Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot rule)

[gelgoog]

There is a similar thread in cp&p on this as well. Just cant link with my phone!


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Dealing with a knife threat
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=91085

guess I missed that thread

[phil_in_cs]

So...

My take away from this entire thread so far is that if a person with a knife decides to ambush you from close range you're going to get sliced to ribbons and there's pretty much not a damn thing you can do to stop it and survival will be a matter of blind luck or providence (if the person really, really wants to kill you, that is, which they must, or they wouldn't have just ambushed you at close range with a knife).

Pretty much cover it?

In POST they teach you a drill where you do a controlled backwards fall while drawing your gun. Feet up in the air pointed towards the bad guy so that you can shoot between your legs while keeping your vital organs as far away as possible. In MMA fights a guy on his back does a similar move and it is difficult for your opponent to jump on top of you with your feet extended out. Your legs can take a lot more abuse than the rest of your body so it buys you vital time. Wrestling with a knife wielding opponent (especially one with any kind of training) is going to end up badly for you.

If they are coming at you from distance, keep diagonal movement and try to keep creating as much distance as possible while you engage them. Also never stop shooting until the threat is either dead or fleeing. You are not going to knock your opponent down with incoming fire unless you destroy his CNC or immobilize him by blowing out his joints.

Getting yourself onto the ground is a bad idea. What if the guy has buddies? You just invited yourself to a curb stomp fest. Your mobility is a precious asset and you shouldn't give it up lightly. We aren't discussing a cage fight where there are only two opponents, who are operating under a set of safety rules enforced by a referee.

[Regular Guy]

If you don't want to get the shit stabbed out of you, you have to control the attacker's knife.

The only way I know of to do control the knife, is practicing good hand to hand knife defense techniques.

Stepping off line won't stop you from getting stabbed, punching and kick won't stop you from getting stabbed, stabbing back won't stop you from getting stabbed, shooting back won't stop you from getting stabbed.

What's that leave? Controlling the fucking knife.

^^^That. Control the knife or the appendage that controls it. Disable it. Its the most important thing for the rest of your life. Once the stabby is dealt with then deal with the possessor.

[Regular Guy]

Just how simple can a stabby be? I gave my son a hatchet and he makes short sharpened sticks then fire hardens them. Just for a hoot a stabbed a heavy moving blanket. With moderate force it went right through. This realization brought to you by a 10 year old boy.

[Kutter_0311]

Just how simple can a stabby be? I gave my son a hatchet and he makes short sharpened sticks then fire hardens them. Just for a hoot a stabbed a heavy moving blanket. With moderate force it went right through. This realization brought to you by a 10 year old boy.

Kids are dangerous. My 7y/o is a BB sniper already. Where the fuck does the time go...

As I mentioned in another thread(dealing with "weapon free environments" like school and college), pencils and pens make holes.

[gelgoog]

So...

My take away from this entire thread so far is that if a person with a knife decides to ambush you from close range you're going to get sliced to ribbons and there's pretty much not a damn thing you can do to stop it and survival will be a matter of blind luck or providence (if the person really, really wants to kill you, that is, which they must, or they wouldn't have just ambushed you at close range with a knife).

Pretty much cover it?

In POST they teach you a drill where you do a controlled backwards fall while drawing your gun. Feet up in the air pointed towards the bad guy so that you can shoot between your legs while keeping your vital organs as far away as possible. In MMA fights a guy on his back does a similar move and it is difficult for your opponent to jump on top of you with your feet extended out. Your legs can take a lot more abuse than the rest of your body so it buys you vital time. Wrestling with a knife wielding opponent (especially one with any kind of training) is going to end up badly for you.

If they are coming at you from distance, keep diagonal movement and try to keep creating as much distance as possible while you engage them. Also never stop shooting until the threat is either dead or fleeing. You are not going to knock your opponent down with incoming fire unless you destroy his CNC or immobilize him by blowing out his joints.

