Maximizing Range Time?

[azstinger]

So today I had my annual USAF 9mil qualification and it was a bit of an eye opener for me. While I passed, I did so but not a very large margin. Which to me says something in that I truly believe that qualification isn't that difficult.

So with that being said I have made a promise to myself that I am going to spend at least one hour every week on the range. I was just curious what you pros would suggest as being the most beneficial use of that time. I am not looking for advanced handgun techniques or tactical shooting, just consistently hitting my target. While this just attests to my lack of skill I was obviously worse at the greater ranges than the shorter ranges. Sadly at the shorter ranges while I was hitting paper I couldn't get a grouping to save my soul and was not hitting really what I was aiming at, i.e. a head shot would hit shoulders or paper above left or right, center mass shots would hit anywhere from neck to hips.

I have budgeted for no more than 150 rounds per week. I also don't believe in the philosophy that just putting lead down range is useful. Initially I am going to be working on trigger pull as I was quite jumpy. This was really noticeable when pulling from the de-cocked position.

So any web reading materials or just general advise would be greatly appreciated.

[AKFTW]

I would try to get a .22 conversion slide for your pistol as this can immensely increase the amount of practice you can get in for the dollar per range session. .22 really helps with a flinch as do ball-and-dummy drills (mixing live ammo with dummy rounds randomly in a mag).

What I do is I start my practice with a mag of 9mm, switch to the .22 slide and do some group shooting, some point shooting, switch back to 9mm and do some point shooting, then switch back to .22 and practice drawing and shooting, then shoot the rest of my 100rd box of 9mm after I load up some rounds for the ride home. A great way to practice without using any ammo is to dry fire, you can practice the fundamentals of drawing, grip, sight picture, trigger control, reloads, and almost everything except the actual bang.

[azstinger]

I would try to get a .22 conversion slide for your pistol as this can immensely increase the amount of practice you can get in for the dollar per range session. .22 really helps with a flinch as do ball-and-dummy drills (mixing live ammo with dummy rounds randomly in a mag).

What I do is I start my practice with a mag of 9mm, switch to the .22 slide and do some group shooting, some point shooting, switch back to 9mm and do some point shooting, then switch back to .22 and practice drawing and shooting, then shoot the rest of my 100rd box of 9mm after I load up some rounds for the ride home. A great way to practice without using any ammo is to dry fire, you can practice the fundamentals of drawing, grip, sight picture, trigger control, reloads, and almost everything except the actual bang.

Ok time for the stupid question time to begin, I apologize in advance...

Any recommendations for a slide conversion (if unable to post here, feel free to send me a private msg, as I don't quite remember the forum's policy on such matters)?

Ok so after some googling I think i know what point shooting is. Basically self defense, close-quarters, look at the target instead of the normal sight alignment? Are there any drills in particular? I'm thinking the range would be what 5-10 meters for these?

Group shooting i'm assuming is the opposite? Where you focus on sight picture, breathing, etc?

I do plan on doing a lot of dry fire practice.

It's funny give me my m1 Garand and I can give you a 3-5 grouping at 100 yards, give me a pistol and I'll give you a 3-5 foot grouping at 5 yards.

[AKFTW]

I would try to get a .22 conversion slide for your pistol as this can immensely increase the amount of practice you can get in for the dollar per range session. .22 really helps with a flinch as do ball-and-dummy drills (mixing live ammo with dummy rounds randomly in a mag).

What I do is I start my practice with a mag of 9mm, switch to the .22 slide and do some group shooting, some point shooting, switch back to 9mm and do some point shooting, then switch back to .22 and practice drawing and shooting, then shoot the rest of my 100rd box of 9mm after I load up some rounds for the ride home. A great way to practice without using any ammo is to dry fire, you can practice the fundamentals of drawing, grip, sight picture, trigger control, reloads, and almost everything except the actual bang.

Ok time for the stupid question time to begin, I apologize in advance...

