East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby stonecutter2 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:04 am

oldsoldier wrote:Honestly, camping equipment, used wisely, works best. There REALLY isnt a need to get expensive stuff-I have a car camping stove that could be used in a pinch. You just need to use it wisely, as in, WELL ventilated. Other than that, our temps drop down to the 20s at night, and the house gets to a cozy 50 or so-certainly not warm, by ANY means, but definitely easily survivable. I dont really see a need for alternate heat sources. But, I dont have children either, and people's comfort levels are different. A fireplace would be nice-heat, light, and cooking out of once source! But, we make due with what is at hand. Her parents, on the other hand, have a well, and its electrically operated-so, they are without power AND water. Even flush toilets. In THAT scenario, yes, I would certainly suggest a generator-but, for me, not really needed. I have been unplugged for a couple days, with the exception of being at work, and am liking it :)


I think a camping stove would be a great idea. Maybe even just one of those one burner deals. I always keep spare propane canisters around for lighting fires with (firepit and fireplace, i have a nozzle/lighter thing that attaches to the canister). Yeah, ventilation is really important! My guess is that I'd use it in the garage with the door cracked open for a fresh air source. My garage has open vents at the top, in the rafters, to circulate air. I've found that when i open the garage attic door hatch, the air circulates much better.

I do like your perspective on being unplugged - I too think that it would end up being rather peaceful! We're all so engrained in mindlessly watching TV or messing with computers these days, I love going out to some camping land and unplugging for a little while.

I researched some of the options for my fireplace, and i think the grates, although a good idea, have mixed reviews as far as effectiveness. Our fireplace already has an insert, as in it's not just an open hearth. There is a firebox with fire brick lined inside of it, so it actually produces a pretty good amount of heat when you really get it going. The rest of the house does cool off, though - but that just means camping in the living room and toasting some marshmallows :)
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby thelight » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:26 pm

My GF's parents and several friends were without power for a while. The GF's parents managed ok because they had some firewood behind the house a a few kerosine lanterns... See, when Irene blew through and knocked down a bunch of trees up there, I went up with the saw and cleaned up a lot of the debris for them. I suggested that they keep the wood so they can have a fire if they should ever need it. "Oh we don't worry about that. We've only ever lost power for a day before, two at the most, and we don't really do outdoor fires since the kids left the house." Well, they never got around to hauling all the wood out, and I left a few lamps there by accident. They're now asking us about prepping, and what kind of generator to look into. Converts +2.

My own experience with the storm was a great example of being stubborn and stupid. I needed to get up to my hunting camp to close up for the winter season (drain water, board windows, shutdown electric, etc). I had to get up that weekend because life had gotten in the way on all the previous ones where I had attempted to go and the weather was getting dangerously low for the water pipes. So on Saturday I started to head up and I heard that there was a snow storm on the way. I thought it was no big deal and didn't check the weather report. By the time I got to Westchester, there was so much snow, downed trees, and downed power cables around that I took one detour to another only to get detoured yet again. Trees were down on all the major roads, cars were stuck everywhere, three lane highways were down to one, and I hadn't added my winter kit to the car yet because "It's too early". Well, by the grace of Subaru (seriously, I love this car more than ever) I eventually made it to the cabin. What should have been a three hour trip ended up taking six. I made a few critical mistakes here, but thankfully the only thing damaged was my pride and a small pinhole in a tire which was easily repaired.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby manacheck » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:07 pm

We're up here in New Hampshire and getting dumped on is a real problem basically every year. While the snow is bad, we worry even more about ice freezing on top of the already weighted-down branches, roofs, power lines, etc. In my mind, the biggest issue with losing power here is that, while a few of us have wood burning stoves or backup generators for emergency heat, many more of us rely exclusively on electricity for our heat and don't really have any financially feasible backup plans in place. We're a tough bunch who can get by well enough for a few days or more without the local grocery stores being open, without water, the roads being closed, or simply being snowed in, but freezing in our boots is a pretty bad scenario. Last year taught me an awful lot about the importance of staying warm when it's cold out, from personally having run out of heating fuel halfway through the winter and not being able to afford to buy more. Not fun!