Getting yourself onto the ground is a bad idea. What if the guy has buddies? You just invited yourself to a curb stomp fest. Your mobility is a precious asset and you shouldn't give it up lightly. We aren't discussing a cage fight where there are only two opponents, who are operating under a set of safety rules enforced by a referee.

If he has buddies knife and is that close already before you have been able to draw then your already fucked. Mobility only works if you have somewhere to run, which a lot of time you will not.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Wow. Some interesting suggestions here.

Fall down? No. Wrong answer.
Run? Might work. I'm not totally confident i n my running ability. I'm working on it, as I'd like to add that to my arsenal.

Now, 21 feet is max, right? Okay, so at 3-4 feet, it's not a gunfight. It's not a gunfight until I can get my gun out. Fuck a Tueller drill, fuck martial arts, it's time for the old OODA loop.
Observe: There's a fight, and I'm not part of it
Orient: There may or may not be a knife, but I'm too close to draw, even drawing my own knife is too slow.
Decide: It's clobberin' time.
Act: Clobber.

In short, instead of trying to draw so fast that you actually phase into the 13th dimension for a moment, why not work on your up-close and personal clobberin' skills? There is no one martial art that is key (each has a body type and a fight-type they favor) but any defensive training will give you the basics. From there, it's on you to continue learning to clobber.

[gelgoog]

Wow. Some interesting suggestions here.

Fall down? No. Wrong answer.

Give it a try, the supine position actually works quite well for fending off a knife wielding opponent when he is real close and you are trying to use your sidearm.



This was the only position that I found works well enough for most shooters, it is more instinctual and does not include any fancy handwork to control the blade. It creates distance, leaves your vital organs farthest away from your attacker and puts you in a position that makes it difficult for him to reach. Your legs work well to repel any lunges and can absorb a lot more damage than your torso.

Do not dismiss it merely because you have not tried it in practice.

[phil_in_cs]

Wow. Some interesting suggestions here.

Fall down? No. Wrong answer.

Give it a try, the supine position actually works quite well for fending off a knife wielding opponent when he is real close and you are trying to use your sidearm.

[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1L7_FS3v_w&feature=related[/YouTube]

This was the only position that I found works well enough for most shooters, it is more instinctual and does not include any fancy handwork to control the blade. It creates distance, leaves your vital organs farthest away from your attacker and puts you in a position that makes it difficult for him to reach. Your legs work well to repel any lunges and can absorb a lot more damage than your torso.

Do not dismiss it merely because you have not tried it in practice.

I fall down and get taken down all the time. It sucks. Unless you have major jits skills, someone with their full weight on you, stabbing down with the help of gravity, is not a place you want to be. I'm 185lbs - pulling a 225lb guy down onto me is a sure way to get the wind knocked of me, no matter what else happens. If he's had some football at some point in his life, he's coming down with his shoulder into your chest. Linebacker-jitsu is very effective.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Wow. Some interesting suggestions here.

Fall down? No. Wrong answer.

Give it a try, the supine position actually works quite well for fending off a knife wielding opponent when he is real close and you are trying to use your sidearm.

[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1L7_FS3v_w&feature=related[/YouTube]

This was the only position that I found works well enough for most shooters, it is more instinctual and does not include any fancy handwork to control the blade. It creates distance, leaves your vital organs farthest away from your attacker and puts you in a position that makes it difficult for him to reach. Your legs work well to repel any lunges and can absorb a lot more damage than your torso.

Do not dismiss it merely because you have not tried it in practice.

I fall down and get taken down all the time. It sucks. Unless you have major jits skills, someone with their full weight on you, stabbing down with the help of gravity, is not a place you want to be. I'm 185lbs - pulling a 225lb guy down onto me is a sure way to get the wind knocked of me, no matter what else happens. If he's had some football at some point in his life, he's coming down with his shoulder into your chest. Linebacker-jitsu is very effective.

And if he's had some prison at some point in his life, he's coming down with his knife into your chest. Just putting it out there.

