Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot rule)

[bigmattdaddywack]

Actually I'm pretty sure they were using 38 long colt Army revolvers during the moro rebellion.



http://www.chuckhawks.com/38LC.htm

Sorry. I am back in. You are correct it was the .38 long Colt which is weaker than the .38 special.
The Army ended up bringing the 1873 SAA out of retirement for the conflict. I also have heard and read that Civil War cap and ball revolvers were brought back into service. The Civil War revolver mentioned was not a Colt and the name really eludes me but I am vaguely remembering it as a Rogers and Spencer.

During WWII the Moro were our allies and they still loved to cut the shit out of their enemies. One time upon landing back on the Philippines a group of tribesman told some soldiers of a location of some Japanese soldiers. The US forces were skeptical and wanted proof. The tribesman left. Sometime later they returned with bolos in hand and a bag. The US soldiers looked inside to see Japanese heads. The tribesman were then made scouts and were armed with US weapons.

[Murph]

Where the Moro running from 21 feet??

[bigmattdaddywack]

Where the Moro running from 21 feet??

Probably more of less. It was jungle fighting and 21 feet sounds about right much of the time. 7 yards is real close.

Sometimes closer I am sure. Sometime further.

[JTNieman]

I've been following the thread and have to agree with doc66 on this thread.

I thought this thread had good potential, but seems to have turned into people being a bit sensitive, and less interested in finding solutions.

It's awesome that the_alias and Murph got out of their armchairs to test some shit out and give us some media to discuss and evaluate. It's given me some new insights to situations I'm only just starting to try to learn about. I appreciate their contributions a lot.

I don't know what Murph's reason for participation in this thread is, beyond this. All I'm seeing from you, dude, is "Don't hate on my draw, don't talk about anything I did, you weren't there, you don't have vid, so stfu." Or at least that's the impression you're giving off. You show problems, but you aren't interested in solutions at all, or trying to find them. I don't give a shit who did what, how they did it, but I do care about solutions to problems. I have 2 crits, though, from this thread and in our discussions in IRC a while ago.

1) Your abstinence from shooting from retention. You and I talked in IRC and when I mentioned shooting "from the hip", basically, you scoffed at it as being unsafe, ineffective, and steadfastly claimed no one could shoot accurate enough inside 5-10 feet from that position. No, I haven't managed to get to the range to take some pics, but this weekend, Biggin and I will both be at a combative pistol class, and I'll see if we can take some pics like Bellers did, and target results. Like I intimated prior, my main goal in shootings from retention is to hit the wide rectangle that covers the low abdomen, waist, crotch, and very-upper thighs for some hopeful femoral artery hits, or at least nerves and main life-ducts for the lower body. I've practiced shooting in that manner, with my support hand going to chest-high in front of me. I started slow and gradually sped up, like most training drills are learned. I have the luxury of being at an oft-empty private range at times, and I understand this type of shooting is not allowable at most ranges. That does not, however, mean it is unilaterally unsafe or ineffective.

2) I haven't seen a point to the thread or outline for discussion. This basically just means we all come here and comment on whatever strikes us. I honestly agree with Crypto in that your draw seemed ragged, loose, unpracticed, almost. You repeatedly harp that "It's different doing it under stress than just doing it for pics or range fun" but there are many of us that do it quite often under imposed stress as you have. You're not doing anything that a lot of us haven't already done a lot as well, so backing off the defensiveness might be conducive to more productive discussion, imo. We seem to keep going back and forth to penis-wagging discussions.

Gelgoog brought up his back-flopping strategy, brought up the reasons for it being a possible advantage, it was discussed in detail, he didn't get butthurt, even though a lot of us had pretty critical opinions of it.

Personally, I think the biggest question is -if- someone was shooting from retention, how does it affect the Tueller drill scenario? I honestly believe you're removing a valuable tool from your toolbox. Maybe I can show you it has potential after this weekend. We'll see. I'd like to see how this scenario plays out if someone were to "speed rock" it as you put it.

I think most of all, I need to get my ass in gear, save up some training cash, and see when Paul Gomez next plans on having a class here in Baton Rouge again. I've already got a handful of people interested in an advanced pistol course, so I may just spear head it and see if I can get one organized for him.