Simple things that I feel help tremendously are, first and foremost, staying dry and insulating your area as much as possible. If you have a small room with no or few windows, insulating it as best as you can and keeping the door closed will help your body heat do its best to keep the temperature livable, if only in a section of your home. Don't use candles, open flame of any sort, or your oven to try to heat your home with. (Not only is it a fire hazard but it can be a danger because of carbon monoxide.)

Secondly, wear multiple layers of clothing. The air space between layers is a great insulator and helps keep you warm.

Thirdly, try not to eat or drink anything that is very cold, as the cold will lower your core temperature and make it more difficult to keep your body heat stable. Make sure you are not wearing too many layers, or wearing layers too tightly. If you start to sweat, your body temperature can drop drastically due to the amazingly effective ability your body moisture has at conducting heat away from your body. If you start feeling the beginning of sweat forming, take a layer of clothing off. More people freeze after sweating than do from being slightly chillier while bodily dry. Take it slow and easy.

Whenever possible, wear a hat and scarf, even while inside, and especially while sleeping, as we lose a lot of our body heat through our heads. If you have a lot of metal facial or ear piercings, remove them. They will freeze inside your skin and make it more likely you will get frostbite on those places. The metal will also conduct heat away from your body just in general.

If the air outside is very cold, there may be a danger of your pipes freezing. A few ways this can be helped are by putting pipe insulation on them, by using heating tape, or by letting your faucets "drip". If the heating tape is electric, however, and there is no power, it won't be very helpful. Letting your faucets drip is also a waste of water, and can really add up if you do it continuously, in your water bill. However, continuously running water can melt ice as effectively as it can defrost a frozen solid steak. It will also help relieve pressure from the expansion of the water when it freezes in a pipe. In my opinion, if it keeps your pipes from bursting, it's absolutely worth trying. When the temperatures get way below freezing here, we let the faucets drip, period. There are basically no downsides to pipe insulation, except that you will have to put the effort into fitting them correctly on the pipes. It is also important, if you can, to make sure condensation does not form and remain on your pipes, as this can also be a problem in conjunction with below freezing temperatures. This happens most often in our bathroom, after we take showers.

Beyond that, there are a few common enough tricks I think are fantastic in regards to warming up in the winter. One of my favourites is to throw a few handfuls of rice into an old sock and microwave it for a minute, then either use it as a handwarmer, footwarmer, neck warmer, or toss it under the covers to ease the frozen sheets. I have heard of people using a brick heated in the oven or fireplace, and putting it at the foot of the bed to keep them warmed up at night. Commercially sold chemical handwarmers are good in the same way, and can help un-stiffen fingers when the temperatures are too cold, and most importantly don't require microwaving or electricity for heating.

In regards to fabric, fleece, cotton, and wool are best for insulation and keeping temperatures steady. Feathers/down material/blankets/jackets/etc are just wonderful for keeping warm. Silk and polyester, in my experience, are terrible at keeping heat in. Newspaper is awesome as an emergency insulator, you can sleep with it right on top of you, or sandwiched in between blankets, or stuffed inside a jacket. It might crinkle during the night, but if it lets you stay warm, it's well worth sacrificing last night's newspaper for.

I'd be extremely interested to hear other tricks people use to stay warm and try to keep their homes warm, when there is no power to be had. In my case, budget is #1, and I imagine during "this economy" a lot of people are feeling the financial crunch the same as I.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby Woods Walker » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:58 am

TacAir wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:My town said 90% out and expect TWO WEEKS without power. I got run out of the woods as well during a campout. My truck and generator will not work for some unknown reason so called my parents to drive my 5 year-old nephew to their house which has power. The temps will be in the 20's tonight. If for some reason my parents couldn't come (which they did as I am using their computer) I could have setup my heated tipi. I have some video of me getting run out of the woods by falling trees in the Autumn bug out contest which is a global sticky on top. Not a disaster but needed the chain saw to get to the road. Then again I haven't heard of such long power outages even including the last storm for at least 30 years.


