PAW Stairwell Navigation

[BullOnParade]

I've been thinking about this one for a while, but think I need the help of ZS.
(Mods, if you'd rather see this in WWYD, you know the drill)

I live in a high rise apartment, 22 floors of apartments, 24 units/floor, average occupancy 2 people/unit (equals roughly 1056 occupants). My plan in almost all emergency scenarios is to bug in, if things get too bad, I want to be prepared to bug out to my predetermined location. The following scenario is unlikely, but something I think should be considered by anyone in a high rise apartment/condo building, even to a lesser scale than I am about to depict.

As I stated, disaster strikes, I want to bug in. As time goes by, I determine that staying is no longer a viable option, and I want to move as many of my supplies to my vehicle as possible for the trip out of the city. What would be the most efficient/safest option to move large quantities of gear from my upper floor apartment (lets say 23rd floor, just to have the most extreme distance), to my vehicle 2 stories underground?

Obviously, first choice would be elevator, but there are major flaws with using the elevators in a survival situation:

1) Order of operations for an elevator are to start from the top floor requesting service, and move that person down. If a person on a lower floor is waiting for service, the elevator will stop and allow them on, unless it has been switched to "service" mode. "Service" mode requires a key, which I do not have access to without the superintendent. If the person getting on the elevator after me happens to be someone unprepared, willing to take what they see as neatly packaged food/water/gear on the elevator, they have you cornered and in a bad spot.

2) Depending on the scenario you need to bug out from, power reliability could be questionable. Being stuck in an elevator, while emergency services are already being stretched thin does not sound like a good way to bug out.

Second option I have, is the staircases. One at each end of my building, roughly 50 flights of 7 stairs a piece (equals about 350 stairs) plus landings, I believe the staircases to the parking garage are closer to 10-12 steps/flight, but we'll stick with the round number.

There are dangers with the stairwells as well, namely;

1) Weight per trip is limited to what you can carry, unless you have a buggy which is capable of navigating stairs and fairly tight corners.

2) If you're carrying everything, and climbing back upstairs, You'll be exhausted after your third to fifth trip at best. Bugging out while exhausted leads to poor decisions, and we all know how those movies end.

3) You're still in tight quarters where a person could corner you and try to take your gear by force.

4) The stairwells in my building have no windows, electricity failure is again a risk, but not as strong a risk as in the elevators.

5) I live in a building that isn't cared for by the occupants. People smoke in the stairwells, especially in the winter. It isn't uncommon to see puddles of beverage and/or urine in the stairwells, and this is while times are good. If people have been forced to live without services at all, the stairwell could quickly become a place to discard of trash, as well as relieving ones self without proper plumbing.

Options I see myself left with;
If one was on the lower floors, it could probably be arranged to throw things from the balcony, and load them onto the truck that way, but from the top floor, maybe your clothing would survive the drop, water filters, electronics, tools and gear, probably would not.

Best option then, seems to be stairwell, but still high risk. ways to mitigate the risks would include;

Large packs/buggy to limit the number of trips required.
If possible, navigate the stairwells with at least one other person, people in numbers reduces odds of being overpowered.
Redundancy in hands free lighting, headlamp, shoulder clip, weapon mounted, all options to keep light ahead or behind you while your hands are busy dealing with other things.

So ZS, am I overlooking an option for a delayed bug out from a high rise? Is there a threat/advantage I have not taken note of for any options?

[billyism]

If you're in a high rise and decide after a week or whatever without power to bug out... that's the question in a nutshell, right?

1. You're in a high rise dwelling... meaning big city. Why would you think you could bug-in in a big city?
2. Your in a high rise, meaning a long way from the ground...
3. Your access to your vehicle is under ground...

I could go on, but look... the reason for prepping is so you DON'T get stuck in these situations in the first place.

The best I can advise is get a really long rope if you won't actually prepare.

The next best thing is to rent a storage place OUTSIDE the big city to store all your shit if you don't have a place to bug out to. If a week or more has passed and you're just then thinking of bugging out with a vehicle full of food and whatever else, the people/government/zombies still in that city won't let you leave with your stuff. Your best bet would be to have essentials in a backpack, move at night as fast as you can using least likely traveled routes. Maybe, just maybe, you'll get out and still be alive.

