Mobile NVIS Systems (ex- 6m v. 10m)

[Tater Raider]

CB I'm alright with, but my electronics training the Navy gave me was a long, long time ago and I never was into HAM but am fixin' to get my feet wet.

So I'll ask the Gurus here, were you to get a mobile rig for your BOV and were limited to 6m and 10m, which would you pick and why?

[KYZHunters]

TR. If it was just for local comms with people you know, I guess I'd get 6m simply because it's less likely that someone would be listening in. If you want to talk over longer distances and with people outside of your area I'd go 10m. When 6m band is open it's a lot of fun, but the Maximum Usable Frequency (MUF) doesn't include 6m very often. As the current sunspot cycle declines, 10m will also retreat to local comm only.
If it's only for local comm, I'd go 2m, you have more options in gear and a commensurate reduction in price.

[charlie505]

HI
I am looking at the Yaesu FT857D - all bands covered - I would rather have two radios but budget and room in my Rav4 limit me. I hate having all my eggs in one basket. I really liked the FT817 but its a low power radio.

I would get a dual band unit - 6m and 10m.

2m and 70cm are good for close work. If you decide on 6m get a three band unit that also covers 70cm and 2m.

It depends on what you plan on doing with it and your budget. There are lots of choices.

Sorry I know this does not help - I was going thru the same questions as you and decided on the multi-band radio.

[zommoz10]

I would go with 6 meters if I had to choose only one.
More people listening is my reason.

Of course I have a quad band mobile Yaesu 6/10/2/70cm but I don't actually use it in a vehicle.

[KJ4VOV]

Neither is a great choice as your only band in a mobile, but if that's the only choices you had I'd look first to see what kind of 6m activity there was in your area. Some areas have pretty active 6m comms, some are 6m wastelands. If you're fortunate enough to live somewhere that has activity on 6m, maybe even a repeater or two, that's what I'd go for. The reason being that while 10m can be pretty active, and with the sunspot cycle stepping up you can get some real distance out of it, the cycle won't last forever, and 10m will become a desolate wasteland again... except for all the CB'rs who run illegal rigs and think it's their new "no rules" playground.

[charlie505]

I would go with 6 meters if I had to choose only one.
More people listening is my reason.

Of course I have a quad band mobile Yaesu 6/10/2/70cm but I don't actually use it in a vehicle.

Is that the FM only model??

[zommoz10]

I would go with 6 meters if I had to choose only one.
More people listening is my reason.

Of course I have a quad band mobile Yaesu 6/10/2/70cm but I don't actually use it in a vehicle.

Is that the FM only model??

Yes.
I have heard 10m repeaters coming from your neck of the woods 4 or 5 states away.

[charlie505]

I would go with 6 meters if I had to choose only one.
More people listening is my reason.

Of course I have a quad band mobile Yaesu 6/10/2/70cm but I don't actually use it in a vehicle.

Is that the FM only model??

Yes.
I have heard 10m repeaters coming from your neck of the woods 4 or 5 states away.

Do you see a down side to not having SSB capabilities??
I was really intrested in that radio, but some local hams said they wouldnt touch it because it lacked the SSB.

I am looking at the FT-817ND - like that its portable and will also add an output amp to boost power output when working as a base station.

[Boyscoutdreams]

SSB will usually give you three times the power and is what most people trying to talk distance use. Like any generalization there are exceptions. I don't know if one talks farther then another (SSB vs FM or AM) or how the Line of Sight is affected. I'd definitely go HF if I could only have one radio which 10meter is.
John

[zommoz10]

Do you see a down side to not having SSB capabilities??

If I cared about DXing I would.
Alas, I do not.

I really don't use 10 meters at all.
And although I can occasionally hear the 10 meter repeaters, I can't hit them. In fairness , I don't have an antenna suitable for 10m connected and I'm not about to switch back and forth each time I want to change bands.

[Boyscoutdreams]

And although I can occasionally hear the 10 meter repeaters, I can't hit them. In fairness , I don't have an antenna suitable for 10m connected and I'm not about to switch back and forth each time I want to change bands.

You could always put up a multi-band antenna. There are several styles that will work well. I like CB and have an old Antron 99A with the tuning rings. I, without using a tuner, have a very acceptable match from the top of 10meter down to about 17 or 20 meters.

Anyway, good luck and have fun with it!
John

[zommoz10]

I have a triband base antenna. 6m, 440, 144.
That's what I've been using with it.