Any recommendations for a slide conversion (if unable to post here, feel free to send me a private msg, as I don't quite remember the forum's policy on such matters)?

Ok so after some googling I think i know what point shooting is. Basically self defense, close-quarters, look at the target instead of the normal sight alignment? Are there any drills in particular? I'm thinking the range would be what 5-10 meters for these?

Group shooting i'm assuming is the opposite? Where you focus on sight picture, breathing, etc?

I do plan on doing a lot of dry fire practice.

It's funny give me my m1 Garand and I can give you a 3-5 grouping at 100 yards, give me a pistol and I'll give you a 3-5 foot grouping at 5 yards.

Pretty much that's the deal. I practice both because there is a time and place for both. Look up some material on point shooting, it's really pretty amazing what you can do when you stop thinking and let your body and mind work together to guide the bullet. It may sound hokey but it's like using the force if you get the technique down. I have shot like this in Steel Challenge matches and did pretty well.

Anyway, what pistol are you running? I assume a Beretta M9? A friend of mine in ROTC has a Ciener conversion slide for his Beretta, and while I have heard nothing but negative things about the business practices of Ciener, the kit runs well and is fairly accurate. I have the Advantage Arms slide for my Glock 17 and mine is a freaking tack driver if I do my part. I have no problem blasting fragments of clays at 30+ yards and I can get pretty tiny groups too. The big thing about a conversion instead of a dedicated .22 is that you are shooting the same gun, working the same trigger, etc- just with less recoil and cost.

[azstinger]

I would try to get a .22 conversion slide for your pistol as this can immensely increase the amount of practice you can get in for the dollar per range session. .22 really helps with a flinch as do ball-and-dummy drills (mixing live ammo with dummy rounds randomly in a mag).

What I do is I start my practice with a mag of 9mm, switch to the .22 slide and do some group shooting, some point shooting, switch back to 9mm and do some point shooting, then switch back to .22 and practice drawing and shooting, then shoot the rest of my 100rd box of 9mm after I load up some rounds for the ride home. A great way to practice without using any ammo is to dry fire, you can practice the fundamentals of drawing, grip, sight picture, trigger control, reloads, and almost everything except the actual bang.

Ok time for the stupid question time to begin, I apologize in advance...

Any recommendations for a slide conversion (if unable to post here, feel free to send me a private msg, as I don't quite remember the forum's policy on such matters)?

Ok so after some googling I think i know what point shooting is. Basically self defense, close-quarters, look at the target instead of the normal sight alignment? Are there any drills in particular? I'm thinking the range would be what 5-10 meters for these?

Group shooting i'm assuming is the opposite? Where you focus on sight picture, breathing, etc?

I do plan on doing a lot of dry fire practice.

It's funny give me my m1 Garand and I can give you a 3-5 grouping at 100 yards, give me a pistol and I'll give you a 3-5 foot grouping at 5 yards.

Pretty much that's the deal. I practice both because there is a time and place for both. Look up some material on point shooting, it's really pretty amazing what you can do when you stop thinking and let your body and mind work together to guide the bullet. It may sound hokey but it's like using the force if you get the technique down. I have shot like this in Steel Challenge matches and did pretty well.

Anyway, what pistol are you running? I assume a Beretta M9? A friend of mine in ROTC has a Ciener conversion slide for his Beretta, and while I have heard nothing but negative things about the business practices of Ciener, the kit runs well and is fairly accurate. I have the Advantage Arms slide for my Glock 17 and mine is a freaking tack driver if I do my part. I have no problem blasting fragments of clays at 30+ yards and I can get pretty tiny groups too. The big thing about a conversion instead of a dedicated .22 is that you are shooting the same gun, working the same trigger, etc- just with less recoil and cost.

Yeah I am shooting a Beretta 92FS same thing as the M9.

For point shooting all my searches keep flagging this website

http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm

They recommend Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back, any info on that for getting the technique down?