Ninja-edit: Also, is this Tueller type scenario really even worth concern? I've seen much said that it's really not a likely scenario for a knife attacker to engage in, but I guess it's no different than training to have to engage a target at 50 yards with a pistol. Sure, it's pretty rare to need to, but it's happened to more than a few, so I guess it's worth training for those shots.

[Dave_M]

When James makes a post that makes complete sense, we know the thread has already gone full-retard and beyond.

[Biggin]

Jimmy, sign me up for Gomez. I'll find a way to get there.



As for retention shooting.... invaluable skill if you ask me. When shooting from retention, also, I wouldn't be aiming for the chest I would be aiming pelvis and destroying the attacker's balls and groin area. Also, shooting down towards the pelvis, lessens your risk of nailing your own arm while keeping it up to guard your head or throw a forearm into the attacker's jaw. Just some thoughts.

[JTNieman]

When James makes a post that makes complete sense, we know the thread has already gone full-retard and beyond.

Probation has made me a more cautious and thoughtful poster.

@Biggin: I assumed you'd be down. You'd have been the first one I called to get another warm body at the class.

[Jeriah]

I'm mostly just reading this thread and learning a lot from all involved, but I have one question/idea:

To test and practice the shooting from retention/hip concept, wouldn't it make sense to install Crimson Trace lasergrips, or another laser that can be activated in like manner, and practice shooting from that position, until you can regularly hit your target using the laser? And then deactivate the laser and practice doing it that way? It seems like shooting with the laser from the hip would let you safely practice shooting from this position, building correct muscle memory, and then turning the laser off and practicing it that way would let you do it even if you didn't have a laser on your carry gun, or if the batteries died.

Obviously in a defensive situation you could use the laser if your carry gun has one.

[AKFTW]

I'm mostly just reading this thread and learning a lot from all involved, but I have one question/idea:

To test and practice the shooting from retention/hip concept, wouldn't it make sense to install Crimson Trace lasergrips, or another laser that can be activated in like manner, and practice shooting from that position, until you can regularly hit your target using the laser? And then deactivate the laser and practice doing it that way? It seems like shooting with the laser from the hip would let you safely practice shooting from this position, building correct muscle memory, and then turning the laser off and practicing it that way would let you do it even if you didn't have a laser on your carry gun, or if the batteries died.

Obviously in a defensive situation you could use the laser if your carry gun has one.

They have lasers for dry fire training that insert into the barrel and activate from the click of the firing pin/striker.

[JTNieman]

I'm mostly just reading this thread and learning a lot from all involved, but I have one question/idea:

To test and practice the shooting from retention/hip concept, wouldn't it make sense to install Crimson Trace lasergrips, or another laser that can be activated in like manner, and practice shooting from that position, until you can regularly hit your target using the laser? And then deactivate the laser and practice doing it that way? It seems like shooting with the laser from the hip would let you safely practice shooting from this position, building correct muscle memory, and then turning the laser off and practicing it that way would let you do it even if you didn't have a laser on your carry gun, or if the batteries died.

Obviously in a defensive situation you could use the laser if your carry gun has one.

IMO, lasers are a crutch, or an excuse not to practice. I've never once in my shooting life, thought "Man, a laser would solve this issue.." but often I've found that lasers seem to solve symptoms. This symptom is a shooters inability to know where the barrel is pointed. That's not a hurdle, that's a problem. You fix this problem through use.

For the cost of most lasers, you could buy enough ammo to walk yourself onto target and acquire the intuition or sixth sense that enables you to know where that barrel is pointed. I understand that I shoot a lot. I understand that I shoot more than 95% of shooters out there, even though I look at that last 5% and go "Damn, I need to work harder.." but it didn't take me all that long to stand in front of the target, pop off a 2-3 shot string, and say "Hmph... a bit low... let's adjust myself to account for that" shoot the next string, and after a single box of ammo, be reliably on target and ready to start speeding up my drills.