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[Niblick]

Don't fall back and shoot through your legs, You'll shoot your toe off, kid.

[gelgoog]

Wow. Some interesting suggestions here.

Fall down? No. Wrong answer.

Give it a try, the supine position actually works quite well for fending off a knife wielding opponent when he is real close and you are trying to use your sidearm.

[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1L7_FS3v_w&feature=related[/YouTube]

This was the only position that I found works well enough for most shooters, it is more instinctual and does not include any fancy handwork to control the blade. It creates distance, leaves your vital organs farthest away from your attacker and puts you in a position that makes it difficult for him to reach. Your legs work well to repel any lunges and can absorb a lot more damage than your torso.

Do not dismiss it merely because you have not tried it in practice.

I fall down and get taken down all the time. It sucks. Unless you have major jits skills, someone with their full weight on you, stabbing down with the help of gravity, is not a place you want to be. I'm 185lbs - pulling a 225lb guy down onto me is a sure way to get the wind knocked of me, no matter what else happens. If he's had some football at some point in his life, he's coming down with his shoulder into your chest. Linebacker-jitsu is very effective.

You don't use supine when he is already on top of you. You do it before he has made contact.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

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[phil_in_cs]

You don't use supine when he is already on top of you. You do it before he has made contact.

The lesson of the Tueller Drill, your original point, is that if someone is still 7 yards away, they can get on you before you draw. Your plan is to both draw and go to your back, and do that in less time that simply drawing? If you can't draw before they can run 7 yards, how will you drop and draw before they are on you?

You can measure the time if want with a shot clock. Do a normal draw on the tone, and then do a draw/drop to supine on the tone. What's your time to first hit on the draw/drop?

[fourway]

I keep reading these theoretical scenario threads and thinking the same thing.
It just doesn't work like that.
Virtually nobody stands 21 feet away from you, brandishes their knife menacingly and then on the word go starts charging. (SBCs excepted but they like to give you time to draw and aim)

You get stabbed (and shot) by people who walk up to you smiling... by people who were running when you first saw them a second ago and who appear to be on a line going past you and seem not to be paying any attention to you til they course correct at the last second and start slashing... by people you never even saw coming.

Sure the 21 foot knife gun standoff happens (there are youtube videos right?) but the percentage knife/gun incidents that follow that scenario are vanishingly small in the great scheme of things.
Your chances of being in a 21 foot quickdraw against a sprinter with a visible drawn blade are so small compared to all the other ways that someone is likely perforate you that concentrating on the mostly no win theoretical outcomes is largely a pointless exercise in mental masturbation.

If you want to survive knife attacks the thing you ought to be putting your energy into is understanding how they actually happen in the real world. You should be putting that understanding into your everyday awareness of what's going on around you.

[Murph]

the_alias and I hung out this afternoon. We made a couple videos about the Tueller Drill. We tried a couple things pointed out in this thread. Stay tuned for youtube videos soon.

[JTNieman]

I just took a Costa class a month or so ago.

While I hate training the Supine position, and think it's ridiculous, I do feel obligated to mention the caveat that Costa never taught it as a GO TO position. He only ever brought it up as a "If you ever find yourself in this position, your world may be fucked... but here is a chance to try something that may give yourself the skills to get your way out of the fucking".

So he never taught us to GO supine. He only taught us how to get a shootable platform in a supine position, and to maybe be able to work ourselves back to our feet like intelligent people who want to win, will do.

tl;dr, you don't ever -use- supine. You find yourself in supine due to unfortunate accidents, like being tackled or tripping, or something out of your control or by environment. It's an "oh shit!" not a tool.