[Tater Raider]

FWIW: I'm looking for a real-life mostly reliable DX range around 550 miles if possible. I'm trying to set up coms with an out-of-state relative - we use each other as a BOL and reliable coms suddenly make sense to at least address and given a choice mobile seems to me the best place to start.

Going off the convo so far it looks like 10m SSB is the best bet, correct?

[zommoz10]

Yes but you can't count on either of them being there as band conditions will dictate whether you can make the contact. Depends on the solar cycle. You may be able to make contact during the day but not at night. There's easier bands to work.

[KJ4VOV]

FWIW: I'm looking for a real-life mostly reliable DX range around 550 miles if possible. I'm trying to set up coms with an out-of-state relative - we use each other as a BOL and reliable coms suddenly make sense to at least address and given a choice mobile seems to me the best place to start.

Going off the convo so far it looks like 10m SSB is the best bet, correct?

For now, with the current solar cycle, I'd give it a qualified "yes". Long term? I'm thinking more along the lines of 40 or 20 meter phone at that distance.

[Boyscoutdreams]

FWIW: I'm looking for a real-life mostly reliable DX range around 550 miles if possible. I'm trying to set up coms with an out-of-state relative - we use each other as a BOL and reliable coms suddenly make sense to at least address and given a choice mobile seems to me the best place to start.

Going off the convo so far it looks like 10m SSB is the best bet, correct?

If you have the room, there is an antenna called a Ground Loop or Horizontal Loop. It is designed to give you NVIS (Near Vertical Incident Signal is I believe what the acronym stands for). What it does is sends almost the entire signal strait up, it reflects of the Ionosphere, and comes down in a cone of influence (up side down ice cream cone). Adjust your height, and very minute tilt will change the area that the signal comes down in. Kinda think of it as a beam antenna reflecting the signal off the ozone layers. Maybe not an accurate description but one easy to visualize. Your cone of influence works best if both stations use the same type of antenna.

Here are a couple of links but there are lots more.

http://www.k5rcd.org/hor%20loop%20instruct.htm

http://www.donkeith.com/n4kc/article.php?p=12

http://n1su.com/loop.html

There are tons more out there but this will get you started. They are made using just wire, coax, and a few insulators and string. I have one that I use four 10' pieces of pvc pipe to hold up. Great receiving antennas regardless of whether or not you use it to transmit. Most of these are really long and used for the 160 meter but the formula is adjustable for most other bands. Lower bands reflect this way better and more reliably from what I have learned (160 meter to 40meter). I don't see why 10 meter would not work esp with the short skip your looking at but have not really tried it on it. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in here. For the 20 or 30 dollars it's easy to try. Just remember to do the math for the matching coax. I'm using RG59 with the copper braid because I cannot figure out how to solder the foil in some of the other coaxes to use. A few of the ARRL antenna books also have great directions on building this antenna.
John

[KJ4VOV]

FWIW: I'm looking for a real-life mostly reliable DX range around 550 miles if possible. I'm trying to set up coms with an out-of-state relative - we use each other as a BOL and reliable coms suddenly make sense to at least address and given a choice mobile seems to me the best place to start.

Going off the convo so far it looks like 10m SSB is the best bet, correct?

If you have the room, there is an antenna called a Ground Loop or Horizontal Loop. It is designed to give you NVIS (Near Vertical Incident Signal is I believe what the acronym stands for). What it does is sends almost the entire signal strait up, it reflects of the Ionosphere, and comes down in a cone of influence (up side down ice cream cone). Adjust your height, and very minute tilt will change the area that the signal comes down in. Kinda think of it as a beam antenna reflecting the signal off the ozone layers. Maybe not an accurate description but one easy to visualize. Your cone of influence works best if both stations use the same type of antenna.

Here are a couple of links but there are lots more.

http://www.k5rcd.org/hor%20loop%20instruct.htm

http://www.donkeith.com/n4kc/article.php?p=12

http://n1su.com/loop.html

There are tons more out there but this will get you started. They are made using just wire, coax, and a few insulators and string. I have one that I use four 10' pieces of pvc pipe to hold up. Great receiving antennas regardless of whether or not you use it to transmit. Most of these are really long and used for the 160 meter but the formula is adjustable for most other bands. Lower bands reflect this way better and more reliably from what I have learned (160 meter to 40meter). I don't see why 10 meter would not work esp with the short skip your looking at but have not really tried it on it. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in here. For the 20 or 30 dollars it's easy to try. Just remember to do the math for the matching coax. I'm using RG59 with the copper braid because I cannot figure out how to solder the foil in some of the other coaxes to use. A few of the ARRL antenna books also have great directions on building this antenna.
John

Yes, great antennas, but a little difficult to use mobile, as he specified in his first post.

