Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot rule)

[doc66]

Chiefly, that none of the locks, throws disarming techniques work until you've tenderized the subject.

The one thing that worries me about this is that while you're "tenderizing" the attacker, the attacker is working on getting slashes and stabs on you.

Like I aluded to before, (this thread? the other?) I don't want to trade punches for stabs, I don't want to trade bullets for stabs either.

Maybe I'm missing something here though.

When it comes to knives, you're going to get cut. There's just not a lot of ways around it. The good thing is that generally, when you show that you are armed better than they are, they will take a pass...

[Murph]

Chiefly, that none of the locks, throws disarming techniques work until you've tenderized the subject.

The one thing that worries me about this is that while you're "tenderizing" the attacker, the attacker is working on getting slashes and stabs on you.

Like I aluded to before, (this thread? the other?) I don't want to trade punches for stabs, I don't want to trade bullets for stabs either.

Maybe I'm missing something here though.

When it comes to knives, you're going to get cut. There's just not a lot of ways around it. The good thing is that generally, when you show that you are armed better than they are, they will take a pass...

1) I don't perscribe to the "magic talisman" theory.
2a) I'm not debating the issue of getting cut or not. But, I think everyone can agree that it's a matter not getting cut anymore than you have to.
2b) I believe in order to accomplish 2a, you need gain control of the knife ASAP.
3) The idea of doing X, Y, or Z in "trade" for getting stabbed will not accomplish 2a or 2b.

[doc66]

You are the one who asked if you are missing something.

If you plan on not getting cut, great, it's always good to have a plan.

As someone who has been cut, well, I guess I did something wrong. Like got into the fight in the first place.

[Murph]

You are the one who asked if you are missing something.

I was trying to be nice and let people have a chance for a rebuttal about why it would be good to trade outgoing strikes for incoming stabs.

If you plan on not getting cut, great, it's always good to have a plan.

I didn't saying anything about not getting cut at all.

"... anymore than you have to."

[gelgoog]

I want to see someone running away at top speed trying to draw a pistol from concealment, especially a front pocket, shoulder holster, leg holster, fannypack and EDC bag.

Use those carry methods in training and you will find out really quick why those are not a good way to carry a pistol. There's a reason why we have serious holsters. Draw times from pocket or man purse are terrible, even with no one trying to stop you.

which is why I want to see them in a video, so people can understand how slow they are to employ.

Most criminal assaults involve more than one bad guy. Shouldn't your training include the most likely scenario?

Yes, but I will use the most appropiate and advantageous position at the time , and If I only see one attacker coming at me with a nice, I will deal with that threat as best as I can.

[doc66]

Getting cut is just what is going to happen. How much depends on how well you control the guy waving the knife and how much experience they have using it verses your ability and experience stopping them. If they have more experience than you, you are getting sliced up. That's the long and short of it.

[Biggin]

Most criminal assaults involve more than one bad guy. Shouldn't your training include the most likely scenario?

Yes, but I will use the most appropiate and advantageous position at the time , and If I only see one attacker coming at me with a nice, I will deal with that threat as best as I can.

Sounds a lot like tunnel vision....

[gelgoog]

Most criminal assaults involve more than one bad guy. Shouldn't your training include the most likely scenario?

Yes, but I will use the most appropiate and advantageous position at the time , and If I only see one attacker coming at me with a nice, I will deal with that threat as best as I can.

Sounds a lot like tunnel vision....

if I am caught by surprise, which is easy to do with a gun or knife, then yes I am going to react to the most immediate threat with the most appriopriate position for that threat (if muscle memory takes hold). I am not jackie chan, I can not fight off 10 guys by using the liner in my coat. Controlling one person with a knife who is intent upon gutting you is a pretty tall order for anyone.

AFAIK, I did not advocate using suprine is every instance, I merely stated that it can be used effectively if a threat is very close and your main objective is to buy enough time to draw your pistol.