[doc66]

This is why you side step, get off line, and move, as you draw. What they are forgetting to tell you is that when you change positions in reaction to their movement, guess what? THEY HAVE TO CHANGE THEIR LINE OF ATTACK NOW AND THEY ARE REACTING TO YOU. Keep moving. Keep shooting and don't stop. Going to your back is stupid. Stop thinking linear. This is a range fallacy that is brought about by having to train front to back on the range. One of the things I always liked about Akido is that you never trained laterally, you trained 360 degrees. This is how we should be thinking, not in a straight line. Unfortunately, we can't always train this, and we can't really do it live, but we can practice it by getting in the habit of stepping aside before and as we draw to get off line and engaging the target down range. No, most of us can't draw in 1.5 seconds, but we can lengthen the time we have to act by moving ourselves.

Could you still get stabbed? Yep. Probably, maybe, who knows? But why not lessen that chance as much as yo can by not being where they expect you to be?

[the_alias]

Sorry but changing line of attack is easy.

Vids to come...


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[doc66]

Sorry but changing line of attack is easy.

Vids to come...


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Okay, so we just stand there? I guess what I'm saying is do something. Don't just stand there.

[Murph]

Sorry but changing line of attack is easy.
Vids to come...
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Okay, so we just stand there? I guess what I'm saying is do something. Don't just stand there.

And what we're just saying, (and will show with videos) is that standing or moving while drawing a pistol, you're still going to eat it. Just sayin...

[TDW586]

It depends on the distance. At a full seven yards, lateral movement might be enough to deal with the attack. At 1 or 2 yards, you've got to deal with that blade before you think about your gun.

As the DLO system demonstrates in drills, that can be as simple (relatively speaking) as blocking the initial thrust and driving them off balance with a shove, shoulder check, or headbutt. It could also be slinging them off to get behind or beside them and then drawing with lateral movement.

At arms length, you absolutely have to use everything you've got to defend against that knife, and make space for you to draw and engage.

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[Power Fail]

I just feel the need to point something out. The Tueller Drill was never about concealed carriers. It was used to illustrate why a law enforcement officer is justified in shooting an attacker who "only" has a knife and is "that" far away. As previously mentioned, non-LEO related knife attacks happen at contact distance. I don't really know why the whole 21ft thing even gets brought up from a concealed/open carry standpoint.

[gelgoog]

You don't use supine when he is already on top of you. You do it before he has made contact.

The lesson of the Tueller Drill, your original point, is that if someone is still 7 yards away, they can get on you before you draw. Your plan is to both draw and go to your back, and do that in less time that simply drawing? If you can't draw before they can run 7 yards, how will you drop and draw before they are on you?

You can measure the time if want with a shot clock. Do a normal draw on the tone, and then do a draw/drop to supine on the tone. What's your time to first hit on the draw/drop?

the point is that you are easier to stab standing up, and your guys are right in line with a knife jab. If you do a controlled supine when he is that close he then has a more difficult time getting to your organs. Your feet are used to block direct access to your organs and buy time while you draw. I need to get with one of my instructors and make some vids of this (if he will allow it). I can only see it useful on a knife wielding bad guy who is very close and surprises you. It is not ideal, but it seems to work better than many other of the complicated drills to avoid a knife.

-

And whats going to stop you from getting grabbed while standing up while the other guy stabs you? Unless you are jason borne, two badguys are going to fuck you up in this situation regardless of what you do.

I just feel the need to point something out. The Tueller Drill was never about concealed carriers. It was used to illustrate why a law enforcement officer is justified in shooting an attacker who "only" has a knife and is "that" far away. As previously mentioned, non-LEO related knife attacks happen at contact distance. I don't really know why the whole 21ft thing even gets brought up from a concealed/open carry standpoint.

it gets brought up to show that just because you have a gun and someone else is a little ways away with a knife does not mean you are safe. people who carry, often get a rambo complex and think they are invincible. Having a gun on you means only that, it does not mean it will save your life.

And what we're just saying, (and will show with videos) is that standing or moving while drawing a pistol, you're still going to eat it. Just sayin...

I want to see someone running away at top speed trying to draw a pistol from concealment, especially a front pocket, shoulder holster, leg holster, fannypack and EDC bag. They have to be chased by someone with a felt marker and see how many marks they get on them.