Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby Utah_ZHunter » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:02 pm

Basil Duke wrote:As a follow-up to a recent "Knock Out" assault on Grand Avenue - a major north-south road on St. Louis City's south side: Yesterday, the accused perps (six thugs aged 12 to 14) were released from custody because the only witness to the attack failed to show in court. The victim, a guy in his early 50s, had been knocked down and stomped until his jaw was broken. Bizarrely, he was saved from even worse injuries only because the mayor of St. Louis happened to drive by the scene and stopped, with his body guard - at which point the thugs scurried away. Unfortunately, neither the mayor nor his bodyguard managed to get visuals on the attackers. The only witness was a 13-year-old girl - who had apparently been threatened and cowed into withdrawing her original testimony. After being released from custody, the thugs and their families high-fived each other and hollered triumphantly in the hall outside the courtroom, according to local media reports.

^^^That makes me sick. :cry: At least have some humility. Or humanity in the first place. It is verry bad when a Mayor has to stop something like this. Any one know how the "Old Guy" is doing?
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby DarkAxel » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:06 pm

There's some stuff in this thread that just makes me :lol: :lol: :lol:

If you have to pull your CCW because you walked right by a group of aggressive adolescents before they attacked you, YOU HAVE FAILED!

Not having to pull you weapon because you cut through the alley to avoid them IS A WIN.


A firearm on your hip or 1337 ninja skillz shouldn't be an excuse to ignore your instincts or your environment.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby squinty » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:56 pm

DarkAxel wrote:There's some stuff in this thread that just makes me :lol: :lol: :lol:

If you have to pull your CCW because you walked right by a group of aggressive adolescents before they attacked you, YOU HAVE FAILED!

Not having to pull you weapon because you cut through the alley to avoid them IS A WIN.


A firearm on your hip or 1337 ninja skillz shouldn't be an excuse to ignore your instincts or your environment.


True enough, a firearm shouldn't be an excuse to take chances you wouldn't otherwise take, or to go clueless into places you'd normally be apprehensive. Situational awareness is a more basic, and more important, skill than firearms handling or combative self defense. But I don't think anyone is arguing that CCW negates the need to be aware and prudent. Nor is it humanly possible to foresee and avoid every dicey situation out in the world. That alley might be a nice secluded ambush point - and your sudden detour through it the gesture that made the yutes curious enough about your victim status that they pour in after you. That didn't mean it was a bad decision to avoid the crowd of ne'er'do wells. Just that even the best laid plans can go off the rails.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby DarkAxel » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:20 am

squinty wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:There's some stuff in this thread that just makes me :lol: :lol: :lol:

If you have to pull your CCW because you walked right by a group of aggressive adolescents before they attacked you, YOU HAVE FAILED!

Not having to pull you weapon because you cut through the alley to avoid them IS A WIN.


A firearm on your hip or 1337 ninja skillz shouldn't be an excuse to ignore your instincts or your environment.


True enough, a firearm shouldn't be an excuse to take chances you wouldn't otherwise take, or to go clueless into places you'd normally be apprehensive. Situational awareness is a more basic, and more important, skill than firearms handling or combative self defense. But I don't think anyone is arguing that CCW negates the need to be aware and prudent. Nor is it humanly possible to foresee and avoid every dicey situation out in the world. That alley might be a nice secluded ambush point - and your sudden detour through it the gesture that made the yutes curious enough about your victim status that they pour in after you. That didn't mean it was a bad decision to avoid the crowd of ne'er'do wells. Just that even the best laid plans can go off the rails.


I get what the raccoon is saying, and he makes a good point. Even the pros get caught short sometime (guys coming back from the sandbox can attest to that). My issue is with people who think they won't get their ass beat because they have a CCW or Krav Maga training, and I sense that undertone in some of this thread's posts. I may be reading too much into them, but I do think it's important to stress that training and weapons are not a replacement for situational awareness. Those things will give you an edge when you get stuck in the shit, but avoiding the shit if at all possible is much more appealing than fighting your way out of it.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby Kutter_0311 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:26 am

DarkAxel wrote:avoiding the shit if at all possible is much more appealing than fighting your way out of it.

Hell yeah, it is! The best swords never need to be drawn, for victory was already acheived. Yet, not all fights can be generalled so well. When two great tigers fight, one will be badly hurt. The other will be dead.

