Crimson Trace vs. Lasermax vs. Laserlyte vs. TLR-2

[tarafore]

Okay, so I've been looking at laser options. I'm not 100% convinced I need a laser, but I've got plenty of threads to read about the pros and cons (my search-fu isn't that bad).

However, I would like a breakdown of experiences with different brands of lasers. Here's what I know so far. What am I missing? Any reports on real reliability?

Crimson Trace:
Pro: outstanding reputation
Pro: reasonable cost for lasergrips, even for G26
Pro: Lasergrips mean the gun will fit any standard holster
Con: no lasergrips for Five-seveN or other "exotic" guns

Lasermax:
Pro: good reputation
Pro: very reasonable cost for rail-mounted lasers

Laserlyte:
Pro: the smallest rail-mounted laser will supposedly allow standard holsters to be used
Pro: lowest cost of the three ($50 less than Lasermax for equivalent products)
Con: Heard good things, but not as universally as, say, Crimson Trace. But it is made in the USA, at least.

Streamlight TLR-2
Pro: light and laser for not much more than Crimson Trace
Pro: Streamlight is a very respected brand
Con: Doesn't fit standard holsters
??: Will it fit holsters designed to accommodate the TLR-1?

Thanks in advance!

[Quietus]

I have the Crimson Trace. Don't know why I bought it, but most likely just because it was on sale

Honestly, I would never use it. Tried, just for fun, but as all other lasers, it's completely useless 99,9% of the time. And it has the added feature of fucking up your grip. At least on Glocks.

Not sure about all guns and all holters, But I have a couple that will need modding, for the glock version to fit perfectly.

If you are not 100% sure that you need it, you absolutely don't.

[Zombland]

I'm with Quietus on this one.

Why bother with a laser sight? I presume you have regular sights on the weapon, yes?

I can imagine a very few rare scenarios where a laser sight may be useful, mostly where it's not possible to bring the gun up to line-of-sight--say, and guard in an armored car shooting through a port while peering through ballistic glass a considerable distance above the port. A a riot policeman shooting around a transparent shield is another. But not very many such situations come to mind.

In the other 99.9% of cases, the laser sights are nothing but another doodad of questionable utility and durability.

In any case, sight-related issues have very little to do with effectively shooting a handgun. Just about everybody can line their sights up. The difficulty comes in not destroying the sight alignment through poor trigger management. And a laser sight does NOTHING to optimize this critical trigger management.

That said, it's a free country. Although I have no use for laser sights, I'm certainly happy to have them on the market, and don't begrudge people who buy them. I just don't see the utility, I guess.

Anyway, good luck with them.

[squinty]

WRT the flashlight/laser combo, there are plenty of affordable custom holster options. Check out "hideous holsters" - they'll make a custom molded kydex holster to your specs, for cheap.

I have crimson trace lasergrips on a couple of my pistols, and like them, so I'll defend them.

1) - I see people with backup sighting options on long guns all the time, why not a backup option on handguns?
2) - There may be occasions, when using a defensive firearm, where you cannot raise the gun into a proper shooting grip and focus on the front sight. Maybe you get knocked down, or have to fire quickly from a speed rock or retention grip. In any situation in which you would rely on point shooting, lasergrips can be helpful.
3) - If you ever are in fear for your life, the natural tendency is to focus on the threat, not on the front sight of your gun. An aiming device that allows you to focus on the threat and still fire accurately is an advantage.
4) - While a laser certainly won't, ever, ever, make up for or compensate for poor trigger control or poor marksmanship fundamentals - (and in fact, if you've been shooting awhile there's a bit of a learning curve to go through to shoot them as well as you would shoot with regular sights) - they are wonderful training aids. I spent a lot of time dry firing my Sig and my Ruger P90 with the laser trained on a target 30 yards away. Any slight variation in grip, any slight imperfection in trigger squeeze is magnified by the motion of the dot at that distance, and the feedback was very helpful to developing a good smooth trigger stroke.

Not sure about the Glock or other firearms, but for my Ruger P90 and my Sig 220 "Equinox" (why didn't I just get a standard 220 ) they were a definite improvement over the hard plastic Ruger grips, or the hard wooden Sig grips. Tacky Hogue like rubber but less aggressively checkered, with palm swells and slight finger indentations made for a firmer grip, with more hand contact, and better more comfortable control.

Soooo....do you need a laser? Absolutely not. Might a laser be a nice thing to have? I certainly think so, and the ones I'd recommend are crimson trace laser GRIPS.

[tarafore]

WRT the flashlight/laser combo, there are plenty of affordable custom holster options. Check out "hideous holsters" - they'll make a custom molded kydex holster to your specs, for cheap.

