]

You are right, Hate is a strong word, At the time I made my posting about it, I was angry about the class. I have sense calmed down and realize I could have worded it better.
Having said that: This class is irritating because it isn't just environmental issues, some of these people really do scare me in the fact that rather than find ways to co exist with nature and all that, they would have humans (and animals) die out. To me, the point of an environmental class is to learn how to better be present in the environment, not discuss killing off anything other than plants, which, from my understanding of how things work, take away animals and the planet would die out quickly, in a very simplistic way of putting it.

[raptor]

... For instance use of CFL or LED bulbs instead of incandescent bulbs. ...

I personally avoid CFL bulbs due to, imho, the hazardous nature of them. Read the warning label on them.

I'll stick with LEDs

CFL bulbs are easier to cost justify. Everything has hazards associated with it. IMO driving a car to work is far more risky than the cumulative possible exposure to the mercury in a CFL bulb.

That said LEDs are a better choice for a variety of reasons. The only drawback is the cost and the limited light temperature presently available. If you are replacing incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs the economics is still compelling.

Here is a link to long term test of CFL and LED in different configurations.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57197

[Crimson Phoenix]

So,
I am taking this class for my BA... its a tree huggers class that I absolutely hate cause these people would rather see people die out to save the planet than people learn to live with the earth as it is... HOWEVER, it has given me some food for thought that I wanted to get everyone else's opinion on too. Currently, I am writing a term paper about alternative energy sources replacing oil, so anything you post may get used as a starting point for a topic in said paper, I have covered the basics, solar, wind, wave, etc. But, It got me thinking, what happens at ZPAW? How do we produce energy then? I have several ideas, but I cant ever get them to sound good and me not sound like a loon.

Ideas? Thoughts? General Commentary??

I don't mean to stir up trouble, but I recently obtained my BS in Geology with a minor in geography with foci in GIS technology, groundwater studies, and environmental resource conservation and I'm pursuing my MA in Environmental Resource Management with a secondary focus in water resources. Just what kind of "tree huggers class" is this? From the way you describe it both you and your class are at two very polarized extremes of view. No workable solution can be without compromise and cannot subscribe to extremes and expect people to go along with it.

The key is a mix of both energy policy from alternative sources, weaning the population (either at community, regional, or national levels) from oil in such a way you don't disrupt or destroy the existing economy and render all devices obsolete overnight, and promote energy conservation and reduced reliance on electrical power on the individual level. This last part can be achieved by individuals with small capital inputs by way of simply more closely managing when their lights and appliances are on. At some greater cost to the individual, you can look at retrofitting their house for insulated glass and exterior doors, putting in high efficiency appliances (such as those that are EnergyStar certified in the US) and lighting (such as CFL and LED light bulbs), having your air conditioner on a timer, and installing ceiling fans and skylights. This is what I plan to do once I have a home of my own over a time period of 2-5 years as money becomes available. Beyond this, the individual home, apartment block, or business can install a limited solar/wind grid-tie system to reduce their individual draw on the power grid and distribute the community-wide alternative energy systems without any one member making a high cost investment or a utility forcing those costs onto the end customer.

In summary, you can't look at this as an "us versus them" problem. You don't want to sacrifice too much of your way of life and comfort, while at the same time you, like everyone else, live in this world with all its limited resources. You can say "this isn't for me" and for now, that's fine. But remember that the Earth is a closed system and what outputs mankind puts into the environment can directly effect your health and your use of energy will directly effect your cashflow. Do what's right for you, but try to stay open-minded. You many find some changes will benefit you, be it financially, or peace of mind, or whatever.

[Lynn LeFey]

If you've got wind and solar, you've covered most of what seems reasonable. If someone comes up with a cost-effective way to get ethanol from cellulose (which I think someone already mentioned), then there's that. I've heard some promising news on that front.

[NamelessStain]

... For instance use of CFL or LED bulbs instead of incandescent bulbs. ...

I personally avoid CFL bulbs due to, imho, the hazardous nature of them. Read the warning label on them.

I'll stick with LEDs

CFL bulbs are easier to cost justify. Everything has hazards associated with it. IMO driving a car to work is far more risky than the cumulative possible exposure to the mercury in a CFL bulb.

That said LEDs are a better choice for a variety of reasons. The only drawback is the cost and the limited light temperature presently available. If you are replacing incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs the economics is still compelling.

Here is a link to long term test of CFL and LED in different configurations.
http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... =6&t=57197

Sorry, I was comparing the risks of CFL vs LED. Sure I could get hit by a bus, struck by lightning, hit by a tornado, earthquake, hurricane, random bullet... blah blah blah. I consider them "out of scope" in this topic. I could also hit the lottery.

[alysonshaw]

For me, sustaining what we have is simply thinking of our kids future.

[KnightoftheRoc]

I heard my name mentioned...

Not to ride my particular hobby horse (hydrogen) all over your yard, I'm working on a website devoted to alternative energy sources, the link is in my sig line. At present, we have a monthly newsletter going out, free, and sign up on the site is also free. If I can get the forums up and working, you can check those out, too, also free to join. The software is the same as here on ZS, so navigating it should be easy.

I'm currently working with the other site owner on making hydrogen fuel gas from water, for automotive use. With adaptions to my designs, I can see a whole house system created that makes heating and cooking gas, while providing all the electric, maybe even enough to sell some back to the power company! This small income would more than offset the increase in your water bill. Combine that with no longer spending the money on gas, oil, electric, or gasoline, and you could easily see a lot more cash in your pocket! All while creating a zero carbon footprint, with a perfectly safe, environmentally friendly exhaust gas- water vapor.

Some people would argue that this can't be done, and offer all sorts of arguments against it, but the fact remains that it HAS been done, others are doing it, and still more are researching it. I foresee this as being a replacement for natural gas as well as oil, and possibly the way we as a civilization enter into the next phase of our development.

[Lynn LeFey]

What are you using to power the electrolysis to split the water to get the hydrogen?

[Princess Havoc]

Thanks everyone for your help! I got some ideas i hadnt thought about before, I am currently awaiting the grade and will post it when I get it!

Thanks again, you guys are AWESOME!!

[proteus]

If you live in an appropriate area...geothermal power may be a viable option and is an endless supply of energy. They may have a heavy price tag to start-up but afterwards the price is very minimal and has zero emissions.

[raptor]

Schematics for a new type of generator





Disclsoure:
No kitties were harmed by this generator and they all enjoyed licking the butter off the toast during testing.

[TacAir]

Schematics for a new type of generator





Disclsoure:
No kitties were harmed by this generator and they all enjoyed licking the butter off the toast.

LOL

And I thought you would have the kitty rub all over my carpet, reaping the static electricity. Clearly, this is he superior product.

You, Sir, are a genius! (Thanks for the laff)

[proteus]

Schematics for a new type of generator





Disclsoure:
No kitties were harmed by this generator and they all enjoyed licking the butter off the toast during testing.

GF is allergic to cats...dont suppose there is a dog version of this...maybe a spinning tail or some sort of upgrade??