I find that chasing lasers slows people down. I've fucked with a coworker of mine that swears by his laser. He spends more time zero'ing it, sighting it in, whatever, than actually using the fucking thing, I find. He also has a complete disconnect in his whole process compared to someone doing a normal 4 count draw and fire. He adds a whole other step whereby he draws, gets on target, ignores his sights, picks up the laser dot, puts the laser dot on target, waits until the dot is steady enough to fire, then pulls the trigger.

I find it's more harm than good. It might be a blessing when you're shooting extremely odd positions and angles that you couldn't possibly train for, simply because you can't train ALL the possible combinations of aimign angles andbody positions... but shooting from retention, I find, is a rather intuitive and fluid thing that does not need to be fouled up by gizmos that slow you down when it matters.

Above all that, the key to a violent offender is to watch eyes and hands, mostly hands. Danger is in the hands, the next move is in the eyes. You already have two points of interest to watch, one with high priority, and to then add that you now have to watch for a dancing wild red dot that is bouncing all around the dude's body and background, so you can make a shot down at the groin? Sounds like poor tactics to me, to be frank.

[Biggin]

I can shoot faster and more accurately than anyone I have ever met that uses a laser. Lasers have a very narrow field where they are actually an advantage and not a crutch or hindrance .

[squinty]

Ninja-edit: Also, is this Tueller type scenario really even worth concern? I've seen much said that it's really not a likely scenario for a knife attacker to engage in, but I guess it's no different than training to have to engage a target at 50 yards with a pistol.

The very unlikelihood of that Tueller scenario underscores the point of this thread, I think. If it's that hard to draw, shoot and stop a crazed stabbyfiend from 21 feet away, how much harder will it be to do so from more realistic distances?


(edited away repetitive or pedantic bits, and my support of lasers - I defer to others' experience.)

[Jeriah]

To test and practice the shooting from retention/hip concept, wouldn't it make sense to install Crimson Trace lasergrips, or another laser that can be activated in like manner, and practice shooting from that position, until you can regularly hit your target using the laser? And then deactivate the laser and practice doing it that way? It seems like shooting with the laser from the hip would let you safely practice shooting from this position, building correct muscle memory, and then turning the laser off and practicing it that way would let you do it even if you didn't have a laser on your carry gun, or if the batteries died.

For the cost of most lasers, you could buy enough ammo to walk yourself onto target and acquire the intuition or sixth sense that enables you to know where that barrel is pointed. I understand that I shoot a lot. I understand that I shoot more than 95% of shooters out there, even though I look at that last 5% and go "Damn, I need to work harder.." but it didn't take me all that long to stand in front of the target, pop off a 2-3 shot string, and say "Hmph... a bit low... let's adjust myself to account for that" shoot the next string, and after a single box of ammo, be reliably on target and ready to start speeding up my drills.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I should try shooting from retention sometime (next time I'm at a range I won't get thrown off of for trying), and see how it goes. That's certainly likely to happen before I'd get around to buying a laser, anyway. I guess if you start at near-contact range, and then just incrementally move your target back, you'd get a good idea of where you're going to hit.

[Regular Guy]

I'm going to chime in on drawing the gun in defense to a knife attacker right in front of you. The 21' rule is retarded and will never happen except maybe on a battle field. Just breaking leather and firing may get it done but it may get you stabbed. Everyone knows I'm not anti gun, so let's not start that crap.
Say I have my knife out and I come to stick you up, you have your gun concealed on your hip. I state that you must stand and deliver. You think, fuck that and go for your draw. The criminal will see this quick movement, even if he doesn't see or realize you're drawing on him may cause him to stab the shit out of you. Think about it, you're reacting to a deadly threat, why wouldn't a criminal. Now, to not foil your own draw requires you to rip you shirt out of the way with your left arm and the right grips the gun. For that period of time you are defenseless.
We trained this quite a bit, you are going to get stabbed to fuck trying to draw against a drawn weapon. I don't care if your fast as shit, I don't care if you have an 8' side step, you can't get your gun out faster than a stab, especially from a drawn knife.
I don't care where you trained your self defense, I don't care if your a super bad ass, it's not possible. There are folks that train to foil a draw as well, shit, I have, a lot. Point a gun at someone in arms length, all you have to do is slap it out of the way. Even drawing to retention all the guy has to do is push, slap the the gun to the left. Then you're getting stabbed for your efforts.
In my experience, the only thing you can do is defend against the knife. Gun trainers train folks to defend against the knife with a gun because they are gun trainers, not self defense instructors. I think if this is a concern of yours I think you'd be better served at a good self defense school that has a focus on knife defense instead of a single day with a gun trainer. Shit, I know a dood that putting on a course in about a month.