[AKFTW]

I watched the Point Shooting Progressions DVD by Roger Phillips, and that was extremely informative. Fairbairn, Sykes, and later Applegate were basically the fathers of modern point shooting, though I have no doubt old west gunslingers did more point shooting than sighted shooting when it came down to gunfights.

[Psypher]

azstinger,

This might sound dumb, but go with it for a second. Do you carry a sidearm as part of your military service (MOS / Job)? Do you have a tax professional prepare your taxes? Do you itemize your deductions?

If you hit a Yes with all 3 of those, consult your tax preparer as you might be able to make a firearm purchase and write it off on your taxes. When I was at Ft. Benning, Ga one of the tax professionals on post informed my MP unit that if we bought copies or the same version of what we carried that we could write it off. The same went for my ammunition and targets used to maintain my pistol skills on my time, so long as I was using those written off items together.

You might look into it to see if it can still be done and exploit it if you can. That will give you the ability to take your work home and practice so to speak. I only say this because I had major issues shooting the Beretta M9 and could just barely qualify.

Another neat trick a Viet Nam vet gave me was to take a piece of paper and tape it to a wall with a bullseye drawn or use a bullseye target of some sort. Pistol COMPLETELY unloaded, insert a #2 pencil (sharpened) eraser into the barrel. Then work on your fundamentals standing exactly at arms length from the paper so the pencil can jump an inch out of the barrel and mark the paper. This trick helped me considerably.

[azstinger]

azstinger,

This might sound dumb, but go with it for a second. Do you carry a sidearm as part of your military service (MOS / Job)? Do you have a tax professional prepare your taxes? Do you itemize your deductions?

If you hit a Yes with all 3 of those, consult your tax preparer as you might be able to make a firearm purchase and write it off on your taxes. When I was at Ft. Benning, Ga one of the tax professionals on post informed my MP unit that if we bought copies or the same version of what we carried that we could write it off. The same went for my ammunition and targets used to maintain my pistol skills on my time, so long as I was using those written off items together.

You might look into it to see if it can still be done and exploit it if you can. That will give you the ability to take your work home and practice so to speak. I only say this because I had major issues shooting the Beretta M9 and could just barely qualify.

Another neat trick a Viet Nam vet gave me was to take a piece of paper and tape it to a wall with a bullseye drawn or use a bullseye target of some sort. Pistol COMPLETELY unloaded, insert a #2 pencil (sharpened) eraser into the barrel. Then work on your fundamentals standing exactly at arms length from the paper so the pencil can jump an inch out of the barrel and mark the paper. This trick helped me considerably.

Hmm I'll have to look into that. My job doesn't require me to daily carry but there are times it does require it so not sure I qualify but I'll take a look.

[BigDaddyTX]

Watch some YouTube videos on different grips and stances, try a different one each time you go to the range, or bring your phone if you can watch them on there and try several and see what you like. Trebor has an article that helped my shooting he posted on ZS somewhere that you should read, basically don't watch the target, keep your front sight post in your vision and your shots will group better. (that is a poor simplification, but hopefully he'll chime in and link the article). Admittedly I was shooting at 5 yds yesterday, but I was all in the 9 ring or better, which for me is a dramatic improvement. I'm really working the fundamentals right now, and those are the things that helped me the most.

[oldsoldier]

I am assuming you qualified with the M9, correct? Now, this is MY opinion-that particular gun is not real easy to shoot well. The frame is large, and the trigger sucks. Shooting on your own, with another type of pistol (assuming you dont own a Beretta), will drill basics for you, but, it may, or may not, translate that easily into the M9.
When I first got out of the Army, I bought a Beretta, as it was the only pistol I was intimately familiar with. A while later, someone let me shoot their M&P, and I was sold immediately. It fit my hand well, had good ergonomics, and was somewhat customizable. Now, I am not suggesting running out to by another pistol (well, I am, but I understand you may not be able to!!), but, there is a huge difference between an issue firearm, and one for personal use-primarily it being customizable.