You have to make the choice ahead of time. That's what preparing is for. You should already be living outside the big city. We all know this is coming, that's why we prepare... Unless it's some fantasy game ya'll play. If you know it's coming, then live like you know it's coming and stop figuring out ways to live on both sides of the fence.

[BullOnParade]

If you're in a high rise and decide after a week or whatever without power to bug out... that's the question in a nutshell, right?

1. You're in a high rise dwelling... meaning big city. Why would you think you could bug-in in a big city?
2. Your in a high rise, meaning a long way from the ground...
3. Your access to your vehicle is under ground...

I could go on, but look... the reason for prepping is so you DON'T get stuck in these situations in the first place.

The best I can advise is get a really long rope if you won't actually prepare.

The next best thing is to rent a storage place OUTSIDE the big city to store all your shit if you don't have a place to bug out to. If a week or more has passed and you're just then thinking of bugging out with a vehicle full of food and whatever else, the people/government/zombies still in that city won't let you leave with your stuff. Your best bet would be to have essentials in a backpack, move at night as fast as you can using least likely traveled routes. Maybe, just maybe, you'll get out and still be alive.

You have to make the choice ahead of time. That's what preparing is for. You should already be living outside the big city. We all know this is coming, that's why we prepare... Unless it's some fantasy game ya'll play. If you know it's coming, then live like you know it's coming and stop figuring out ways to live on both sides of the fence.

Mmmmno.

There are reasons to live in the city, and the possibility of a disaster situation is not large enough to scare me away from the life I live.

There are reasons one may not be able to bug out ahead of, or immediately following a disaster, forcing you to stay in the city for a period of time. I prepare for these reasons, and many other ZSers (and the rest of the populace) are the same. A long rope is not the answer, while it would possibly get me to the ground, it would not get any more gear to the ground than my BOB.

None of us know anything is coming. We prepare for the possibility, but I am much more prepared for the day to day type disasters that would not end the world. For example a large blizzard closing roads and local businesses for a few days. Or an ice storm knocking out power mid winter.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Although cities scare the shit out of me, I'll try my hand at this.

1. What floor? Do you live alone, or do you have someone that you could swap shifts with (i.e. you take a load while Person 2 watches the car, and vice versa) The shift swap protect one of the weak points (the time your car spends sitting unprotected while you go back up an bring down the next load) as well as giving you visible increased security, and in turn a deterrent to those who might want your shit.

2. Where are you bugging out to (in general) and what precautions do you have to make sure you can egress the city safely?

[BullOnParade]

Although cities scare the shit out of me, I'll try my hand at this.

1. What floor? Do you live alone, or do you have someone that you could swap shifts with (i.e. you take a load while Person 2 watches the car, and vice versa) The shift swap protect one of the weak points (the time your car spends sitting unprotected while you go back up an bring down the next load) as well as giving you visible increased security, and in turn a deterrent to those who might want your shit.

2. Where are you bugging out to (in general) and what precautions do you have to make sure you can egress the city safely?

I live at the top of the building, alone. Though the possibility of one or two people coming here in a SHTF scenario is likely. My BOL is my parents house, roughly an hour and a half away from my residence. The trip is easier as I live on the edge of the city, meaning my drive would be through mostly suburbs, and plenty of alternative routes beyond the main highway. I also have access to firearms, something the average Canadian does not have, but the number of illegal firearms in my neighbourhood can not be estimated.

[rsnurkle]

This question is making me think about stairwell navigation in general--I'm in just enough multi-story buildings each day for this to be a good question about work-environment evacuation.

As for transporting stuff: I'd actually think seriously about the storage locker idea billyism mentioned. I'm not going to suggest never living in the city (I just moved to a 2 million person metropolis, bring on the zombipocalypse! J/k, universe, j/k...), but the main weakness of your current plan/question to me, is the multiple trips loaded down with possibly heavy or awkward gear. Regardless of whether the trip is via elevator or stairs. How much gear is actually necessary, and how many trips will that take? (From the living alone in your apartment perspective, yeah, I understand, when you're moving things without help, shit adds up unbelievably.)