I have crimson trace lasergrips on a couple of my pistols, and like them, so I'll defend them.

((Snip some good reasons))

in grip, any slight imperfection in trigger squeeze is magnified by the motion of the dot at that distance, and the feedback was very helpful to developing a good smooth trigger stroke.

Not sure about the Glock or other firearms, but for my Ruger P90 and my Sig 220 "Equinox" (why didn't I just get a standard 220 ) they were a definite improvement over the hard plastic Ruger grips, or the hard wooden Sig grips. Tacky Hogue like rubber but less aggressively checkered, with palm swells and slight finger indentations made for a firmer grip, with more hand contact, and better more comfortable control.

Soooo....do you need a laser? Absolutely not. Might a laser be a nice thing to have? I certainly think so, and the ones I'd recommend are crimson trace laser GRIPS.

Those are good reasons. Thanks!

I do have a question, though. What would you recommend for a gun that Crimson Trace doesn't make Laser Grips for, like a Five-seveN?

[squinty]

WRT the flashlight/laser combo, there are plenty of affordable custom holster options. Check out "hideous holsters" - they'll make a custom molded kydex holster to your specs, for cheap.

I have crimson trace lasergrips on a couple of my pistols, and like them, so I'll defend them.

((Snip some good reasons))

in grip, any slight imperfection in trigger squeeze is magnified by the motion of the dot at that distance, and the feedback was very helpful to developing a good smooth trigger stroke.

Not sure about the Glock or other firearms, but for my Ruger P90 and my Sig 220 "Equinox" (why didn't I just get a standard 220 ) they were a definite improvement over the hard plastic Ruger grips, or the hard wooden Sig grips. Tacky Hogue like rubber but less aggressively checkered, with palm swells and slight finger indentations made for a firmer grip, with more hand contact, and better more comfortable control.

Soooo....do you need a laser? Absolutely not. Might a laser be a nice thing to have? I certainly think so, and the ones I'd recommend are crimson trace laser GRIPS.

Those are good reasons. Thanks!

I do have a question, though. What would you recommend for a gun that Crimson Trace doesn't make Laser Grips for, like a Five-seveN?

No idea. The crimson trace grips are all I have experience with.
Lot's of rail mounted options, some come as light/laser combo. Some are expensive - and that's the main drawback to a laser IMO. What you spend on the laser is money that could have purchased a lot of practice ammo. If you're on a tight budget, that means you just sacrificed training in favor of a new gadget.

[Zombland]

1) - I see people with backup sighting options on long guns all the time, why not a backup option on handguns?

Because on long guns the back-ups are more resilient iron sights backing up a potentially more fragile scope or electronic sight.

Putting a laser on a handgun as a "backup" is using the potentially more fragile electric sight as "back up" to the iron sights. Doesn't really make sense.

Good quality, non-adjustable, metal sights on a handgun simply don't fail--or at least any cataclysmic event that would cause such simple, robust sights to fail could hardly be expected to spare a laser sight. (Note that I've excluded from that "don't fail" statement the plastic OEM Glock front sights in particular and adjustable rear sights in general, both of which I've seen fly off guns in matches.)

But whatever floats your boat. I hope you try them and love them. Whatever works best for you, works best for you.

[squinty]

I've had metal sights fail on me in circumstances that left the laser grips unscathed. I suppose we could debate the "good quality" of the sight - it was a Truglo TFO front sight on a Sig Equinox. I was using an IWB holster that had a metal reinforcement band sewn under the leather at the holster's mouth to keep it from collapsing when the gun was removed. The front sight snagged on the metal band one day as I drew the gun while attempting (clumsily) a presentation drill. Hundreds of slow and moderate paced draws without incident, but when I tried to draw the gun more quickly the front sight hung right up. Nearly gave myself a wedgie, and the force of the impact with the metal band bent the front sight and knocked it out of alignment. Grips were still perfectly zeroed for 25 yards.

Then there is the idea of a "backup" for self defense situations where your irons are perfectly functional, but circumstances make it difficult to achieve a good firing grip, shooting stance or sight alignment - either because you don't have time, or you've been knocked on your ass by the assailant, or you are close enough that a "correct" presentation of the gun would leave it vulnerable to a grab, or you are otherwise forced to fight from an awkward or suboptimal position. If you think such circumstances are vanishingly rare, you haven't been in many fights.

I'm not saying lasers are essential - like I said, there's a lot of practice ammo you could buy for the price of a laser, and most definitely practice > gadgets. But they aren't useless either. I do think laser grips are perhaps a bit more durable than rail mounted lasers, simply because of their location on the gun and flush fit against the body of the pistol, but I don't know this for sure.

