CCW & Vigilante T-Shirts?

[Spartan299]

Or my personal favorite:

[Sever]

I got to thinking yesterday as I got dressed. In honor of the day, I was wearing a green Boondock Saints t-shirt.

It occurred to me that having to use my CCW while wearing a shirt celebrating a movie about vigilantes could cause some problems.

It also seems I could have the same problems with my shirt with the Punisher skull, or even the Batman Symbol.

I personally don't think it would cause damage by itself, but I believe it could be the "Straw that Broke the Camel's Back" in certain situations, particularly in civil cases.

For instance if I shoot and kill a teen mugger in a dark street, and it turns out the gun was a black painted airsoft or something. I could see a lawyer try to paint me as a wannabe just praying for the chance to emulate my heros and kill a criminal.

So am I thinking too much into this, or is it a possiblity to be aware of?

And I won't stop wearing the shirts, nor do I intend to not carry if I do wear one. I mean, I always feel a tiny bit sacrilegious strapping on a gun when wearing the Batman shirt, but that doesn't stop me doing so.

I think your right..it's sad you can't wear what you want to wear but...we live in times where shit like this can/will come up. That said...I wear whatever I want..and carry everyday.

[AmirMortal]

It's one of my favorites.

Wow, that's about the most damning shirt I can think of in a civil suit.

SMoAF, I'm curious, what do you carry on your person?

[SMoAF]

SMoAF, I'm curious, what do you carry on your person?

Depends on my mood. First off, you need to understand my personal philosophy. If I need to draw my weapon, I have two possible scenarios in mind: One attacker at close range, or multiple attackers at different ranges. For a 1 attacker scenario, the goal is to shoot to stop if possible while unassing the area. For a multiple shooter scenario, the goal is to run like hell while putting out some fire that might keep their heads down. In other words: in any bad situation, I'm going to do my best to run like hell. If I can break contact, that's a win in my book. That being said, absolute minimum: Glock 19 with 114 rounds total in mags. Not abnormal: Supressed Glock 21, various number of mags. Feeling a bit paranoid: Serbu Super Shorty 870 in 12 gauge. Feeling REALLY paranoid? I'd rather not say, but it should be enough to get me to my car unless I'm put down before I know there's a problem.



Oh, and BTW: This is for guns actually ON my person. What's in my car is an entirely different matter, since the car guns don't have the weight restrictions the ones on my my person have.

[Liff]

Iirc, the 10mm that Harold Fish carried was a big deal in his court room. Clearly his lawyer sucked because the response of "bears" didn't get said much, again, if I recall correctly.

If this is your normal, everyday wear style of shirt, I can not see a problem. Your colset will be full of similar or like shirts. If you have one shirt like this in your entire wardrobe, maybe. But then again not really.

[steppenwolf]

Iirc, the 10mm that Harold Fish carried was a big deal in his court room. Clearly his lawyer sucked because the response of "bears" didn't get said much, again, if I recall correctly.
***

I'm familiar with this case, the defendant was Fish who killed a guy with his 10mm pistol, allegedly in SD.

Under the law existing at that time, and probably also because Fish's defense attorney (a) sucked, (b) was unsavvy about firearms and their defensive uses, (c) failed to employ experts at trial who were (like Mas Ayoob) or (d) all of these, ... the prosecutor got away with making certain things an issue in the jury's mind - such as the specific caliber used - that a judge today most likely would not allow in determining whether Fish acted in lawful SD, given some of the legal changes since the trial.

Today, in most "Shall-Issue" CCW states, additional protections have been enacted by state legislatures to protect law-abiding/CCW citizens when they are forced to use lethal force in SD - such as "Castle" statutes and similar laws. Some confusing and archaic doctrines, like having a "duty to retreat" inside your home before using lethal force, have been eliminated.

Some of these statutes also specifically define the legal parameters of what constitutes the lawful use of deadly force and thereby restrict or limit what the jury may consider in determing the matter (if it even gets that far).

Since the Fish case, I haven't seen one instance where the caliber of the good guy's (the shooter's) handgun, or the particular cartridge used, was deemed to be a relevant factor in assessing whether it was a "good shoot" or "bad shoot." (Even at the time of Fish's case, his attorney could have brought out the fact that the 10mm cartridge wasn't some kind of horrifically-deadly alien caliber, but was a recognized "service cartridge" and had been used by numerous police departments and LEAs, like the FBI and Kentucky State Police ).