[BigDaddyTX]

viewtopic.php?f=110&t=50688

This is the post I referenced earlier, a good read.

[Tommy Tran]

150rds/week is a huge amount of training compared to most people!

Since you sound like you need to work on basics, accuracy and trigger control, here is what I would suggest.

Week 1- 15min of dry fire practice per day 5min of DA dry fire nice and slow watching sights so they dont move, you dry firing time doesnt start until you are pressing the trigger and the sights dont move when the hammer falls. Then 5min of SA doing the same then 5min of drawing from holster and breaking a CLEAN DA shot.
For the range time have a friend or someone else there load your mags with live rounds and snap caps in random orders. Using DA, SLOW fire 50rds at 5yds at 4inch targets(aim small miss small). If you did your dry fire you should be putting down some recognizable groups, focusing on a steady front sight while using a smooth press of the trigger(do not look at the hammer! lol). Use the snap caps for two purposes, to make sure you arent flinching and are maintaining good trigger control and second to learn to tap(the bottom of the mag), rack(the slide to dump the dud round), bang(fresh sight picture and proper trigger press)
Take a break! Working on accuracy takes focus and brain power, go recharge, have a beverage, smoke, dip, whatever.
Put up fresh targets and do the same in SA for the next 50rds
Take another break
Fresh targets again this time safely draw from holster 1 shot DA and 1 shot SA slowly but smoothly.
Go home and be happy with your work at the range, hopefully you made some progress.

Week 2- Same as week one(yes, including the dry fire) but start to speed up, only go as fast as your accuracy lets you, your groups will open up but shoot faster(smoother) without excceeding the 4in targets. For the DA and SA portions of this week start from a compressed low ready(two handed grip, weapon pointing down range, drawn to sternum) smooth controlled presentation and break your shot.

Week 3- Same as week 1 but only 25rds(each) of DA and SA, the rest of the 100rds is drawing from the holster so you begin to learn the transition from DA to SA after the first round. Again increase speed while staying within the 4in target area.

If you want a marker for this area you should be able to draw, present and fire your DA and SA shots(2 shots total in under 2sec within the 4in target area). I usually dont have people move on until they can meet this criteria

Week 4- Same as week 1 except move back to 10yds. You may have to slow down Its only natural!

Week 5- get faster

Week 6 by this time you should be confident enough to pass any qualification or start competing in IDPA, USPSA, steel matches(local) or something else... sky is the limit!

[chills1994]

literally, books, and DVD's have been written/produced on the subject matter.

I come at shooting guns from the competition end of things, USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge.

Errrr.....let me back up.... have you checked yourself for eye dominance?

okay, back on topic, in the so called "practical shooting" (competition) sphere of pistolcraft, the current Bible is Brian Enos's book:

http://www.brianenos.com/store/books.html

you can see some other books listed there.

A shooting buddy of mine once told me about 6 years ago that Brian's book takes about 3 pages to describe how to draw your pistol from a holster. He went on to say it was rather a Zen like oriented book. Another guy also wondered what Brian had been smoking when he wrote it. So I never felt the urge to to buy his book.

Brian goes into detail, I think, about the different types of focus, which probably does just break down into either just point shooting versus putting the front sight on the target.

one of the key things you have to be capable of (besides not blinking when the gun goes BANG!), is to be able to call your shots. I can't explain it any better than this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1XC8k-tZc

as he mentions in the video, your next evolution of becoming a pistolero is to be able to see or watch the front sight post flip up and then settle right back down into the rear's notch.

Here is some hatcam video of me shooting a match last fall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEV5vk-6Auc

I'd actually shoot better if I got some sleep before matches.

also check out Ben Stoeger's website:

http://benstoeger.com/

he progressed a bunch just through dry fire at home, airsoft (sometimes with just the gas and NO plastic BB's), and a .22LR conversion kit.