In POST they teach you a drill where you do a controlled backwards fall while drawing your gun. Feet up in the air pointed towards the bad guy so that you can shoot between your legs

Thats awesome, maybe they teach this at the advanced course:

wrong movie star. It looks more like this.




You've just been cruised.

[gelgoog]

gelgoog; I once heard someone say, "whenever I want to know what was current ten years ago, I look at how the police are training today."

I remember when we (LEOs, not MilCopp) trained that as well. We strongly encourage our students to stay off their backs these days. It's not that you don't have to understand what to do, should you find yourself on the ground, but the truth is, you really don't want to go to the ground on purpose. You are now limited to only one tactical move; kicking around like a turtle flipped over whilst praying.

Engaging from the upright is a far better choice.



Let's face it folks, how many of us outside of Call of Duty World at War have to worry about the possibility of someone brandishing a blade and running full tilt at you? Most of the time, regardless of what the Armed Citizen reports in the American Rifleman, simply looking like you are about to draw down is enough to discourage the common ne'er do well. If you've got someone running at you with a knife from any distance, you are either a LEO who just got the crazy-guy call of his life, or really, really, good at pissing off your ex-wife.

I would not use the supine on purpose if I did not have a firearm I was trying to draw and did not have enough time to draw it from a standing position, that was the whole point I was trying to make. You might be on the ground, but if you are cornered and have no where to run (like inside a convenience store) then it could by you the time you need, which is what the position was about, that and keeping my vital organs away from a knife without having to grapple with them.

In corrections where you can be in the yard or cell block without an ASP or firearm, then learning to control a blade from the standing position is a must. Chances are I am never going to see it coming...then again if they want to get me there is very little I can do about it. . I just believe we do way to much training from the standard weaver/isosceles stance, and not enough from other positions. For instance you could find yourself out in the open getting fired upon with only a street curb to shelter behind. It is good to train to make use of cover any cover, and be able to engage your targets from odd angles that limited cover might provide you.

[Regular Guy]

Getting cut is just what is going to happen. How much depends on how well you control the guy waving the knife and how much experience they have using it verses your ability and experience stopping them. If they have more experience than you, you are getting sliced up. That's the long and short of it.

For instance, this is not going to happen, but if you were to knife fight someone I've trained or my coach has trained, you're going to get cut/stabbed in places where it matters. I have never trained anyone who I thought was even criminally minded in the least but my stuff isn't rocket surgery. I can see a devious criminal figuring this stuff out. Sucks but there are some true bad ass's. Those I leave to docs care.

Murph, as far as trading blows for stabs that's why I stress block/strikes. Keep making everything they do hurt with the least amount of damage your way, make every block with the back of the forearm. I have no fool proof technique. Keep the block paramount, with the knife I take no chances. Make your strikes hard and make them count. If the strikes are enough, cool, if not your going to have to do a lock. You know all this already: Defending a knife is hard, I'm not saying man dance with the guy, but you can't just go straight for the knife when the guy is fresh. I've never in sparring gotten the lock or disarm right away. Granted, I've seen people do it but it's not easy.
Don't take this the wrong way but I think your looking for the perfect technique and I don't think it exists. Chiefly because no matter what, the first knife blow will be a surprise and be mentally jarring. Every real fight I've even been in I was not expecting it to go to that level, at all. The best I think you can do with a knife fight is minimize the damage to you and maximize the damage to him. At some point you're going to have to do some thing not in our nature to do, hurt the guy really bad. Sucks, I don't want to but the world isn't always the way I think it should be.

TLDR: Make blocks/counter strikes paramount. MOVE! Make the opportunity for counter strikes. When the opportunity becomes available you're going to have to hurt the guy gravely with everything you have. I don't want things to go like this but there are forces beyond my control and I will live in peace once the incident is over.

[Kutter_0311]

The one I didn't get a shot off at was the one guy who did a passenger side approach. He saw the pistol and had me before I could see him passed all the lights from the patrol car.