If the good guy was justified under the circumstances in exercising deadly force to defend himself, his family and, in some states, where he came to the aid of a 3rd party (e.g., a rape in progress in an alley), then that's as far as the law will inquire.

In fact, in many states that have adopted Florida-style firearms statutes, if the circumstances reveal that a shooting fits the statutory criteria for a "good shoot," i.e., being within the rules for using deadly force (which is why it pays to know your state's SD law and know it cold), legal immunity protects the shooter from BOTH a criminal prosecution and a later civil suit (for "wrongful death") by the scum-bag's relatives for $$$.

Moreover, IIRC, it was Florida that started the trend of extending "Castle"-type protection beyond the home to (unless otherwise specifically restricted) any place where you have a right to be present, such as at your place of employment, your business, your car, walking down a public sidewalk, strolling in a public park, etc. As noted, govenment buildings like courthouses, and other places, are exceptions (specific locations vary from state law to state law).

[rburch]

Actually I'm 27. Still a fan of the character, and I don't have a problem showing it.

No offense meant, I just couldn't resist the urge to poke fun.

None taken, I poke fun at it myself.

[mr.trooper]

You can never bee 'too' paranoid. Especially when people are out to get you.

[Hammer31]

One of those shirts I find nothing bad about it, but you have to figure that some GDL will try to screw you if you have to shoot someone with one of those shirts on. I know my local prosecutor would try to hang you out to dry if there was a shooting and you were wearing ANYTHING the might have suggested that you wanted to shoot someone (camo anything, logo t-shirt with violent images, etc).

As an assistant county prosecutor, he tried to argue that a CCW in a holster made you a "cowboy looking to sling lead at the helpless victim". The judge smacked him down and the jury acquitted the shooter (43yo CCW holder mugged by 19yo thug with 15 convictions to his record at the time of his death).

Know your local conditions is all that I have to say.

[Stormrider]

One of those shirts I find nothing bad about it, but you have to figure that some GDL will try to screw you if you have to shoot someone with one of those shirts on. I know my local prosecutor would try to hang you out to dry if there was a shooting and you were wearing ANYTHING the might have suggested that you wanted to shoot someone (camo anything, logo t-shirt with violent images, etc).

As an assistant county prosecutor, he tried to argue that a CCW in a holster made you a "cowboy looking to sling lead at the helpless victim". The judge smacked him down and the jury acquitted the shooter (43yo CCW holder mugged by 19yo thug with 15 convictions to his record at the time of his death).

Know your local conditions is all that I have to say.

That's the thing. Some lawyers will use what kind of socks you were wearing at the time of the shooting to try to win a case, even one of clear self defense. Shirts with vigilante comic book charachters, gun logos, occult symbols, et al, are a lot less of an issue than your statement to the police and the attitude you have while giving it. Now wearing something like I posted that basically says 'I fukken <3 killing!' may be a different story. Or not. It really depends on how "the system" is on that kind of thing where you are.

[maine1]

Harold Fish was released I believe. The legislature in AZ realized the law was NFG, changed it, and the govenor declared it retroactive and granted him a pardon.

There was a lot about that case that was BS: The assialants history, the fact that he did in fact have a screwdriver in his pocket, the fact that he had sicced both his dogs on people and then robbed and beaten them. Fish rightly followed his instincts.

his lawyer was evidently a bit foolish, as he advised fish to take a deal.

[steppenwolf]

Harold Fish was released I believe. The legislature in AZ realized the law was NFG, changed it, and the govenor declared it retroactive and granted him a pardon.

There was a lot about that case that was BS: The assialants history, the fact that he did in fact have a screwdriver in his pocket, the fact that he had sicced both his dogs on people and then robbed and beaten them. Fish rightly followed his instincts.
his lawyer was evidently a bit foolish, as he advised fish to take a deal.

I agree.

Based on what I know about the case, Fish got hosed.

Let's say it again: know the law covering the use of deadly force in your jurisdiction - and know it cold.

By knowing it "cold," you'll more easily intergrate it into your SD training, tactics and protocols.

[jrswanson1]

You are in Virginia, you can't be sued.