(Most of that isn't mine, Sun Tzu and Musashi, I think.)
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby Basil Duke » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:46 am

Utah Zhunter asked how the St. Louis "Knockout" victim is doing. He has returned to work (he's a dishwasher at a South St. Louis City restaurant), and yesterday held a "stop the violence" vigil at the site of his assault. A handful of friends joined him, and both black and white passersby stopped to offer their support. (The victim is white; all of the accused assailants were black middle schoolers.) In the local paper's article on the subject, the victim elaborated on the scene outside the courtroom earlier in the week. According to the victim, one of the released thugs actually strutted up to him and feigned a punch to his (the victim's) face! Outside the courtroom! This sociopath is running the streets at this very moment with his fellow hoodlums.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby zygotesix » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:55 am

This kind of thing really makes me think. I trained in various forms of hand to hand combat (not tae kwon do, either - real martial arts like krav maga and systema) for a dozen years. I've done hours and hours of training for fighting off multiple unarmed assailants. But the way I see it, even with the training I've had, and even if I was ten years younger and in the best shape of my life, if I got knocked out with that first punch, or at least knocked to the ground before I knew what was happening and had 6-10 people kicking and stomping on me, I doubt I could defend myself.

It's one thing to say "I've trained for this, I'd be ok" and another to do it in real life. Training is great but at some point if shit goes south the instructor will tell the attackers to stop. That doesn't happen in real life.

This also makes me realize that I wish I had some sort of actual situational awareness training outside of "look at things and be alert". My dad was a Ranger, and he taught me a lot about these things as a kid, but I doubt it's enough.

Then again I also think that no amount of training is ever "enough", so maybe that's just me.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby curphy » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:23 pm

A year or so ago we had a prison inmate that got the holy hell stabbed out of him. We'd figured that several guys jumped him, but after asking him what his story was, he related that he and two other guys jumped a SINGLE inmate, and the three of them (the assailants) got their asses handed to them :) All of them ended up in the hospital with stab wounds (his were the most serious), and the guy they jumped suffered only minor injuries. All of them had weapons, shivs, what not. It just goes to show you that some people are absolutely ferocious fighters, especially when it's their life on the line.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby squinty » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:44 pm

zygotesix wrote:This kind of thing really makes me think. I trained in various forms of hand to hand combat (not tae kwon do, either - real martial arts like krav maga and systema) for a dozen years. I've done hours and hours of training for fighting off multiple unarmed assailants. But the way I see it, even with the training I've had, and even if I was ten years younger and in the best shape of my life, if I got knocked out with that first punch, or at least knocked to the ground before I knew what was happening and had 6-10 people kicking and stomping on me, I doubt I could defend myself.

It's one thing to say "I've trained for this, I'd be ok" and another to do it in real life. Training is great but at some point if shit goes south the instructor will tell the attackers to stop. That doesn't happen in real life.

This also makes me realize that I wish I had some sort of actual situational awareness training outside of "look at things and be alert". My dad was a Ranger, and he taught me a lot about these things as a kid, but I doubt it's enough.

Then again I also think that no amount of training is ever "enough", so maybe that's just me.


Welp, I agree with this statement:
"Swordsmanship untested in battle is like the art of swimming mastered on land."
-the great actor Tatsuya Nakadai, as Hanshiro Tsugumo in "Hara Kiri"


But I'm not going to go deliberately looking for fights in order to get better fighty skills, anymore than I'd jump into a shark tank to encourage myself to swim better. So training is what we are stuck with, and the bright side is this: if our training is never tested in real battle - Good! We win! Or at least we win if "winning" is defined as "achieving my goal of not dieing from senseless violence." (Why else train in self defense?)

As for situational awareness - try the Marine adage "have a plan to kill everyone you meet." Wait, no, don't actually have a plan to kill everyone you meet - that's psychotic. But as you go through the day and see people in front of you on the sidewalk, beside you at the elevator, a step or two behind you in your peripheral vision etc - just ask yourself, as an exercise, "if this person wanted to hurt me right now, how might they best accomplish it, and how could I best defend against it?" As you go through your day, look at the layout of rooms, at the architecture you pass, and play the same game - "how would someone ambush me from that spot? Where could I go to escape?"