[Zombland]

Then there is the idea of a "backup" for self defense situations where your irons are perfectly functional, but circumstances make it difficult to achieve a good firing grip, shooting stance or sight alignment - either because you don't have time, or you've been knocked on your ass by the assailant, or you are close enough that a "correct" presentation of the gun would leave it vulnerable to a grab, or you are otherwise forced to fight from an awkward or suboptimal position. If you think such circumstances are vanishingly rare, you haven't been in many fights.

On the contrary, such circumstances are largely the norm in gun fights. And I know that without having been in "many fights". Do YOU get into "many fights"?

The appropriate response to the scenarios you allude to is use of proper technique, not relying on a battery powered piece of equipment that is overwhelmingly more inclined to failure than are robust iron sights (your anecdote being one of a failure of equipment other than the sight, notably a poorly designed holster, and perhaps the sight as well--none of my dovetailed front iron sights could possible be damaged by any action of me drawing the gun from a holster).

How does a laser sight correct a poor firing grip--other than letting you watch the "dot" fly around as you shove the trigger all over the place? If you are vulnerable to a grab, the "correct" presentation is a retention position, and with your assailant at contact distance you should hardly need a laser to align the shot--indeed, you'll be firing so quickly that you won't have time to even contemplate lining up a laser dot. I simply fail to see how a laser helps with being force to fight from an "awkward or suboptimal" position.

But again, none of that matters, it's all just my opinion, just like your opinions are just your opinions. Maybe I'm just too "old school" for lasers. If you like it the laser option, go for it. Good luck with it. I hope it works great for you, and addresses all those concerns you list.

Guess I'll be more impressed when I see a laser-equipped handgun start winning pistol matches, as red-dot sights have for years.

[squinty]

But again, none of that matters, it's all just my opinion, just like your opinions are just your opinions. Maybe I'm just too "old school" for lasers. If you like it the laser option, go for it. Good luck with it. I hope it works great for you, and addresses all those concerns you list.

As a training aid, they have been tremendously helpful with many of those concerns.
Not so great for winning internet arguments though!

[Crazyman]

Just my humbe opinion on the subject, but I think putting a laser on a self defense handgun is like putting a massive muffler on an old honda civic...you can do it, but good lord why? I would recommend you look instead at a good set of day/night iron sights (mine are from trijicon, 3 dot style, love them) and a standard handgun flashlight. I truly think that a laser is just a waste of your money, as well as a training distraction. Train the fundamentals, build good, correct muscle memory, and you will be just fine.

[mikezq8ss]

My Kimber I bought a few years back came with Crimson Trace Laser Grips on it. I like them personally.

On the Kimber it's been a normal grip for me because, like I said, they've been on the gun from day 1. To use them, you don't have to concern yourself with flipping a switch forward on the rail of a pistol, all you have to do is hold it in your normal grip and the laser will work. When you're focusing on the front sight and you see a red dot there, it's reassuring that you're at least doing it right I guess lol...

I'm not saying you need them, but I'm saying I'd pick the Crimson Trace ones. I've had a rail mounted one on my XD45 and wasn't a fan. I can understand flipping a switch for a light, but if you have a laser equipped on your pistol, and it's zeroed, why not use it if you have to draw your pistol? Out of the choices, it's what I'd pick.

[squinty]

How does a laser sight correct a poor firing grip--other than letting you watch the "dot" fly around as you shove the trigger all over the place?

That was the point I was trying to make about the laser's value (IMO) as a training aid. The dot provides useful feedback about what you are doing wrong wrt "shoving the trigger all over the place." Dry firing from a regular shooting stance, you can focus on the front sight and see if it wobbles as you press the trigger. From other positions - such as a retention position - you don't have as ready an index to tell you which way the muzzle's pointing.

[RickOShea]

I have CTs on a couple of my handguns. I like them on my more "compact" pistols and they've held up just fine so far (6 years for the Kimber and 3 years for the Ruger). They're fairly comfortable also, especially on that wild-ass .327 magnum.

[BullOnParade]

N-N-N-NECRONOMICON!

Just wanted to know if the OP made a decision in the past four months as to whether or not they should purchase a laser. I'm in a similar position now, but think I've reached a decision after reading over this thread.

[squinty]

I have CTs on a couple of my handguns. I like them on my more "compact" pistols and they've held up just fine so far (6 years for the Kimber and 3 years for the Ruger). They're fairly comfortable also, especially on that wild-ass .327 magnum.

I'd like to put one on my J-Frame, but it looks like it would force me to alter my grip a little bit - the laser emitter sits kind of low, to clear the cylinder. Did it seem to alter the grip feel for your SP101?