Jim

[WhyNotFab]

This makes me worry about carrying my 'Zombie Slayer' model Ruger LCP

[praharin]

You are in Virginia, you can't be sued.

Jim

This is the sort of post where a quote would be appropriate. Who is from Virginia? Why did you wait 2 years to tell him?

[rburch]

You are in Virginia, you can't be sued.

Jim

This is the sort of post where a quote would be appropriate. Who is from Virginia? Why did you wait 2 years to tell him?

I assume he was talking to me because I'm the OP and I'm from Virginia.

No clue why he responded now though.

[chills1994]

on a different note, after seeing the Ohio pizza parlor beat down with the woman wearing some sort of camo looking clothing, my spidey sense gets all tingley when I see people out in public who are wearing camo who are obviously not in the military and not on the way to or from their treestand.

there was another video I saw where a perp or an accomplice was also wearing camo which makes me think there might be some Freudian subconscious mechanism working that leads them to pick camo clothing on that day.

there was an incident out in Cali about an engineer anal retentive neighbor next door to some liberal minded defense lawyer couple. This was on NBC's Dateline, IIRC. Uptight engineer sets a situation in motion where he is confronted by his defense lawyer neighbor. Engineer caps the lawyer, DRT. The prosecution then later on digs through the engineer's house and discovers some self-defense DVD. The prosecution then tried to have that admitted into evidence, probably implying that the engineer had the malice of forethought two months prior to prepare for a confrontation.

Long story short, anything and everything will be used against you, especially if the prosecutor can make political hay and advance his career out of your conviction. "Ah-a! I see you were a frequent contributor to the Zombie Hunters DOT org website's firearms sub forum. You obviously are a gun nut who feels that the world is out to get you."

Back when I was just an intern with the state police, IIRC, we had access to a Lexis Nexis database, which showed us what kind of property you had/have. Your main residence might be 123 Main Street, Boondocks, AL, but the database also shows you as owning a 3 year old F-250 King Ranch, a 1 year old Harley softail, a bass tracker boat, and some farmland in BFE Georgia. It was never explained to me why those searches were done, but I am assuming it was to discover if you have the financial means to hire your own lawyer and/or to possibly bond out.

[painiac]

The principles of justice would tell us that such items have little to no bearing on the actual facts of a case, and are so highly prejudicial that they need to be excluded from evidence (except in extreme circumstances). Even to the extent that if the prosecutor tries to slip them in under the radar, the jury should be dismissed and a mistrial declared. (As the saying goes, you can't unring a bell, so instructions for a jury to "disregard" something can't truly be carried out).

Practically speaking, though, this doesn't happen often enough. Like they said in Idiocracy, "Joe was about to learn that in the future justice was not only blind, but had become rather retarded as well."

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Just a thought: I'm not getting rid of any of my Deadpool, Batman, etc. T-shirts. If someone really thinks that I shot Jason Vorhees the Mugger because I think I'm a vigilante, let them try. In the meantime, it's my duty as a CCW to be able to clearly articulate why I drew my weapon ad used lethal force against a machete wielding maniac.

[JTNieman]

it's my duty as a CCW

What kind of CCW are you? Glock? HK? Ruger?

[Doctorr Fabulous]

it's my duty as a CCW

What kind of CCW are you? Glock? HK? Ruger?

s/CCW/armed citizen. But Glock. I run hard, I'm attractive to some but not to others, I can be accessorized, will likely have some parts replaced in the forseeable future, and though I have no slide or grip mounted safety, I won't go off in your hand unless you want me to.

[Grey Mann]

I run hard, I'm attractive to some but not to others, I can be accessorized, will likely have some parts replaced in the forseeable future, and though I have no slide or grip mounted safety, I won't go off in your hand unless you want me to.

I laughed so hard, I pooped a little.

[MasterMaker]

Low key, with the practicality of BDU's etc. without screaming rambo wannabee to those that might scream just that....

Work clothes.

The kind you see used in construction etc. have all the functionality(often more) of military/tactical garb, often come in black/subdued/dark colors(and not all of it looks like clothes one would only wear on a job site), is reasonably prized and very hard wearing.
(and while my ass is 90 pounds less lardy than it was about a year ago, I will add that many brands offer sizes above xxxl).