If you have a storage spot and your Get-to-storage-locker-bag or you determine you can get your essential gear down to the car in one or two loads, then you have a lot more flexibility to deal with the situational factors you've set up here:

• if this is a delayed bugout, you know the stairwell might be in terrible condition for travel (poo making the steps and landings slippery, twitchy homeless people sleeping on levels two and three) and the elevator may also be in bad mechanical condition--let alone any ne'er-do-wells who get on with you. Meaning, the less time you spend using either route, and the less stressed and distracted you are by a big unwieldy load of stuff, the better.
• if this is a delayed bugout, and you are leaving when you can't bug-in any longer, other people less-prepared may have reached the point where your supplies are very attractive, and worst case you become a moving pinata. Sparking your original concern about unwanted friends on the elevator.
• if this is a serious problem of some sort (disease, civil unrest, zombies) in addition to your significant population of resource-deprived neighbors (either as deprived as yourself, or more), you have whatever danger factor forced you to bug-in in the first place, meaning when you get down to your car and out of the apartment complex, like Doc Torr said, you may also be dealing with that additional factor while getting out of the city (so again, the less stress and distraction from your gear, the better).

So, from that perspective, cutting down on the stuff you need to transport to your car (whether through keeping some gear in your car all the time, having less gear, having a storage place you can drop by on your way out of the city, or some other good idea I'm overlooking) sounds like the best idea to me.


And alright, we'll try this angle, part two, the Hypothetical Piano Scenario: There's no way around it, you have to take the baby grand. Or the Stradivarius, or the five-month old infant, or your kindly, but aging neighbor. Or all of them, plus your BOB/INCH and their backpack of snacks. What makes sense?

First, make sure everything is as easily transportable as you can make it. When I was moving by driving to the city (instead of flying and shipping, like I did throughout college) my sister suggested bags over boxes. This meant all of my clothes got loaded into my 65L framed backpack, and I could walk it all up the stairs pretty easily, as well as the use one hand/arm for the cot, and have the other free for opening door or brandishing my Utilikey in self-defense of the neighbor's attack cat. The awesome part of bags with straps and backpacks is the ability to free up your arms, and keep you more flexibly mobile, as you're not constantly trying to hold/monitor your grip on a box. So, I would definitely look into figuring out how to backpack/bag as much as possible*, so the multiple treks turn into a lot of hiking with your backpack on, and maybe one hand occupied (or two hands occupied only if by an easily dropped item so you can deal with defense issues as quickly and smoothly as possible), instead of half of your kitchen sitting on the floor of the elevator when someone else gets on and says, wow, that's a really nice microwave, mind if I help you take it out of here, since you'll need both hands for that mop bucket and the mini fridge you've got... (not saying you'll be bringing these things, but for example).

As for actually dealing with transporting your elderly neighbor via the stairs/elevator, the choice to make is probably whether to move them first (so that if you get attacked on the way down, you have a shot at accomplishing your goal without the moral dilemma of leaving them behind,) or last (so that if you get attacked on the way down, you ditch some stuff, and retreat back to your bug-in location, having not exposed them to the danger). Either way bad things could happen, and you still stand a chance of losing your stuff, the longer you expose yourself to what you've identified as the primary danger in the bugout part of your delayed bugout scenario (building residents, legal or otherwise, who will try to take your possessions by force). And if your precious cargo is the infant you've heroically adopted in time of crisis (you know how those movies end--if you're the primarily caregive of a child who cannot walk, you make it to freedom with some superficial but badass-looking injuries and the kid lives happily ever after), then leaving them alone in a dangerous situation sounds like a crappy idea, and suggests you may still need to go the minimal gear route, to make sure you're staying with the little one.

* My hope, for my next move, is to get a bunch of things in sturdy bags, so that I take one bag, drop it into the backpack, do the stairs trip, pull the bag out of the backpack, place it in the vehicle, and head back with up an empty back to repeat, thus maximizing the use of an internal frame that fits me and distributes weight well. This will take ahead of time planning, and I'm not terribly sure the vaccuum will fit in a bag that fits into the backpack ;], but it's an idea.