Is this a 'leftover' issue set form the hurricane damage from this last summer? IOW, the power company did some lash-up fixes this summer counting on more time to make permanent repairs?


Too many green leaves on the trees. All the leaves should be off or dried up depending on species but looking out the window I can still see some green and its 11/4. These leaves are too heavy when covered with sticky wet snow. Also lots of towns in New England aren't cutting back trees around powerlines like they once did. Still no power.....

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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby Hoppy » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:49 am

6 days, roughly 3 hours, we have grid power

obv we had plenty of propane grills and stoves, generators, inverters,deep cycle batteries, electric heaters, lamps and batts, a TV and a Digital TV antenna to stay in the loop :mrgreen:
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby zombiebob » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:32 am

Ok the big halloween snowstorm is over now but I have something to add to the discussion. On october 12th this guy here: halloween snowstorm in New York predicted the halloween snowstorm, as we all know he got this freak event absolutely right. He also has a prediction about snow in San Francisco for Cristmas here: Snow in San Francisco this Christmas should we be preparing for that. New York is used to snow so if it comes at a weird time of year they can handle it, but San Francisco? What will happen?
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby RAYJAY » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:02 am

ok we live on 10 acres of land in the country NEPA , we have a well water, gas and coal heat hot tub is our back up water supply for grey water app. 500 gallons and we use the generator to run the well, heat some lights and one TV all of our stoves in house are gas we did lose power during one of the summer storms for 6 days

we are going to upgrade our generator to a larger size ( can't run the well and everything else at the same time, going to also install some more plugs for the generator in the upstairs
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby phil_in_cs » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:16 am

zombiebob wrote:Ok the big halloween snowstorm is over now but I have something to add to the discussion. On october 12th this guy here: halloween snowstorm in New York predicted the halloween snowstorm, as we all know he got this freak event absolutely right. He also has a prediction about snow in San Francisco for Cristmas here: Snow in San Francisco this Cristmas should we be preparing for that. New York is used to snow so if it comes at a weird time of year they can handle it, but San Francisco? What will happen?


psychics predict 10,000 things, and when one happens they ignore the 9,999 and harp on the one. They've been doing that at least since Sumeria and the Pharaohs, and likely before that in unrecorded time.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby RickOShea » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:42 am

Woods Walker wrote: Also lots of towns in New England aren't cutting back trees around powerlines like they once did. Still no power.....

Right-of-way (tree-trimming) programs are some of the costliest expenses for power line maintenance. Most utilities don't even have "in house" R.O.W. crews any more. Most of them use contractors.

And even then, instead of a 3 year program, they try to get away with only trimming the trees every 5-6 years.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby phil_in_cs » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:48 am

RickOShea wrote:
Woods Walker wrote: Also lots of towns in New England aren't cutting back trees around powerlines like they once did. Still no power.....

Right-of-way (tree-trimming) programs are some of the costliest expenses for power line maintenance. Most utilities don't even have "in house" R.O.W. crews any more. Most of them use contractors.

And even then, instead of a 3 year program, they try to get away with only trimming the trees every 5-6 years.


They generate a lot of resistance and grief too - no one wants the trees trimmed around their house. At least, until snow or wind breaks the power lines, and then they complain about the power company not trimming in a timely manner .
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby majorhavoc » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:49 am

RickOShea wrote:
Woods Walker wrote: Also lots of towns in New England aren't cutting back trees around powerlines like they once did. Still no power.....

Right-of-way (tree-trimming) programs are some of the costliest expenses for power line maintenance. Most utilities don't even have "in house" R.O.W. crews any more. Most of them use contractors.

And even then, instead of a 3 year program, they try to get away with only trimming the trees every 5-6 years.