Todd Jarret on the grip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

Doug Koenig on the stance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp_2ECfbwKo

The Power Factor Show guys on sights and sighting, Part One (it's 31 minutes long):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aFIZn6d ... er&list=UL

[azstinger]

150rds/week is a huge amount of training compared to most people!

Since you sound like you need to work on basics, accuracy and trigger control, here is what I would suggest.

Week 1- 15min of dry fire practice per day 5min of DA dry fire nice and slow watching sights so they dont move, you dry firing time doesnt start until you are pressing the trigger and the sights dont move when the hammer falls. Then 5min of SA doing the same then 5min of drawing from holster and breaking a CLEAN DA shot.
For the range time have a friend or someone else there load your mags with live rounds and snap caps in random orders. Using DA, SLOW fire 50rds at 5yds at 4inch targets(aim small miss small). If you did your dry fire you should be putting down some recognizable groups, focusing on a steady front sight while using a smooth press of the trigger(do not look at the hammer! lol). Use the snap caps for two purposes, to make sure you arent flinching and are maintaining good trigger control and second to learn to tap(the bottom of the mag), rack(the slide to dump the dud round), bang(fresh sight picture and proper trigger press)
Take a break! Working on accuracy takes focus and brain power, go recharge, have a beverage, smoke, dip, whatever.
Put up fresh targets and do the same in SA for the next 50rds
Take another break
Fresh targets again this time safely draw from holster 1 shot DA and 1 shot SA slowly but smoothly.
Go home and be happy with your work at the range, hopefully you made some progress.

Week 2- Same as week one(yes, including the dry fire) but start to speed up, only go as fast as your accuracy lets you, your groups will open up but shoot faster(smoother) without excceeding the 4in targets. For the DA and SA portions of this week start from a compressed low ready(two handed grip, weapon pointing down range, drawn to sternum) smooth controlled presentation and break your shot.

Week 3- Same as week 1 but only 25rds(each) of DA and SA, the rest of the 100rds is drawing from the holster so you begin to learn the transition from DA to SA after the first round. Again increase speed while staying within the 4in target area.

If you want a marker for this area you should be able to draw, present and fire your DA and SA shots(2 shots total in under 2sec within the 4in target area). I usually dont have people move on until they can meet this criteria

Week 4- Same as week 1 except move back to 10yds. You may have to slow down Its only natural!

Week 5- get faster

Week 6 by this time you should be confident enough to pass any qualification or start competing in IDPA, USPSA, steel matches(local) or something else... sky is the limit!

Thanks for the tips, defiantly will be trying those. The only problem is the range I currently go to does let you do any holster work what so ever. The only two times it is allowed in a holster is when you walk in and when you walk out (provided of course you have a CCW).

[AKFTW]

Thanks for the tips, defiantly will be trying those. The only problem is the range I currently go to does let you do any holster work what so ever. The only two times it is allowed in a holster is when you walk in and when you walk out (provided of course you have a CCW).

Wow, that's a bullshit rule. Sometimes I wish there was an indoor range around here but then I hear about crap like this and I'm happy to go freeze my butt off outside and have nobody telling me what, when, how, or how long I can shoot.

[Tommy Tran]

Thanks for the tips, defiantly will be trying those. The only problem is the range I currently go to does let you do any holster work what so ever. The only two times it is allowed in a holster is when you walk in and when you walk out (provided of course you have a CCW).

Wow, that's a bullshit rule. Sometimes I wish there was an indoor range around here but then I hear about crap like this and I'm happy to go freeze my butt off outside and have nobody telling me what, when, how, or how long I can shoot.

Yeah Ben Avery here in the valley doesnt allow holster work, Scottsdale Gun Club you have to have holster cert(easy to get)... Just too much chance for booger hook on bang switch jackholes to touch off a round during the draw. Plenty of desert shooting to be had out here though!