Again, continuing with the "I have to do this because [reason X] here." From a multiple trips perspective, I'd choose the quieter route (elevator or stairs, your choice based on reading the situation) for going down (burdened by a load), and if doing so is possible/won't endanger you, take the elevator back up so you get a chance to rest between hauls. Basically, just make it as easy on yourself as possible.

For ahead of time preparation--do you know the building layout well enough to improvise if you know a stairwell has been claimed by vagrants, or your spidey sense tells you to get off on this floor, whatever it is when someone gets on the elevator?

From an avoid the stairs/elevator perspective, dropping stuff from the top story window of a 22-story building sounds like a bad idea, unless you package military supply drops for a living. Lower it down with a rope would be better, assuming a) you have a rope that long, and b) you have a good lowering system that does not put you at risk for accidentally going out the window with your stuff (unless, you rappel for a living and are following it intentionally, in which case, don't let me stand in your way). Besides the actual-mechanics, and personal safety issue, I'd be worried about more people noticing your stuff's egress, and of there being a longer period of time where your stuff is unattended, and easily stolen before you can get down to it, and then take it into the parking lot. At least the stairs and elevators give you visual cover for what you're transporting, besides anyone in the those areas with you.

Finally, all of this becomes easier if you have a friend who can help discourage lone predators in the elevator/stairwell, cut down on the number of trips you have to make, and guard the car in the lot if things look suspicious down there. To deal with this problem, building a friendship with someone who will help is probably the most effective contingency plan to cultivate (yes, definitely in addition to exercise, and a few test runs). I wouldn't get down on the world if you don't have someone available that you trust, but if you get the opportunity to work on this, go for it. Skills and friends, some of the best gear to have in an emergency.

[crypto]

Do your windows open? Can you make them open if the building suffers a long-term power loss and you need fresh air?

If you can get your windows open, you can easily rappel to the ground, and you can simply lower a duffel bag or two with your gear on it ahead of you. Heavy bags on the ground anchored to the end of your rope will serve as an expedient belay as well, assisting your decent.

ETA: this would obviously be a one-way trip, for a dire emergency. If you have the option, by all means go down the stairwell in a group, preferably with a dolly or a litter full of stuff to make it easier.

People *will* start shitting in the stairwells as soon as the toilets stop working, you can rest assured of that.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Do your windows open? Can you make them open if the building suffers a long-term power loss and you need fresh air?

If you can get your windows open, you can easily rappel to the ground, and you can simply lower a duffel bag or two with your gear on it ahead of you. Heavy bags on the ground anchored to the end of your rope will serve as an expedient belay as well, assisting your decent.

ETA: this would obviously be a one-way trip, for a dire emergency. If you have the option, by all means go down the stairwell in a group, preferably with a dolly or a litter full of stuff to make it easier.

People *will* start shitting in the stairwells as soon as the toilets stop working, you can rest assured of that.

Truth. Learn to rock a Swiss seat, and the lessons will cost more than the gear. Learn to do it upside down while shooting, and you'll be recruited by all the non-existant black ops agencies immediately.

[rsnurkle]

Learn to do it upside down while shooting, and you'll be recruited by all the non-existant black ops agencies immediately.

Even if I'm a girl? Because that's kind of a tempting hobby to pick up...

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Learn to do it upside down while shooting, and you'll be recruited by all the non-existant black ops agencies immediately.

Even if I'm a girl? Because that's kind of a tempting hobby to pick up...

Especially if you're a girl. Skilled, spunky but undervalued female heroines are getting hard to find for those A-teams. I mean, six, seven ops, and you're a skilled, valued asset, and all the drama is gone.

In all seriousness (sans shooting/upsidedowning) I've only ever used a Swiss seat 10(?) feet of rope and two carabiners) to rappel. I love it. I've done it with a full sustained load (flak, kevlar, weapon(s) full ILBE) and had few problems. Fun hobby.

[Turtlewolf]

Although cities scare the shit out of me, I'll try my hand at this.

1. What floor? Do you live alone, or do you have someone that you could swap shifts with (i.e. you take a load while Person 2 watches the car, and vice versa) The shift swap protect one of the weak points (the time your car spends sitting unprotected while you go back up an bring down the next load) as well as giving you visible increased security, and in turn a deterrent to those who might want your shit.