“The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the scabbard. The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow. And the cleanest cut is the one withheld.” -Unknown
I had never thought of approaching the passenger side of a car until one of my instructors mentioned it in Traffic Theory & Application. No officer had ever done that to me (and I lost track of how many times I'd been pulled over in my youth), nor had I seen it in any TV show or video. At that point the lightbulb went on, and I couldn't understand why I'd never seen it done.

I once heard someone say, "whenever I want to know what was current ten years ago, I look at how the police are training today."

I wonder if this is why...

[gelgoog]

Just as a demonstration and to beat a dead horse, there are things you can do with your feet while drawing your gun, if you are in supine.

[Murph]

Don't take this the wrong way but I think your looking for the perfect technique and I don't think it exists.

No offense taken... I don't know what gave anyone the impression that I'm looking for perfect technique. I've heard of a few, and tried a number in training, but it's always good to learn more.

Of course you have to make sure you have your BS filter on for a few techniques suggested in this thread.

[gelgoog]

Don't take this the wrong way but I think your looking for the perfect technique and I don't think it exists.

No offense taken... I don't know what gave anyone the impression that I'm looking for perfect technique. I've heard of a few, and tried a number in training, but it's always good to learn more.

Of course you have to make sure you have your BS filter on for a few techniques suggested in this thread.

[Regular Guy]

Don't take this the wrong way but I think your looking for the perfect technique and I don't think it exists.

No offense taken... I don't know what gave anyone the impression that I'm looking for perfect technique. I've heard of a few, and tried a number in training, but it's always good to learn more.

Of course you have to make sure you have your BS filter on for a few techniques suggested in this thread.

Well, I'm kind of looking for my personal perfect technique. I really think its something totally tailored to the individual. Some folks excel in locks, others in strikes. Yes, ever vigilant for BS but it's easy to farm out, just take it to the mat.

[JTNieman]

Not to harp on the supine thing, but gelgoog, where have you seen supine advocated in the manner you purport it being useful?

You cited a video someone put together of Costa demonstrating how to fire from Supine, but it gave no context or reasoning.

I'm curious who actually teaches going supine to increase time to draw. Very curious.

[gelgoog]

Not to harp on the supine thing, but gelgoog, where have you seen supine advocated in the manner you purport it being useful?

You cited a video someone put together of Costa demonstrating how to fire from Supine, but it gave no context or reasoning.

I'm curious who actually teaches going supine to increase time to draw. Very curious.

I am not sure of any well known name who teaches it. I just know it worked pretty well in my AT classes. A few of my instructors were a bit unorthodox, but I would prefer to try weird and uncommon techniques and see what works before dismissing them just because larry vickers does not teach it.

Hey if it works for you, cool, if you are not comfortable doing it then that is also your choice. But for a single attacker with a knife coming at me without proper time to draw from a standing position it made sense. I was in a low position that is not easily for someone standing to attack (especially in the confines of a small alley), I could block with my feet and legs which have more power than my arms as well as can take more abuse giving me 3 extra feet from my vitals. Also that split second he is trying to decide how to attack me on the ground should be enough for me to draw my pistol and engage him, something I could not do standing up.

I am not comfortable trying to wrestle a knife out of someone's hands, it always seemed like too much of a gamble in which any way I went about it I would likely end up getting stabbed several times before I ever got control of the knife if at all. Sure the scripted exercises in training seem like a good idea, but I have my doubts. Remember I am only suggesting that supine might be a good technique to use in a very limited situation in which you are fending off one knife wielding attacker with the purpose of drawing your sidearm. I am not saying you should use it for every situation.

Next time you do some training just give it a try. start standing up, have a guy with a plastic knife pull on you at say 5 feet and rush. Then you fall back into supine and see how long he delays before trying to attack you on the ground, see if you can draw your pistol and fire a few rounds before he gets any where near your vitals. Use your legs to kick or at least keep him a few feet away from you while doing the draw or firing.