[azstinger]

I realllllllllllllllllllly miss shooting in Arizona. My two favorite spots growing up were either this place where other OTHER people dumped trash off the 74 just a little ways past ben avery. If you had a 4x4 you could go out there and shot anything from glass bottles to computers depending on what others had left. We always made it a point to pick up something and dispose of it properly to help out the land. The other favorite spot I had was down in Tucson off redington road way up in the hills.

[azstinger]

I am assuming you qualified with the M9, correct? Now, this is MY opinion-that particular gun is not real easy to shoot well. The frame is large, and the trigger sucks. Shooting on your own, with another type of pistol (assuming you dont own a Beretta), will drill basics for you, but, it may, or may not, translate that easily into the M9.
When I first got out of the Army, I bought a Beretta, as it was the only pistol I was intimately familiar with. A while later, someone let me shoot their M&P, and I was sold immediately. It fit my hand well, had good ergonomics, and was somewhat customizable. Now, I am not suggesting running out to by another pistol (well, I am, but I understand you may not be able to!!), but, there is a huge difference between an issue firearm, and one for personal use-primarily it being customizable.

I did in fact qualify on the M9 and was given one as a gift when I entered the military by my dad so, that being said I am not super tied to that particular pistol and plan on trading it eventually for something else.

[ais4122]

I plan on taking my first professional civilian firearms/shooting training class. Jason Falla's Tactical Carbine 2 day course. I decided to take it when I recently watched the Art of the Tactical Carbine, and realized that the US Army Infantry shooting doctrine ( prior service grunt) isn't as top notch as thought it was. The last thing I want to do is take this course ( not a beginners course) and look like a noob. So Im starting to dry fire at home a couple times a week. The closest indoor range is about 40 miles from me. The local outdoor range is a pain in the ass. A range master who is an old timer and yells too much. Also the town has lots of restrictions, no human shaped targets and of course your waiting forever to get to go check your target. Anyway Im trying to learn to shoot, even though I have been shooting for 24 years, I feel I can still learn a lot. So in addition to the DVDs, which have great info, so much has changed in the last 10 years, I purchased Brian Enos book on practical shooting. Ive heard it called the bible of shooting. Well its not an easy read. So far Ive got thru about 2 chapters and its a lot of philisophical mumbo jumbo. So I started reading another book on speed shooting, which is much more mechanical and technical- things Brian says have no part in learning to shoot well. Has anyone actually read the Brian Enos book? Did you get anything out of it, did it work? So far the most incredible thing I have read is that the isoceles shooting stance is superior to the weaver stance. Of course I have been shooting weaver all this time, its recommended in police firearms training, which is my primary shooting experience. So it looks like Im starting from scratch.

[nimdabew]

What works for me might or might not work for you. If you shoot weaver just fine, shoot weaver. I shoot Isosceles/weaver/groucho all in one with hovering thumb grips. It works for me. Don't completely change what you have been doing for years because some dude that wants to make a buck says that the Isosceles is better.

[Tommy Tran]

LOL I couldnt make it through the Eno's book either. Im a more math and geometry type of learner.

They need something like Ben Hogans 5 lessons for shooting hahah(that book did change my golf game though!)

[A.C.E.]

Tagged for beeing relevant to my interests.

Sent from my MK16i using Tapatalk

[Tobias05]

...Any updates on your progress? Improving?

...I carry a 92fs, I too was suckered into buying one after carrying it in iraq. the ridiculous trigger pull on that first shot does suck lol. lately i find myself jerking the trigger a bit and the round going wide, although i seem to keep sight picture under control and am able to get the next 3-4 rounds on target, all things considered. I shoot weaver stance and I am also a southpaw.

i just moved out in the country and have 5 acres to myself and thus find myself shooting much more.

Don't forget the importance of snapping in! I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but it works!

I am fond of my M9, but its bulk has definately narrowed down my wardrobe selection considerably haha

Good luck!