[gary in ohio]

FWIW: I'm looking for a real-life mostly reliable DX range around 550 miles if possible. I'm trying to set up coms with an out-of-state relative - we use each other as a BOL and reliable coms suddenly make sense to at least address and given a choice mobile seems to me the best place to start.

Going off the convo so far it looks like 10m SSB is the best bet, correct?

Your NOT going to get reliable 550 mile range on 6 or 10 meters. NOT GOING TO happen. yes 10m and 6m can do world wide range but your reliable requirement pretty much negates either band. You need to look at using 80m and 40m for your communications. 40m for the day and 80m at night.

10m is going to be hit miss, 15 meters not much better, 20m is much longer range most of the time.

[Boyscoutdreams]

[/quote] Yes, great antennas, but a little difficult to use mobile, as he specified in his first post. [/quote]

Mmm Opps. Yea,,, they are anything but mobile. Well, you could use them mobile,,, just not while mobile. You'd have to stop and set the antenna up and then repack it. Esp if you use the PVC pipe to hold the antenna. Quarterwave above ground for the NVIS would be what, 8 or 9 feet high?

Sorry, regardless, It is not really a mobile antenna. Dual 102 inch whips on the rear bumper,, causing the car to act like a directional antenna? No,,, even with the Max allowed power it probably would not do it. To far for ground wave, to close for skip. At least on 10 meter I think.

[KJ4VOV]

Yes, great antennas, but a little difficult to use mobile, as he specified in his first post.

Mmm Opps. Yea,,, they are anything but mobile. Well, you could use them mobile,,, just not while mobile. You'd have to stop and set the antenna up and then repack it. Esp if you use the PVC pipe to hold the antenna. Quarterwave above ground for the NVIS would be what, 8 or 9 feet high?

Sorry, regardless, It is not really a mobile antenna. Dual 102 inch whips on the rear bumper,, causing the car to act like a directional antenna? No,,, even with the Max allowed power it probably would not do it. To far for ground wave, to close for skip. At least on 10 meter I think.

I'm thinking either a full size or half size hamstick for whatever band he settles on. I use them on my truck, with quick disconnects and a coax switch between two mounts, to quickly switch between bands and they work quite well for me.

[Tater Raider]

Do they even make a 20m mobile transceiver?

I don't mind having a portable antenna to set up and take down when I stop, provided I have a mobile antenna for use underway and that set-up and take down is a fast process. I imagine I could use an antenna switch and put up some quick disconnects for the portable antenna. I know that's a horse of another color but I'm game.

20m and up has been noted for a base station at a later time though, and with much thanks for all the feedback. Anything else I should know before I begin budgeting this mostrosity?

[CitizenZ]

You're describing several things. All of which are hard to do reliably, and even harder on a budget. IMO, I think you need to consider fixed directional antennas at each location or start considering other bands and maybe NVIS.

NVIS antennas and bands could do what you need. That would be 40 meters during the day and 75/80 meters at night. A simple field portable wire NVIS antennas, car mount NVIS, and high gain NVIS for each location.

[KJ4VOV]

Do they even make a 20m mobile transceiver?

I don't mind having a portable antenna to set up and take down when I stop, provided I have a mobile antenna for use underway and that set-up and take down is a fast process. I imagine I could use an antenna switch and put up some quick disconnects for the portable antenna. I know that's a horse of another color but I'm game.

20m and up has been noted for a base station at a later time though, and with much thanks for all the feedback. Anything else I should know before I begin budgeting this mostrosity?

Every major manufacturer has at least three mobile HF rigs in their lineup right now, and when you look at discontinued models the numbers are in the hundreds. They'll set you back a few sheckles, but vastly improve your comms possibilities. Currently in my truck I have an Icom IC-706MkIIG (160m - 70cm) that's my workhorse, and a Yaesu FT-757GXII (160m - 10m) as my backup HF rig.

[coldshot]

Would a Yaesu FT-897D and a Buddipole using 40/80 meters work for this?