[DannusMaximus]

Anybody posting in this thread (with the exception of doc66) ever actually seen a person who has been sliced up in an attack with a sharp object?

*shudder*

You can Google all the images you want of a knife wound, but unless you've seen the results up close and personal I don't think you can really fathom what even an incompetent person can do with a knife (or broken bottle, or the lid of a tin can, or...). It's amazingly horrible.

I think any training for a knife attack should simply involve pulling your EDC as quickly as possible and firing until you slide-lock. If dropping on your rump accomplishes that, happy day. If kicking the person's legs while they charge you accomplishes that, happy day. If backflipping over them while drawing duel nickel-plated long slide .45's accomplishes that, very happy day indeed.

Simply saying "You've got to be prepard to get cut" does a real disservice to how godawful (and rapidly fatal) these injuries can be. I personally wouldn't plan on being able to keep my shit together enough to pull any kind of complicated ninja moves on some attacker if I suddenly found myself staring at the bad guy over the spurting stumps of what used to my own fingers, but you may be more cool under pressure than I am.

[Dave_M]

Anybody posting in this thread (with the exception of doc66) ever actually seen a person who has been sliced up in an attack with a sharp object?

*raises hand*

One guy stabbed 12 times after a fight (he lived, barely; thanks to people such as yourself) and another with his left forearm sliced up (after using his left arm as a shield to deflect cuts to his face/vitals). One more with his throat cut by a broken bottle (he still managed to choke the dude out after, though he has a nasty/badass scar to show for it).


Nope. Not pretty at all.

[Maverick299]

Whatever happened to good old fashioned bad assery? No situation is going to be the same and no move is ever going to work for all situations. If someone rushes you with a knife and a serious intent to do you harm chances are even Bruce Muhammad Norris Lee is going to suffer some stitches from the attack.

[USMCSergeant]

A knife fight happened in my county last night, single stab wound to the upper left chest, more under the left arm it appears. He didn't make it. Knife was described as a "hunting knife"

An old neighbor of mine was stabbed and sliced up pretty bad because of an altercation on a basketball court. He fought the guy off, but had several nasty, deep lacerations on his arms and a stab wound in the lower abdomen. Knife fights are brutal.

[400 Grains]

I've been cut, superficially, (they weren't good at it), and I've seen a few dozen stabbed or cut, with a number of them expiring or expired on my arrival. I have a lot of nice knives, and usually have one on. I've even taken a little knife fighting instruction from a friend for fun.

I won't be getting in any knife fights, unless someone takes my gun and misses my knife. There's a reason the good Lord gave us firearms.

[Cherokee John]

Speed.Of.Light.

Quick draw Pistol vs. Evil Balloons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsU5AMxvlKg&feature=related

[squinty]

Anybody posting in this thread (with the exception of doc66) ever actually seen a person who has been sliced up in an attack with a sharp object?

*shudder*

You can Google all the images you want of a knife wound, but unless you've seen the results up close and personal I don't think you can really fathom what even an incompetent person can do with a knife (or broken bottle, or the lid of a tin can, or...). It's amazingly horrible.

I think any training for a knife attack should simply involve pulling your EDC as quickly as possible and firing until you slide-lock. If dropping on your rump accomplishes that, happy day. If kicking the person's legs while they charge you accomplishes that, happy day. If backflipping over them while drawing duel nickel-plated long slide .45's accomplishes that, very happy day indeed.

Simply saying "You've got to be prepard to get cut" does a real disservice to how godawful (and rapidly fatal) these injuries can be. I personally wouldn't plan on being able to keep my shit together enough to pull any kind of complicated ninja moves on some attacker if I suddenly found myself staring at the bad guy over the spurting stumps of what used to my own fingers, but you may be more cool under pressure than I am.

Yes. I've seen people sliced up in a variety of ways with a variety of implements. Haven't seen many actual fights, but I've seen the after effects of a good many.