I wonder what the cost/benefit analysis would look like if the cost savings of switching from the 3 to the 5 year cycle were compared to the increased costs in responding to an "all hands on deck" event like this past storm.

"Penny wise and pound foolish" springs to mind.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby Pilsung » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:31 am

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... 4-19-00-14

Fury in CT after six days with no power. This experience should be an "a-ha!" moment for hundreds of thousands who made little or no preparations for such an extended outage.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby RickOShea » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:55 am

phil_in_cs wrote:They generate a lot of resistance and grief too - no one wants the trees trimmed around their house. At least, until snow or wind breaks the power lines, and then they complain about the power company not trimming in a timely manner .

Yeah, we have "in house" R.O.W. crews that mostly work in the high-density residential and business areas. They can spend more time "shaping" the trees so they don't look quite as bad after being trimmed.

We have some contract crews, too. They work in the more rural areas of our service territories where they "shit-&-git" with big Kershaw Klippers and Tree Tiger machines. Most of the "rural" folks don't care what the R.O.W. looks like. Especially the farmers. They just want reliable power for their irrigation systems and corn dryers when they need it.

Also, if you look at forest land by percentage, the Northeastern and Southeastern states tend to have the most trees. So the folks up North get hammered by blizzards and ice storms, while down here we catch it from the hurricanes.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby RickOShea » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:00 pm

majorhavoc wrote:I wonder what the cost/benefit analysis would look like if the cost savings of switching from the 3 to the 5 year cycle were compared to the increased costs in responding to an "all hands on deck" event like this past storm.

"Penny wise and pound foolish" springs to mind.

Well.....I should think that most of them figure that if they can handle the "minor" disasters, FEMA will come along and pay for most, if not all of the cost of a "major" natural disaster.

So in the long run, the cost savings may be worth the risk. :|
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby Dawgboy » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:58 pm

ROW trimming has become big business in California due to several fires caused by trees falling on power lines. We had a bad one in San Diego in 2003 called the "witch fire", that eventually burn 2/3s of the Back country in San Diego county and caused more than a couple deaths, including part of a fire crew.

Back to the subject, It's not snow I am fearing here, but earthquakes, in which I would lose both water and power for extended time. I have 220 watts of solar, and a 2KW genny, so power is not really an issue for me, but water is another story, and you can never have enough. Broke into today in fact as the main line to the house was leaking and I got shutdown without notice today. My front yard is now trenches and mud everywhere, but I can haz water because I prepped...
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby Hoppy » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:41 pm

something im im happy to see round here, fire wood is being cut up in lengths and orderly stacked on the side of the road separate of the shredder brush. and yes the truck and trailers are out in force :mrgreen:
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby m ellis allen » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:04 pm

Hoppy wrote:something im im happy to see round here, fire wood is being cut up in lengths and orderly stacked on the side of the road separate of the shredder brush. and yes the truck and trailers are out in force :mrgreen:

is it open for the public to take? around here the companies that are subcontracted to clear lines/right of ways take all good wood and later sell it for firewood and chip up the brush and take that too. sometimes home owners are smart enuff to "make it disappear" while the crews are on lunchbreak eating lunch that they "somehow got for free" :wink:
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby mariposa » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:26 pm

RickOShea wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:They generate a lot of resistance and grief too - no one wants the trees trimmed around their house. At least, until snow or wind breaks the power lines, and then they complain about the power company not trimming in a timely manner .

Yeah, we have "in house" R.O.W. crews that mostly work in the high-density residential and business areas. They can spend more time "shaping" the trees so they don't look quite as bad after being trimmed.


The ROW crews here don't even try to shape the trees. They trim what is directly under the power lines and leave. We've got a good amount of lopsided trees in my area. I think ours are done every 5 years.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby jnathan » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:48 pm

A few weeks ago an untrimmed tree took out a transformer essentially in my back yard. Apparently the homeownesr whose yard the base and root system of the tree are in have been very resistant to trimming efforts despite requests from nearby neighbors.

