Is it a water pump? Blockage? Radiator? (2002 Subaru WRX)

[williaty]

Well, I still think you have a headgasket leak because you've got the perfect list of symptoms for it. However, internet diagnoses are always a big shaky since I can't hear, smell, see, or feel the car. At this point, your only real choice is to let them do the fix they want to do and then see if it actually cures the problem. I'm betting it won't, but in all things automotive, the only universally correct answer is "It depends...".

Yeah, the 08+ cars are really disappointing compared to the GD-chassis era cars. However, the GD-chassis era cars are very disappointing compared to the GC-chassis era (pre 2002) cars. Each generation, the cars have gotten heavier, more sluggish, and less fun.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Well, I still think you have a headgasket leak because you've got the perfect list of symptoms for it. However, internet diagnoses are always a big shaky since I can't hear, smell, see, or feel the car. At this point, your only real choice is to let them do the fix they want to do and then see if it actually cures the problem. I'm betting it won't, but in all things automotive, the only universally correct answer is "It depends...".

Yeah, the 08+ cars are really disappointing compared to the GD-chassis era cars. However, the GD-chassis era cars are very disappointing compared to the GC-chassis era (pre 2002) cars. Each generation, the cars have gotten heavier, more sluggish, and less fun.

The 2012 STi was a real letdown. I mean, it was nice. But it was like 10,000 dollars less nice than what they wanted for it. It just made me want a Boss 302 Mustang.

I think all that air in the cooling system has to be coming from somewhere. That's why I had them do the thermostat and pressurize the system. That gives them a day to shake it down harder. I'm still not hitting 16 lbs of boost for the past few months, but I think I just lost my reflash because it's hitting the stock 13.5 just fine.

[williaty]

Not hitting target boost also opens the possibility of the seals in the turbo going bad. I don't know wither you hadn't mentioned the boost issue yet or you I just missed it. TD04s aren't long-lived turbos, honestly. If the coolant seals in it are leaking, you'll get bubbles in the cooling system (which produce the symptoms you have) and the turbo will gradually get harder and harder to turn over time, resulting in a reduction in boost. I'd say this is less likely than the HG leak, but the fact that I now know you're not hitting proper boost leads me to at least consider this possibility.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Not hitting target boost also opens the possibility of the seals in the turbo going bad. I don't know wither you hadn't mentioned the boost issue yet or you I just missed it. TD04s aren't long-lived turbos, honestly. If the coolant seals in it are leaking, you'll get bubbles in the cooling system (which produce the symptoms you have) and the turbo will gradually get harder and harder to turn over time, resulting in a reduction in boost. I'd say this is less likely than the HG leak, but the fact that I now know you're not hitting proper boost leads me to at least consider this possibility.

Hmm. I think I'd be more worried if my turbo wasn't hitting stock boost exactly at WOT, which it is, but I'ma be sure to check to see if Deadbolt does their rebuild/port/polish of the TD04 turbo anyway.

EDIT: Looks like they don't. Can't find the website anymore.

[williaty]

Quite a few turbo specialty shops bit it in the last recession. Turbos are a luxury item unless you're servicing GIANT ones for buses and ships.

If the car is programed with the correct wastegate duty cycles to run whatever your target boost is, and suddenly it's running less than target boost, that's a problem even if it's still making more than stock boost. When a car is programed with WGDCs that have been correct for a long time and suddenly the ECU has to increase the WGDC, or it maxes out the allowable WGDC increase and still can't make target boost, that indicates that something has physically gone wrong with the system and the efficiency of the turbo has changed.

In fact, since you have a Stage II tune in there, the fact that you have a catless uppipe and a catless downpipe would make you have MORE boost, not less, if you accidentally removed your Stage II tune with the accessport and were running a stock ROM.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Quite a few turbo specialty shops bit it in the last recession. Turbos are a luxury item unless you're servicing GIANT ones for buses and ships.