[Murph]

1) Your abstinence from shooting from retention. You and I talked in IRC and when I mentioned shooting "from the hip", basically, you scoffed at it as being unsafe, ineffective, and steadfastly claimed no one could shoot accurate enough inside 5-10 feet from that position.

Maybe something got lost in translation some place. I'm not anti-retention shooting. It's my opinion that shooting from the #2 position is a better retention shooting technique than shooting from the hip, ala speed rock. Like I said, "my opinion." If you're comfortable shooting from the hip... tomato, tomatao.

2) I haven't seen a point to the thread or outline for discussion. This basically just means we all come here and comment on whatever strikes us. I honestly agree with Crypto in that your draw seemed ragged, loose, unpracticed, almost.

The biggest problem I had with the draw was clearing the cover garment effectively. I fully admit that. However, I've got the copies orignal videos that I slowed down to review, and once the pistol is out, the progression through the 4 point draw stroke looks solid. Crypto saying I never cleared the leather is a bunch of crap though, the pistol was out everytime. I proved that with the screen caps of the youtube videos.

Personally, I think the biggest question is -if- someone was shooting from retention, how does it affect the Tueller drill scenario? I honestly believe you're removing a valuable tool from your toolbox. Maybe I can show you it has potential after this weekend. We'll see. I'd like to see how this scenario plays out if someone were to "speed rock" it as you put it.

Again, I don't know how you interpreted my comments on IRC and here as anti-rentention shooting. I would have been shooting from #2, but solid chunks of plastic don't shoot, and I don't think the_alias would have really appreciated it either.

I think most of all, I need to get my ass in gear, save up some training cash, and see when Paul Gomez next plans on having a class here in Baton Rouge again. I've already got a handful of people interested in an advanced pistol course, so I may just spear head it and see if I can get one organized for him.

If you make it out to one of Paul's classes he can do a better job explaining retention shooting from #2 in person then I ever could over the internet. My opinion on it mirrors his. Here's a quick taste of it from him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOlq1nW4N9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytwieEQpmco

And like Dave_M said, good post, I appreciate it. It was certainly less confrontational and accusatory than others have been.

[fourway]

the concealed carry most likely to save your life in a knife fight is to carry your weapon in your hand ready with a small paper bag (sack to some of you) over it. Go for a brown bag, white bags are used by pharmacies and might draw unwanted attention.
The same carry is also very useful with an unsheathed blade. if you go in for that sort of thing.

[Biggin]

Murph, those Gomez videos echo exactly what I said and what Jimmy said . I can't wait to take a class with him.


I will give you some props, Murph. Unlike anyone else in the thread, you went out and made videos of the actual Tueller drill of you drawing while being charged. I haven't seen anyone else in this thread do it.

I really didn't think your draw was sloppy as much as it just wasn't smooth, but I know it's pretty hard to get a "one, two, three, extend" draw stroke down when someone/something is charging you.

[flsgear]

It's actually the '3 foot away' stickup reason that I've considered the pocket pistol/derringer + wallet holster option.



Of course there's always the oft-advised deescalation route. Give them your money and play nice. Get nasty if they don't. No sense getting your organs perforated if you don't need to, right? I know we all feel empowered by having a firearm for carry but the reality is that what regular guy says is 100% correct. At touching distance, your reaction/draw/fire time is too damn long. They have the initiative and the advantage. Your best bet is to mitigate that as much as possible before engaging or to neutralize the conflict.

And if you do get into a conflict with a knife wielding MZB at touching distance with your weapon NOT drawn well.. shame on you for having bad situational awareness. You didn't use the weapon that mattered - your brain and it's accompanying high tech sensor suite.