Unfortunately the ROW crew dropped a lot of branches on my propane grill, which seems to have survived. At the time, however, I didn't know this. So, in frustration I tossed the cut branches over my back-yard fence into the homeowner's lawn.

One of the homeowners came out into her back yard and kept trying to talk to me, though I was in no mood to talk to her so I attempted to remain quiet but eventually had to stop her and ask "whose tree is it?". She paused for a second and told me, "well, It's my tree."

I only wish I'd have been clever enough to tell her "Then think of it as me returning your property to you."

Back on-topic: I'm equally surprised to see how long people were without power and hope this isn't a precursor for things to come. It's not even Winter yet and conditions are far better now than they will be during the dead of winter just after a major storm. It's a little worrisome to consider that people could be without power for multiple weeks at a time - people who aren't prepared to be without power for that much time.

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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby RickOShea » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:42 pm

jnathan wrote:A few weeks ago an untrimmed tree took out a transformer essentially in my back yard. Apparently the homeownesr whose yard the base and root system of the tree are in have been very resistant to trimming efforts despite requests from nearby neighbors.


I work at an electric "cooperative", so we don't have too many problems with our consumers. To get electric service you have to be a member of the co-op. And by agreeing to be a member, you have to sign a "membership agreement", which clearly states that we have a right to trim or remove "hazard" trees as part of our line maintenence.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby RottnJP » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:57 am

I'll chip in a little here.

11 days off the grid. Not too bad with a backup generator, but I didn't have it set up ideally- Only half the house was powered, which didn't include the furnace. Wood stove, though, so not a huge deal. After a few days I jumpered the furnace line into a live line, and we were good to go. Then it was just a matter of picking up gas every couple days.

I've picked up a few observations after 5 days out from Irene and 11 from Alfred.
1) There is no excuse for not having a decent generator and a chain saw if you are prepping. Especially if you're a gun guy. A $500 backup generator is half the price of an AR, and many times more useful.
2) If you live in the country, water is not a worry at all. Generator + well = non-issue. A 5 gallon bucket with a spigot in the bottom is nice if you are running the generator sporadically, though. For people living in the city, water was a much bigger deal- boil advisories came out as muni water systems went off-line. Don't assume because you're on city water you don't have to worry about it. City folks ought to have at least a few 5 gallon food grade buckets put away so they can put up some potable water in a hurry. Sanitation gets to be a concern- People go through more water flushing their toilets than drinking. Keep a few more buckets for flush water, if you can. (Obviously if you live in warmer climes, it's not as big a deal. But I'm not sending my 6 year old out to poop in the back yard in the middle of the night at 10 degrees out.)
3) Food was really not an issue. It's pretty easy to stock up enough beans, rice, Mountain Home, canned meat, veggies, to last a while. Plus one thing FEMA knows how to do is bring MRE's. There were plenty of MRE's available for people who needed them, by about the 3rd day. As long as there is some central authority & functioning infrastructure, even at the town level, people will figure out how to help the most vulnerable.
4) The 72-hour plan is not enough. We've learned that the power grid is much more fragile than people realize, and companies aren't staffed to handle major damage. We were lucky- The damage could have been much worse from a bad ice storm in mid December. That kind of scenario would have been a true disaster- a surprising number of people don't have even basic prep/plans, and 2 or 3 weeks of sub-zero temps would have been a much worse story out here. People really need to think about how they'll manage for several weeks. Some towns in CT were down 2 weeks... Again, that's with "moderate" damage and weather that cooperated with clean up crews.
5) The community came together in beautiful ways. Neighbors cleared the streets, checked on each other, took care of people without generators, let people stay over as needed, got MRE's to the people who needed them, etc.
6) The local governmental response was overwhelmed even by this relatively minor, regional issue. They relied on the reports from the community of where there were problems and people in need.
7) There will always be a segment of the population who tries to prey on others when they see an opportunity- demanding money from old folks after "volunteering" clean up, pretending to be with the utility company and "charging a hookup fee" etc.
8) The unprepared get frustrated pretty quickly. Within a week the town government and utility people were getting death threats, there were issues maintaining control at shelters, etc. That's a week with no power, cold overnights but mild days, fully intact authority structure, and no question it was simply a temporary regional issue. On the one hand, the cooperation among "reasonably prepared neighbors" was great. On the other, some totally unprepared folks were really blind-sided by the notion that the government and utility company couldn't fix everything in time for supper.
9) Plan for older/vulnerable folks about whom you care: Make sure you identify who the emergency authority will be in your town or area, and make them aware of any people you care about who have medical conditions, or may be at risk in these kinds of circumstances. Town personnel used bucket loaders if they had to to get through to do welfare checks and deliver food and water. But they can't do it if they don't know someone is at risk, and they didn't have the resources to go door to door- They are really relying on neighbors to do that locally and then report the critical needs.