Think back to anytime you were ever attacked, or had reason to fear being attacked. What were you feeling right before the attack happened? Any feelings of foreboding or unease that you discounted right before the attack took place? If so, what prompted those feelings? Did you act on those feelings? If not, what made you disregard those feelings?
If there was no feeling of fear or foreboding before the attack happened, why not? What was occupying your concentration, what made you think you were secure?
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby zygotesix » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:33 pm

Thanks for the advice. I do a fair bit of that on a regular basis but I think I'll make it a priority to force myself to take note of the people around me and not just tactical issues. When I enter buildings I usually figure out the exits, pathing that people take, etc. I notice people I need to notice, but that's generally it. If I actively try to focus on the other people around me hopefully I'll be able to do more than just tell you where the fire exits are when tshtf. :lol:
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby squinty » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:54 pm

zygotesix wrote:Thanks for the advice. I do a fair bit of that on a regular basis but I think I'll make it a priority to force myself to take note of the people around me and not just tactical issues. When I enter buildings I usually figure out the exits, pathing that people take, etc. I notice people I need to notice, but that's generally it. If I actively try to focus on the other people around me hopefully I'll be able to do more than just tell you where the fire exits are when tshtf. :lol:

I should take my own advice. Half the time I can't even find my car keys.
Last night I rolled down a car window to light a sketchy looking stranger's cigarette, at a stoplight outside a bar. Then I drove on, thinking "wtf, Squinty!" I know better than that.

ETA: If you're ok with subtitles and like Samurai movies - or, just movies - check out "Hara Kiri." Best revenge drama ever, it's gorgeously shot, brilliantly acted, has melodrama pathos and intrigue aplenty, annnd a bunch of mofos get sliced up pretty bad at the end.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby zygotesix » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:11 pm

(Sorry to keep going off topic everyone.) That movie looks good, I'll have to see if it's on Netflix. Thanks for the suggestion.

I did some Googling and apparently a lot of people recommend playing a variation of Kim's Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim's_Game) to help improve memory and comprehension. I guess the idea is to get to a point where you can take a quick glance around and mentally inventory the area and people around you. I found a simple version of the game for my ipod and I'm going to give that a try, maybe it will improve my short term memory and recall.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby ODA 226 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:51 pm

zygotesix wrote:This kind of thing really makes me think. I trained in various forms of hand to hand combat (not tae kwon do, either - real martial arts like krav maga and systema) for a dozen years.


I didn't think that Tae Kwon Do was a real martial art either...until I took a kick to the side of my head from a TKD player. Believe me. It hurt really bad and it was REAL.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby zygotesix » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:05 pm

Oh, I'm sure guys who have been studying it for a long time are great at what they do. I took tae kwon do as a kid - like ages 6 to 9 or 10 - and it was great for discipline. But 99 out of 100 times, I'd put money on myself in a straight up fight over a TKD practicioner. Most of them are taught kata and high kicks and other stuff that's completely useless in a self-defense scenario. In Goju Ryu we were taught nerve cluster strikes and joint breaks. Krav Maga is all about disabling the opponent as quickly as possible. Systema is... well, it's Systema. The Russians didn't mess around developing that stuff. It's pretty brutal - eye gouges, pressure point manipulation, nerve and gland striking, joint locking, etc. I also studied Wing Chun for a while, which is personally my favorite hand-to-hand system out there, in terms of self defense. The best outcome of a fight is one where your attacker is neutralized and nobody is hurt too badly (aside from maybe a bruised ego :lol:).

You could pick holes in all fighting styles all day long but at the end of the day I feel that most people who are trained in TKD as it's taught in America aren't really equipped for a real world fight. It's just not a practical style.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby Murph » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:02 pm

How come Krav, Systema, Goju Ryu, TKD, or Wing Chun isn't widely used in MMA?
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby zygotesix » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:32 pm

I'm not entirely sure, but I've seen elements of them while watching MMA fights - although a lot of it overlaps. A lot of MMA goes between boxing, kickboxing, and ground-and-pound (BJJ and the like). When I was younger I used to fight in amateur class mixed martial arts tournaments, and there was a much, much wider range of styles represented. I saw people who trained in everything from capoeira to TKD. The school I trained at focused on Wing Chun, Systema and Thai Kickboxing, with a bit of greco roman wrestling and brazillian jiu-jitsu for ground coverage. If anyone's interested, I trained with Alex Wilkie at his school in central NJ. He's pretty well known in the local scene from what I hear now.

The stuff he taught us was pretty vicious, and I imagine it could get out of hand easily if you weren't really in control of what you were doing. Not exactly the kind of thing you want to use on people when you're fighting "for fun".

Twice a year we were lucky and Vladimir Vaseliev would come down from Canada to do Systema demonstrations, since Alex had trained with him and was a certified teacher. That guy is a monster (and I mean that in the best way possible). He's a shorter guy, with a beer belly, looks like a factory worker, and I saw him take on 4 huge guys in a sparring match and win, like he wasn't even trying. It's incredible what some people can do, but then again he's spent his whole life training in the art form, and teaching it to other people - I believe he was a Spetznaz trainer before the fall of the USSR. Might be wrong about that but his website has his bio on it I'm sure, if anyone's curious.