That being said, your hands/feet/elbows/knees/head are almost always available and drawn - so no wasted time if conflict is unavoidable. Just get that knife under control asap and then control the attacker. Learn a go-to disarm and make yourself proficient as hell with it.

Drawing your gun will require a significant enough opening, which unfortunately will likely not present itself easily

Anecdotal story relevant:
My stepfather (side note: he's a big guy - 6'4, built like a linebacker) is a delivery truck driver. He's long been an influence in my life regarding firearms. He was delivering chips (Former Route Manager for Middleswarth) to a store in central Harrisburg. He has always been wary of delivering in harrisburg especially given how exposed he is. He kept his loaded AMT 45 ACP pocket pistol (of which I am duly envious) in his fanny pack.

As he was delivering one of the last racks of chips he turned his back to go to the van and saw a man out of the corner of his eye wearing a trenchcoat. IN JUNE.

He immediately stopped, reached down to unzip the fanny pack and put his hand on his pistol. The man took no heed and at this point pulled out a damn MACHETE. As the man stepped forward (distance approx 15 feet per his recall) the store owner interceded and said "I don't think you want to do that sonny. He's got more than a calculator in that fanny pack." The man stopped, paused, and then ran out the back of the store as my stepfather continued the draw to expose the pistol.

Draw from that whatever you may. IMHO if the man was committed to attacking, he would have done so. However, he was more interested in an easy score of cash from a delivery driver and the payout wasn't worth the risk of having several new orifices.

What a draw from this:
A - situational awareness is key, as previously stated.
B - the draw had already begun the moment he saw the criminal in the sense that his hand was on the pistol and clear to pull and fire.
C - once the engagement began (the machete came out) he was already in the process of drawing as the man spoke.
D - the offender/perp was smaller than he was but clearly felt that despite the large physical advantage that his machete was more than sufficient.
E - until a tiny little pistol became involved.

[doc66]

I find that chasing lasers slows people down. I've fucked with a coworker of mine that swears by his laser. He spends more time zero'ing it, sighting it in, whatever, than actually using the fucking thing, I find. He also has a complete disconnect in his whole process compared to someone doing a normal 4 count draw and fire. He adds a whole other step whereby he draws, gets on target, ignores his sights, picks up the laser dot, puts the laser dot on target, waits until the dot is steady enough to fire, then pulls the trigger.

Wait, was that your buddy at the range the other day? I think I saw his twin.

[gelgoog]

Ninja-edit: Also, is this Tueller type scenario really even worth concern? I've seen much said that it's really not a likely scenario for a knife attacker to engage in, but I guess it's no different than training to have to engage a target at 50 yards with a pistol.

The very unlikelihood of that Tueller scenario underscores the point of this thread, I think. If it's that hard to draw, shoot and stop a crazed stabbyfiend from 21 feet away, how much harder will it be to do so from more realistic distances?


(edited away repetitive or pedantic bits, and my support of lasers - I defer to others' experience.)

Bingo. I used an extreme example that just happens to illustrate the dangers of how fast a knife wielding maniac could get on top of you from distance. Knowing a knife can be on you at those distances before you can draw your weapon (for most people) should bring home a few key things.

- If you can't draw your weapon in a split second then it will be of no use when you have someone on you in a split second.
- Just because you have a gun does not mean you will be able to use it when you need it.
- Momentum, merely being fast to draw does not mean you will have enough time to stop an attacker in their tracks before they can deliver a fatal blow to you.


Now the thread devolved into finding the perfect tactics, instead of being a discussion on our over-reliance on firearms and our often dismissal of the real dangers of a knife. This threat really hits home every time I report to work and am surrounded by 550 other inmates who at any moment could have nasty sharp objects waiting for me. For me, I am likely to have a blade in my abdomen before I even have time to react.

[squinty]

Ninja-edit: Also, is this Tueller type scenario really even worth concern? I've seen much said that it's really not a likely scenario for a knife attacker to engage in, but I guess it's no different than training to have to engage a target at 50 yards with a pistol.

The very unlikelihood of that Tueller scenario underscores the point of this thread, I think. If it's that hard to draw, shoot and stop a crazed stabbyfiend from 21 feet away, how much harder will it be to do so from more realistic distances?