One of the key vulnerabilities I saw was that all of us who managed quite nicely with generators are still dependent on the trucks to keep bringing gas. Lines were hours long in some cases, especially the first few days until people stocked up and settled into a rhythm. You want to have enough fuel to handle not having to deal with lines too frequently. But in the event of a major infra-structure disruption, people are in for a much bigger set of challenges. Personally, I'd like to get a larger Diesel generator and an extra tank of home heating oil (which is just lower grade off-road diesel.) With an extra 300 gallons of generator fuel available if needed, I could handle a couple weeks without having to worry about fuel lines.

Oh yeah- Cable/VOIP phone service is not at all damage tolerant. Cell phones are much more survivable, at least for a few days until tower batteries start to run out. Then the service starts getting much spottier. Even when it's working, with the heavier than normal demands on the system, don't expect to be able to make your calls the first time.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby majorhavoc » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:29 am

RottnJP wrote:I'll chip in a little here.

11 days off the grid. . . . .
I've picked up a few observations after 5 days out from Irene and 11 from Alfred.
. . . . .


Some really good observations there, RottnJP. People could do a lot worse than print out you post, pin it to their fridge and let it guide them in their overall disaster prep planning and philosophy.

There are still those in the disaster prep community who believe prudent planning should focus primarily on a BOB and things like determining whether an EOTech or an Aimpoint would make the most sense for their next AR build. More power to them if they've addressed the points you raise above, but if they haven't, they're likely in for a sobering reality check.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby Winston Smith » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:00 am

Yeah, this definitely should have been an eye opener for anyone who hasn't taken disaster prep seriously. A week without power was very humbling for the majority of people, and that was a really half assed snow storm(less than a foot here, just really damp and heavy and took down lots of branches). Just shows how fragile our infrastructure is.
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Re: East Coast Snowstorm - loss of power

Postby uglydog » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:37 am

IMO the east coast snowstorm convinced me that our society is a bunch of wimp asses who totally depend on our societal infrastructure minute by minute. Its frightening, the absolute intensive whining that came from an every 100 year (leaves on the trees) snowstorm.

The reality was some final reports said that the CL&P response was fairly good and that a 8 day turn time was pretty good considering the damage, though we can't make comment here regarding the political response to the masses .

People in the 1920-1930's and till the 80's or so grew up in hard times from the old country, now a large part of society has lost that sense of guts to deal with living hard. Like my Momma washed me when I was a babe from water heated in a copper tub on a propane stove (oh, no electricity needed, match lit). By now you know I'm old.....

All this convinced me that this event was a light skirmish for our society though they do not realize that.

Compound here, Level 1 zonal control plan executed , extended family here, Zombie Neighbors were huddling together with their manly 8000 watt generators looking for gas no where to me found, we should have more of these to test ourselves, sick person I iz. Glad to see that some of us are using this as a lessons learned.

I read somewhere that you need a primary backup and then a backup and another backup. Foundation thought.

The future is bleak, boys, goal may be to move to a small community in NH or NC. Cause when the zombies come, they may not be all entirely dead.

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