[nimdabew]

I wish I had gotten a picture of the guy I had to light up last night during sim training. While sights are important, at self defense ranges, point shooting using a good grip and muscle memory comes into play a lot. I strung 4 shots in a little under a second along a guy at about 15 feet.

Use the money for additional ammo so you shoot more. Good night sights are a better option.

[Jsimmonsgr]

I run Crimson Trace on both my 1911s, my wifes Hi-Power, and the pair of Bersas that the missus and I use as back up guns. There is something to keep in mind when you are considering a laser device of any kind for a weapon. IT IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR GOOD IRON SIGHTS! Yup, I said it, there is no better way to shoot than iron sights and lots of practice. But, you ask, why buy the lasers in the first place? There are several reasons that lasers are useful, so lets look at em......

1. Shooting from a difficult position. Say you get knocked on your back? Maybe trip and fall on a kid toy in the hallway? Mybe try to shoot from behind cover when you don't really want to expost any more of your body than you have to? All are good reasons..
2. Psychological impact. I worked for almost a decade in the private security field, and no I did not work malls. I did everything from Executive Protection details to armored trucks. When I was working as a site guard for a local hotel that was in the middle of the ghetto I used to get into altercations almost every night. 9 out of 10 times I was able to talk things out with out too much trouble, but there were quite a few times that I had to get aggressive, and occationally use the crap on my 'batman belt' to get my ass out of the fire, so to speak. One of my favorite tools was the X-26 Taser unit, built in laser and light, hurt like hell and was pretty much the terror of the local crackheads. All it took was the laser being pointed at the chest of the individual and they were begging to not be shot. Don't ask me why, but with hollywood using laser more and more it seems that the criminal element is under the impression that if you have one you are a one man army\killing machine.
3. Target ID. If you are shooting and have a few friends with you, it can be a useful tool to poit out a distant target.

Personally I prefer the Crismon Trace front activated lasers, when you grip the weapon in a firing position they are automaticly activated, no extra thought required. With the exception of the models for polymer framed pistols with no grip panels, they are very unobtrusive and light. They also have very good battery life.

[squinty]

This has never come up for me because I am maladjusted and have no friends, so I never thought about a self defense situation where I wasn't the only defender. What do you do if you have multiple people on your side, all engaging the same target or group of targets, and you are all using lasers? How quickly and easily, in the stress of a fight, can you differentiate your laser dot from your team mates'?

[Blacksmith]

This has never come up for me because I am maladjusted and have no friends, so I never thought about a self defense situation where I wasn't the only defender. What do you do if you have multiple people on your side, all engaging the same target or group of targets, and you are all using lasers? How quickly and easily, in the stress of a fight, can you differentiate your laser dot from your team mates'?

Pretty easy in the military. We use different heads to display one of five different images on the target. I don't know why you would be in a SD situation with several friends with hand guns. Never even heard of such a thing.

[Zombland]

I don't know why you would be in a SD situation with several friends with hand guns. Never even heard of such a thing.

Maybe you haven't heard about it because the presence of several law-abiding CCW creates an atmosphere uncomfortable for those who prey on the weak and helpless.

Anytime I'm in the company of several of my friends I'm by definition in the company of several friends who are also carrying handguns. We'd sooner go out without our wallets than forget our CCW.

[Blacksmith]

Maybe you haven't heard about it because the presence of several law-abiding CCW creates an atmosphere uncomfortable for those who prey on the weak and helpless.

Unlikely about the CCW part. After all how would the bad guys know you were CCing?

However a group is much less likely to be bothered or targeted than an individual.

[squinty]

This has never come up for me because I am maladjusted and have no friends, so I never thought about a self defense situation where I wasn't the only defender. What do you do if you have multiple people on your side, all engaging the same target or group of targets, and you are all using lasers? How quickly and easily, in the stress of a fight, can you differentiate your laser dot from your team mates'?

Pretty easy in the military. We use different heads to display one of five different images on the target. I don't know why you would be in a SD situation with several friends with hand guns. Never even heard of such a thing.

Me neither, and it seems unlikely which is why I never thought about it until the post above my last post, mentioned that he and his wife both carried, talked about using the laser sight as a target indicator for others in a group etc.. I didn't realize the military still used laser pointer style sights - I thought red dots and such had replaced them. I do remember eighties action movies that featured teams of people using them, never wondered how to tell one dot from another.

[BullOnParade]

This has never come up for me because I am maladjusted and have no friends, so I never thought about a self defense situation where I wasn't the only defender. What do you do if you have multiple people on your side, all engaging the same target or group of targets, and you are all using lasers? How quickly and easily, in the stress of a fight, can you differentiate your laser dot from your team mates'?

That's easy, go green, as in, get a green laser.