(edited away repetitive or pedantic bits, and my support of lasers - I defer to others' experience.)

Bingo. I used an extreme example that just happens to illustrate the dangers of how fast a knife wielding maniac could get on top of you from distance. Knowing a knife can be on you at those distances before you can draw your weapon (for most people) should bring home a few key things.

- If you can't draw your weapon in a split second then it will be of no use when you have someone on you in a split second.
- Just because you have a gun does not mean you will be able to use it when you need it.
- Momentum, merely being fast to draw does not mean you will have enough time to stop an attacker in their tracks before they can deliver a fatal blow to you.


Now the thread devolved into finding the perfect tactics, instead of being a discussion on our over-reliance on firearms and our often dismissal of the real dangers of a knife. This threat really hits home every time I report to work and am surrounded by 550 other inmates who at any moment could have nasty sharp objects waiting for me. For me, I am likely to have a blade in my abdomen before I even have time to react.

So it would be only natural to discuss tactics for dealing with blade attacks. Just having a weapon won't be enough: having a weapon and being smooth and fast on the draw with it will be necessary, but not sufficient. What else do we need to do?

[the_alias]

So it would be only natural to discuss tactics for dealing with blade attacks. Just having a weapon won't be enough: having a weapon and being smooth and fast on the draw with it will be necessary, but not sufficient. What else do we need to do?

"WE" need to do nothing. People can go away from this in denial or they can accept some points that have been raised.

A) Gun's aren't magical talismans
B) Learn some goddam hand-to-hand skills for defending against a knife
C) Practice realistic scenarios and training (psst the Tueller Drill is not a realistic scenario)

[fourway]

So it would be only natural to discuss tactics for dealing with blade attacks. Just having a weapon won't be enough: having a weapon and being smooth and fast on the draw with it will be necessary, but not sufficient. What else do we need to do?

best case? already have the gun in your hand, assume everyone within 30 feet plans to stab you, and grow eyes in the back of your head.

Seriously though, surprise knife attacks are sort of imponderable, if you dont know you are being stabbed until it starts (and you probably won't) there's a very good chance that you'll be stabbed multiple times before you realize that you aren't just being punched... most knife attack survivors talk about feeling thuds rather than pokes and outside of prisons and a few other very stabby places usually mention not knowing at first that they were getting aired out.

You can practice responses to the few very rare well telegraphed knife attack scenarios that are borderline defensible all you like... but really if you are going to be somewhere that getting stabbed is a real possibility you should:
A) not go there
B) wear stuff that its hard to get through with a knife.
C) have somebody watching your back
D) already have your weapon in your hand
E) not let anyone anywhere near you
F) not go there

[Regular Guy]

So it would be only natural to discuss tactics for dealing with blade attacks. Just having a weapon won't be enough: having a weapon and being smooth and fast on the draw with it will be necessary, but not sufficient. What else do we need to do?

"WE" need to do nothing. People can go away from this in denial or they can accept some points that have been raised.

A) Gun's aren't magical talismans
B) Learn some goddam hand-to-hand skills for defending against a knife
C) Practice realistic scenarios and training (psst the Tueller Drill is not a realistic scenario)

^^^That. I'm a very pro gun guy (more of a pro self defense guy) but we just trained this again last night with my coach. He had the kinfe and I had to draw against the knife. I maybe got a 'Bang, bang' off before I was stabbed 4-6 times. The hit were in my estimation in the pelvic or upper thigh area. Then we switched it up and he drew and I stabbed. Same thing happened. I was better at foiling his draw but that's about it. He still got dead as did I, every time we had the gun.
Then we moved on to defending the knife instead of going for the draw. Stabs were minimal hits (the knife hit the outside of the arm or upper shoulder) and they were all well defended. We worked the blocks and counters, pushed off and made distance. Then we drew, almost everytime we took this tactic it was a victory or minimal stabby damage. I'm not saying our technqiue is perfect but then again nothing is. No fighting technqiue is perfect, you have to keep fighting until you win. If there were perfect technqiues, MMA would not be any fun to watch.