2. Where are you bugging out to (in general) and what precautions do you have to make sure you can egress the city safely?

I live at the top of the building, alone. Though the possibility of one or two people coming here in a SHTF scenario is likely. My BOL is my parents house, roughly an hour and a half away from my residence. The trip is easier as I live on the edge of the city, meaning my drive would be through mostly suburbs, and plenty of alternative routes beyond the main highway. I also have access to firearms, something the average Canadian does not have, but the number of illegal firearms in my neighbourhood can not be estimated.

Most Canadians I know own fireamrs legaly and almost all Canadians have access to them so I'm not sure where you got your information.
I say keep a good bag with you for a week stay and leave the brunt of your stuff at your parents place.
Then all you have to move is your immediate gear and you can bug out at any point during the week at your liesure.
cheers

[crypto]

I bought an alpine harness from REI a few years ago to use for rappelling, it was some Black Diamond thing that was like $40.

It's great, and dumb-proof, so you cant forget how to tie it. It's probably been 10 years since I tied a swiss seat, I wouldnt trust myself to do it right without instructions at this point.


Either way though, if you live in a built-up area, keeping static rope and climbing/decending gear on hand is a wise move. My BOB has my harness, a figure-8, some carabiners, and 200 feet of line in it not because I think I'm a bad-ass, but because a rope and harness is the safest and fastest way to negotiate many urban terrain features.

[Piggpen75]

People use haul bags to get hundreds of pounds of gear up big walls like El Capitan. I would look into a two rope set yo where you run a rapelle line and haul line to get everything down. You could do that in one haul with no worries. Pullies are your friend.

[crypto]

You can make a pulley system with a couple carabiners too, to avoid carrying around a block and tackle with you. Google that shit!

[rsnurkle]

Especially if you're a girl. Skilled, spunky but undervalued female heroines are getting hard to find for those A-teams. I mean, six, seven ops, and you're a skilled, valued asset, and all the drama is gone.

In all seriousness (sans shooting/upsidedowning) I've only ever used a Swiss seat 10(?) feet of rope and two carabiners) to rappel. I love it. I've done it with a full sustained load (flak, kevlar, weapon(s) full ILBE) and had few problems. Fun hobby.

I knew that one day I would discover my dream gig on the internet, I just knew it! Besides, when I become properly valued, I can develop into the unexpectedly humorous team member that delights audiences with one witty line every episode so the viewers don't get too bored with the token female and the producers won't axe my character in favor of introducing another to reignite the drama.

You can make a pulley system with a couple carabiners too, to avoid carrying around a block and tackle with you. Google that shit!

Alright, rappeling folks: what is the best way for one to go able acquiring rappelling skills for building descent in a safe and effective manner, if one is not in a black ops-style training program? Is google a viable place to start?

And short of seeing your archnemesis standing outside with a rifle, when would rappelling still be a bad idea for the OP?

[BullOnParade]

I couldn't see myself belaying gear and myself down 20 stories. Perhaps I made it sound like I wanted to pack along the whole apartment, but I was mostly thinking my BOB, INCH, a few firearms, and maybe a Rubbermaid tote of food (all prepacked). I just wanted to see what people thought on the subject. In all reality, if I were in a bug out situation, stepping in shit in the stairwell is the least of my problems ... Unless I slipped, then it becomes a bigger problem. Here again, multiple hands free lighting options will be the best defense ... maybe a pair of rubber boots are in order.

[rsnurkle]

I couldn't see myself belaying gear and myself down 20 stories. Perhaps I made it sound like I wanted to pack along the whole apartment, but I was mostly thinking my BOB, INCH, a few firearms, and maybe a Rubbermaid tote of food (all prepacked). I just wanted to see what people thought on the subject. In all reality, if I were in a bug out situation, stepping in shit in the stairwell is the least of my problems ... Unless I slipped, then it becomes a bigger problem. Here again, multiple hands free lighting options will be the best defense ... maybe a pair of rubber boots are in order.