Short version: While they're ok with arm bars and closed fist strikes in the mainstream MMA tournaments, I doubt they'd be ok with fish-hooking, joint breaking, eye gouging or throat strikes, and a lot of that stuff is covered in Systema, Goju Ryu, etc.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby jamoni » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:34 pm

Murph wrote:How come Krav, Systema, Goju Ryu, TKD, or Wing Chun isn't widely used in MMA?

TKD could EASILY be used in MMA. You'd just have to throw out the stylized hand techniques in favor of dirty boxing, throw in some wrestling and BJJ groundwork, get rid of the high kicks, and you're there!
Oh.
EDIT: WE are WAY off topic. My bad as much as anyone else's. Let's fix that, please.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby zygotesix » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:36 pm

jamoni wrote:
Murph wrote:How come Krav, Systema, Goju Ryu, TKD, or Wing Chun isn't widely used in MMA?

TKD could EASILY be used in MMA. You'd just have to throw out the stylized hand techniques in favor of dirty boxing, throw in some wrestling and BJJ groundwork, get rid of the high kicks, and you're there!
Oh.


The first time I took a class that wasn't TKD, I tried to use a high kick on someone and got kicked in the inner-knee on my weight bearing leg. Never made that mistake again.

I was told later that "if you're kicking above the shin, you're doing it wrong." Words to live by.
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Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby the_alias » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:44 pm

Lol systema.


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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby Redsky » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:39 pm

I'm going with the consensus that being aware of you surroundings is foremost, two having the tools to deal with the situation should it arise and lastly, avoiding the problem altogether is a win in my book.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby jamoni » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:08 pm

Redsky wrote:I'm going with the consensus that being aware of you surroundings is foremost, two having the tools to deal with the situation should it arise and lastly, avoiding the problem altogether is a win in my book.

I had a driving instructor who taught:
1. Awareness: of yourself, your vehicle, and everything around you.
2. Control: both hands on the wheel, adjust speed to account for conditions
3. Airspace: keep your distance from other vehicles, from obstacles, from pedestrians, etc as much as possible, so you have room and time in which to react.

Great rules for driving, but since then I've realized they are excellent rules for ANY defensive situation.
Awareness, control, airspace.
JoergS wrote:Realistically, I think I can launch a nine pound chain saw at 50 fps from a shoulder mounted rubber powered bazooka...

squinty wrote:I reserve the right to yell "Dookyhole!" - or it's Hebrew equivalent if such a thing exists - whilst dispensing a barrage of palm strikes at my opponent.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby fourway » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:37 pm

I tend to think that I have a fairly good handle on situational awareness and good habits around not getting boxed in, thinking about where people around me are and what they are doing, not being an easy target etc... and yet... almost every time I've found myself in an unexpected bad situation my first reaction has been to think that someone was having a laugh on me. Up to and including getting sucker punched by a stranger on the street, having someone try to snatch money out of my hand at an ATM and even being woken up in the wee hours by a masked home invader with a gun in my face... my initial response was to think that someone was putting me on... (it probably doesn't help that I have friends who would do these sorts of things as a joke).
In most cases I've had fairly good outcomes in spite of my weird habit of initial paradoxical response to unexpected violence.

What happened when I got punched in the face very hard by a guy in a hoodie who was calmly walking past me in the other direction is that (because I thought I was being pranked and didn't know yet that I was in a fight) I did my best to banish the stars I was seeing and stay standing up straight and said "you punch like a pussy!" in the most un-rattled clearest voice I could manage as I was turning around. I probably didn't manage to conceal my surprise that it wasn't a friend of mine... but somehow the cognitive dissonance of having my bell rung out of the blue like that lasted a few seconds longer and I remained convinced that it was a gag, so I said "Travis has to be watching... right?" at which point the look of bewilderment on the guy's face finally tipped me off. I think he must have seen me realize what was up because at that point he tried hitting me again. If it had been a group of guys like this new thing I'd probably have been screwed.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby jamoni » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:10 pm

Well, you fight like you train, so if your training is worth a damn, your friends should learn very quickly not to joke with you like that. ;)
JoergS wrote:Realistically, I think I can launch a nine pound chain saw at 50 fps from a shoulder mounted rubber powered bazooka...

squinty wrote:I reserve the right to yell "Dookyhole!" - or it's Hebrew equivalent if such a thing exists - whilst dispensing a barrage of palm strikes at my opponent.
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Re: Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

Postby squinty » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:19 pm

None of my friends would consider punching me hard in the face to be a joke, nor would I treat it as a joking matter.
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