If the car is programed with the correct wastegate duty cycles to run whatever your target boost is, and suddenly it's running less than target boost, that's a problem even if it's still making more than stock boost. When a car is programed with WGDCs that have been correct for a long time and suddenly the ECU has to increase the WGDC, or it maxes out the allowable WGDC increase and still can't make target boost, that indicates that something has physically gone wrong with the system and the efficiency of the turbo has changed.

In fact, since you have a Stage II tune in there, the fact that you have a catless uppipe and a catless downpipe would make you have MORE boost, not less, if you accidentally removed your Stage II tune with the accessport and were running a stock ROM.

If it reverted to a stock flash though wouldn't the wastegate re-set to 13.5 lbs? That's exactly what it's hitting now.

[williaty]

Only if you have all-stock hardware on the car. If you have Stage II hardware, which you said you did, then, no, the stock WGDC tables would actually cause the car to run WAY more than stock boost.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Only if you have all-stock hardware on the car. If you have Stage II hardware, which you said you did, then, no, the stock WGDC tables would actually cause the car to run WAY more than stock boost.

That's weird. I ran a catless uppipe and full exhaust for years before getting an AccesPORT. Always hit 13.5 exactly, just like now.

[williaty]

It is extremely unusual that you got away with that. Basically everyone who tries it has boost spiking issues.

[Vicarious_Lee]

It is extremely unusual that you got away with that. Basically everyone who tries it has boost spiking issues.

Now that you mention it, I definitely remember not having boost spikes, because I was told to look for them. Oh well, guess I need a new turbo as well. We'll see what tomorrow brings. I'm so out of the loop I don't even know what a good, affordable turbo setup would be for me. I'll ask the mechanic what he thinks of it. I guess I could be losing coolant that way.

[williaty]

Best "cheap" turbo for your hardware is the HTA68. Cheaper than a new TD04, better spool, better flow.

However, don't jump before they tell you what's for-sure wrong. Don't replace the turbo because it *might* be bad.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Best "cheap" turbo for your hardware is the HTA68. Cheaper than a new TD04, better spool, better flow.

However, don't jump before they tell you what's for-sure wrong. Don't replace the turbo because it *might* be bad.

Jesus Christ! I looked that up and besides requiring IC, fuel pump, injectors, and tune along with it, people are putting down over 350 at the wheels! I was thinking of working toward 350 at the crank. She's still my daily driver.

I keep hearing that the VF39s, 16gs, and there's some hybrid rebuilt TD04-19T out there from blouch. I can't find anyone that rebuilds and upgrades the TD04s like Deadbolt did before the owner took ill recently.

Guess I could just find a barely-used TD04 for 200 bucks.....

Well see what tomorrow brings. What also sucks ifs that if I need a new radiator, my choices are pretty much limited to stock since I have a 4EAT auto that needs the integral cooler, but the mechanic said that Subaru upgraded the part recently.

ETA: ah, Koyo makes one now!

[williaty]

Koyorad and Mishimoto both make direct-fit replacements for the stock radiator. In fact, I'm 99% sure that the Koyorad is the stock radiator.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Welp, this little experience has been every bit as disappointing, unsatisfying, and unenlightening as the last time I ever set foot in a Bourbon Street strip club, except this has been far more expensive.

Will, far as I can tell, this whole thing was because I was an ass and never checked the overflow tank for like, a year. The car just slowly ran dry until it started sucking bubbles. Then, I drained all the coolant checking the thermostat and couldn't get the system burped out right.

So I fuck up my alignment getting it towed (using dollys on the front wheels, of course) to the dealership, where Dummy McGivafuck replaces my thermostat that I already took out and checked with a new one (because the old one wasn't broken). However, he's got the tools to properly fill the system. I get my car back this afternoon and just spent the last 45 minutes thrashing it.

Every noise, gauge reading, twitch, and rumble is exactly as it should be, except that it's somehow reverted to the stock tune and is dutifully hitting 13.5 lbs of boost whenever I ask it to.