I probably made it a bigger issue by thinking about it too much. In that case, if you have two bags, and two unwieldy items (the firearms, and food tote) and the elevator is working, I'd take a first trip wearing the INCH and any of the firearms you wouldn't have in a ready to fire state (using a bag of some sort), down elevator or stairs, your choice.

Then the next trip would be via elevator, wearing the BOB, open carrying at least one of the remaining firearms (unless there's some reason not to announce that you are armed), and a piece of rope to drag the tote so you always have one hand free for weapon access. Ideally, if you can find some sort of rolling platform, you can secure the tote to that, and then roll it into the elevator and roll it out to the truck without having to pick it up and occupy both hands for more than a few secures. If the firearms could be secured to the rolling tote, I might transport those in the BOB+tote trip, too, so you don't have to leave them unattended in the truck (depending on how tenuous the situation feels. Tricky part might be if the roller if noisy, you may just want to pick up the tote and risky twenty seconds of both hands occupied versus twenty seconds of noisy rolling on concrete.

/end armchair commando-ing

[BullOnParade]

...
/end armchair commando-ing

That's all this thread is for, see who has the comfiest armchair. It's a hypothetical scenario that I hadn't seen brought up by urban preppers, and I wanted to see what ideas people would have.

[Winston Smith]

I'm working on rigging a bar to be held across a window by pressure, and tying heavy rope to it to repel 30 feet from my apt to ground level

[GunTotingHippy]

One thing that hasn't been considered yet is the likelihood of the BOV being compromised before you make it down to it.

If you're holed-up in your apartment for a week or two, or longer, that's a long time for your vehicle to be unattended. I've known folks whose cars were broken into after only a few hours of being left in a "secure" parking deck, during a regular, non-PAW weekday. so there's a better than average chance that, post-unnamed catastrophe, your vehicle might not be there, or may be missing vital parts for it to function (tires/wheels, engine, fuel, etc). Same goes for any peeps you may have stored in there.

Just thouht I'd throw that out there.

[crypto]

Alright, rappeling folks: what is the best way for one to go able acquiring rappelling skills for building descent in a safe and effective manner, if one is not in a black ops-style training program? Is google a viable place to start?

And short of seeing your archnemesis standing outside with a rifle, when would rappelling still be a bad idea for the OP?

A climbing gym, or somewhere with a fake rock wall is a good start. If not, google and youtube are a poor substitute, but can show you the basics.

Learning from someone who knows what they're doing is invaluable. I learned at a state park when I was in high school, so when I did it again in ROTC it was cake. Since then, Ive played a climbing gyms and off a few buildings.

Well, I mean, lets be fair, rappelling will always be more fun than running down 22 flights of stairs, but the stairs will generally be safer unless you have a reason not to use them.

Also, I did see the OP state that his car is 2 levels deep underground in a parking structure, so if he rappelled out hed still have to get to the car.

[Pineslayer]

Glad I don't have to think about your potential problem. Rappelling gear would be a last resort, but if a fire or zombie horde storms your door... To keep stairway crapping neighbors from wanting to take your stuff as your leave, 2 wheeler with a trash can tied to it. When someone asks what it is, answer with trash and human waste, they should give you a wide berth. A large military duffel bag with shoulder straps makes a great hauler, short term, and doesn't look expensive. I use them when I travel to put my expensive stuff in. Good luck if TSHTF.

As far as guns in The Great White North, what are some of the general laws? I hear many different things and don't know what to believe. Thanks

[Mall Ninja]

I think you can simplify the problem by considering a worst case scenario, say, a fire in the building. The elevators are going to be out, the stairwells are going to be filled with your neighbors and even if you wanted to make a trip back up the stairs you probably wouldn't be able to, so the only thing you can count on having is what you can carry down a possibly dark/crowded/smoke filled stairway in one trip and if you think you're going to need more than whats in you BOB or INCH you better have it cached somewhere else.

At least thats the conclusion I came to after a fire alarm recently in my building. (and your BOB needs to be ready to go right now! not 5 minutes from now)

[nes999]

Does the stair well have railings? Tie a rope to your bags and lowwer them down. Use the railing to help slow down the lowwering if it weighs to much. Then run down the stairs. itll be much fast since youll have no added weight to your body.