This is why I'm known as the FML Mechanic. There's another message board with a series of writeups called "Lee's Mechanical Mishaps".

I'd get pats on the back for only fucking up a little bit.

I hate taking my car to the mechanic. Just like fucking doctors: You're either gonna leave knowing you were sicker than you thought, or not knowing anything at all, you're gonna get tests that won't tell you anything run on you, and the only thing you can be certain of is you're gonna be out a bunch of money.

Can't thank you enough for the advice, Will. If I decide to do TGV deletes I will certainly hit you up for them.

[congochris]

Lee, don't feel too bad. I spent a stupid amount of time and money trying to troubleshoot an overheating problem on my Ranger before I finally gave up and decided to replace the stock dash gauge with an aftermarket gauge that hat numbers and stuff and figured out the dash gauge itself was pooched.

Seriously, three thermostats (successively lower temp) water pump (luckily in-warranty replacement on the part) the temp sensor, flush and fill kit, two or three flush and fills amongst the replacements, larger replacement radiator from a 4.0...

And we won't even get into the intermittent "limp mode" issue that I thought was due to overheating and ended up finally being figured out as a lack of engine to chassis ground of any kind on the damn thing. Intermittent thanks eventually to the aftermarket temp gauge that kept arcing to the dash randomly and grounding the engine, sparking and scaring bejeezus out of me (wow, better move that, that's dangerous!) and then limp mode beginning again... I've wondered if what toasted the dash gauge (temp and gas) wasn't the engine trying to ground through them.



So yeah. Automotively, you seem to have luck like mine.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Lee, don't feel too bad. I spent a stupid amount of time and money trying to troubleshoot an overheating problem on my Ranger before I finally gave up and decided to replace the stock dash gauge with an aftermarket gauge that hat numbers and stuff and figured out the dash gauge itself was pooched.

Seriously, three thermostats (successively lower temp) water pump (luckily in-warranty replacement on the part) the temp sensor, flush and fill kit, two or three flush and fills amongst the replacements, larger replacement radiator from a 4.0...

And we won't even get into the intermittent "limp mode" issue that I thought was due to overheating and ended up finally being figured out as a lack of engine to chassis ground of any kind on the damn thing. Intermittent thanks eventually to the aftermarket temp gauge that kept arcing to the dash randomly and grounding the engine, sparking and scaring bejeezus out of me (wow, better move that, that's dangerous!) and then limp mode beginning again... I've wondered if what toasted the dash gauge (temp and gas) wasn't the engine trying to ground through them.



So yeah. Automotively, you seem to have luck like mine.

Dude I've never owned a Ford Ranger, but if I did it'd be like that.

[Braxton]

So I fuck up my alignment getting it towed (using dollys on the front wheels, of course) to the dealership,

WHAT THE FUCK?

They did not use a flatbed? They used dollys? On a WRX?

[williaty]

Will, far as I can tell, this whole thing was because I was an ass and never checked the overflow tank for like, a year. The car just slowly ran dry until it started sucking bubbles. Then, I drained all the coolant checking the thermostat and couldn't get the system burped out right.

Definitely getting it burped can be a bitch if you don't have a lot of practice doing it.

However, I don't buy it that the start of this whole problem was the fact that you didn't check the coolant overflow. A properly functioning WRX will make it from one 30,000 service to the next (coolant has to be replaced every 30k) without any attention to the coolant overflow level. In fact, I can't say I've ever seen a healthy WRX come back to the shop for the next service with the coolant overflow tank level being even half an inch different than where I filled it. If the tank went dry, that means the coolant was going somewhere not normal. The real question is wither is going somewhere you don't have to give a crap about (small seep at a hose clamp, for example) or wither it's going somewhere that will eventually bite you in the ass. Only time will tell.

[Vicarious_Lee]

So I fuck up my alignment getting it towed (using dollys on the front wheels, of course) to the dealership,

WHAT THE FUCK?

They did not use a flatbed? They used dollys? On a WRX?

This is why I don't let anyone fuck with my car ever, unless it's absolutely necessary. An I'm exaggerating. My car's had a tendency to negative-camber the driver front wheel for years now. It's not back to where it was before. She drives fine.

The real question is wither is going somewhere you don't have to give a crap about (small seep at a hose clamp, for example) or wither it's going somewhere that will eventually bite you in the ass. Only time will tell.

LOL more ominous music in the background, please.

Well, I'd always been told that the cooling turbo evaporates a little fluid when the car is shut off. My car's been needing a cup or two a few times a year for several years now. I could have a radiator about to go, as that's pretty common with WRX-es. I've been told I had a slow leak years ago, but it was by a retard at a lube shop who didn't know what he was talking about.

If anything, it's the radiator. The car just runs to normal, even at WOT, for there to be a serious leak in the HG.

Though you make me want to get a water temp gauge. Hell, and oil pressure and tranny temp as well.

[williaty]

If it's been consuming coolant for a long time, then you probably don't need to worry about it. If it were a big issue, the engine would be dead by now. This is why I gave the first disclaimer about not being your mechanic at the very beginning. Without a normal, face-to-face conversation, it's pretty hard to make sure the entire history of the car is conveyed. However, hopefully you got out of it without as much harm as if you'd gone to a shady shop that would have raped you.

Also, the coolant doesn't evaporate because of cooling the turbo post-shutdown. Due to the positioning of the upper coolant tank relative to the turbo coolant inflow and outflow, natural convection continues to slowly cycle coolant through the turbo until the turbo cools off. This is why Subarus don't need turbo timers like many imports do. The downside to the arrangement is that it's kind of a bitch to purge of air if you don't have the technique down.

[williaty]

Oh, oil temp (HUGELY important), water temp (fairly important), and (for you) ATF temp would be very good gauges to have. Oil pressure is pretty useless.

[Vicarious_Lee]

The downside to the arrangement is that it's kind of a bitch to purge of air if you don't have the technique down.

Tell me about it.

From what I can see, now that I got the coolant filled up proper, the car (other than losing it's stage 2 programming) is behaving exactly as it always has. Perhaps a new radiator is in order, but I'm glad that this wasn't a freak thing where my HG was blown but the engine was acting fine and the oil and coolant wasn't contaminated.

I honestly had no idea the fact that I was told years ago I had a slow leak, and that I've been adding coolant to the overflow tank maybe 3 times a year for the last 3-4 years was a thing. I thought that's what they did because of the turbo cooling effect.

I relate to your frustrations and your "Well SHIT why didn't you mention that eariler!??!?!" and "UUUHHHH, I didn't think it was important....." more than you know.

Thanks again, and if my motor pops or any new developments I'll add it in this thread.

[williaty]

The downside to the arrangement is that it's kind of a bitch to purge of air if you don't have the technique down.

Tell me about it.

From what I can see, now that I got the coolant filled up proper, the car (other than losing it's stage 2 programming) is behaving exactly as it always has. Perhaps a new radiator is in order, but I'm glad that this wasn't a freak thing where my HG was blown but the engine was acting fine and the oil and coolant wasn't contaminated.

I honestly had no idea the fact that I was told years ago I had a slow leak, and that I've been adding coolant to the overflow tank maybe 3 times a year for the last 3-4 years was a thing. I thought that's what they did because of the turbo cooling effect.

I relate to your frustrations and your "Well SHIT why didn't you mention that eariler!??!?!" and "UUUHHHH, I didn't think it was important....." more than you know.

Thanks again, and if my motor pops or any new developments I'll add it in this thread.

No worries. You just managed to replicate the symptoms of the most common major failure of Subarus (HGs) through benign means

[Vicarious_Lee]

Drove the shit out of her this morning and got pancake smoke briefly (temps never changed). Radiator's full, though, so I think I may have just displaced some spilled leftover coolant somewhere in the engine bay with cornering and braking.

We'll see.