All Things Permaculture.

[Shaper]

Are you a ZS Permie? If so, I'm calling you out!

I am starting this thread in the hopes that we could have a consolidated place to discuss all things permaculture. I searched the few threads referring to this "science" (best word I can come up with since "technique" seems so limited) but only found bits and pieces, and mostly recommendations to the literature here.

Tips, tricks, techniques, personal experiences, tutorials, and good old fashion Permaculture porn are all invited.

I personally grew up in the country where it was common place to garden, fish, and farm, but only recently have I stumbled upon this wonderful world. I am now in a "school" where I have amassed a great deal of Permaculture literature, design course dvds, and other media. I now allot myself at least an hour a day (and sometimes a great deal more) to learn all I can about these processes.

I must say that I am hooked, and I think I have honestly found my calling. Right now I am still green around the ears but I am learning more each day. The hands on has started, albeit slow and intermittent (work, money, season and all) but I am hitting it hard and heavy come this spring! My next project (hopefully this month) is a budget compost bin which I will document and post here in due time.

Anyone have any projects they are working on currently, pics of past projects, or any recent first hand knowledge they would like to share?

[thelight]

I'm currently in a Permaculture Design Course in MA. In fact, I will be graduating and getting my certificate this weekend. My final project is on a water catchment system used for drip irrigation of terraced grow beds. The runoff from the system then feeds into a terraced pond system which will hopefully have fish and natural filtration.

I've got a lot more, but have to jump into a meeting.

[Shaper]

I'm currently in a Permaculture Design Course in MA. In fact, I will be graduating and getting my certificate this weekend. My final project is on a water catchment system used for drip irrigation of terraced grow beds. The runoff from the system then feeds into a terraced pond system which will hopefully have fish and natural filtration.

I've got a lot more, but have to jump into a meeting.

That's awesome! I hope to do a design course with either Bill or Geoff one day that is for certain. I would love to see some pics and/or some more explanation of the processes that you are using/studying for that project!

[thelight]

I'm currently in a Permaculture Design Course in MA. In fact, I will be graduating and getting my certificate this weekend. My final project is on a water catchment system used for drip irrigation of terraced grow beds. The runoff from the system then feeds into a terraced pond system which will hopefully have fish and natural filtration.

I've got a lot more, but have to jump into a meeting.

That's awesome! I hope to do a design course with either Bill or Geoff one day that is for certain. I would love to see some pics and/or some more explanation of the processes that you are using/studying for that project!

Bill and Geoff still do courses, but man are they expensive and few & far in between. There is a whole network of people out there who are very capable of teaching you in a quality PDC. If you want to learn the skills and principles, do the research on the instructors in your area and go for the best course you can find. I know Sepp Holtzer's coming in to Montanna soon. Maybe you could get in on his class and meet Jack Spirko of the survival podcast while you're at it! Then again... the quality of the education might not be the best when you've got a huge crowd.

I'll grab some pics of the site this weekend. We've had classes on a variety of subjects and have been following the "official" lesson plan of PDCs everywhere... Permaculture: A Designers' Manual. That's the original book and what most classes teach from. It's huge and dense, more like a college textbook than anything else. It goes into a lot of detail and would be very valuable to have on your designers bookshelf.

Mary Johnson is the lady giving the course up in MA and she's had a lot of experience with urban and tropical permaculture. She also tapped some local resources, like Eric Toensmeier, to teach specific sections of the class. Eric litterally wrote the books on Edible Forest Gardens. We got to tour his suburban backyard garden and it was a really cool experience to see how he interweaved everything in such a small space. We've also worked on keyline irrigation systems, soil analysis and improvement, guilds and guild plantings, land surveying, water catchment in swales... the list goes on and on. The nice thing about the PDC is that you not only read and learn about the topics, but get a chance to put them into practice. Let me tell you, digging even a small pond by hand is a PITA!

[thelight]

Well, I'm now officially a Permaculture Designer.

Also had a bit of an adventure this weekend. One of the guys taking the course with me sliced his hand when a coffee pot broke. It was a clean, deep, slice going almost to the bone. Thankfully I had my kit and patched him up so he could make it home without much issue. At the hospital he got 4 stitches and a complement on his bandaging job.

[Shaper]

Well, I'm now officially a Permaculture Designer.

Also had a bit of an adventure this weekend. One of the guys taking the course with me sliced his hand when a coffee pot broke. It was a clean, deep, slice going almost to the bone. Thankfully I had my kit and patched him up so he could make it home without much issue. At the hospital he got 4 stitches and a complement on his bandaging job.

Great job on getting certified! (and the bonus patch work ...Do you mind if I ask how much your course cost and how long it was? I have found a few designers in the area who were certified by Mollison so I am trying to get an idea of the money I need to put back and the time I need to allot for leave. Thanks, and congrats again!

[thelight]

Thanks!

My course was a "72 hour" course. However we got a lot more time out of it. Five weekend sessions spread out over 5 months, three sessions were two days, and two were three days. The courses are usually offered on a sliding scale. I paid about $1k for mine, and that was the low end of the scale. Most courses also offer work/trade programs where you can get a discount by putting in sweat equity.

Typically the courses are 5 or 7 days, continuous, and cost $1-2 grand. But... you can often find deals. The main concern is always the quality of the instructor. Make sure you get other opinions of them before you shell out that kind of money! Also, if you're paying that much, you should be getting some guest lecturers and plenty of hands on activities.

[Shaper]

Thanks!

My course was a "72 hour" course. However we got a lot more time out of it. Five weekend sessions spread out over 5 months, three sessions were two days, and two were three days. The courses are usually offered on a sliding scale. I paid about $1k for mine, and that was the low end of the scale. Most courses also offer work/trade programs where you can get a discount by putting in sweat equity.

Typically the courses are 5 or 7 days, continuous, and cost $1-2 grand. But... you can often find deals. The main concern is always the quality of the instructor. Make sure you get other opinions of them before you shell out that kind of money! Also, if you're paying that much, you should be getting some guest lecturers and plenty of hands on activities.

Great info, thanks man! My goal at this point is to be pretty well versed in most of the "book work" and even some of the hands on (this winter, I am planning compost, vermiculture, "instant" garden beds a' la Lawton, and starting rabbits for meat, manure, and then angora fur, then hopefully chickens this spring.)

I am also talking with a friend who wants to foodscape his back yard, so I am hoping he pulls the trigger and gives me a call so we could at least get most of the earth works done with a overwinter N-fix cover crop started before it gets too cold.

[AdLucem]

I read some excerpts from Bill Mollison's bible so to speak on Permaculture, still picking up more and more knowledge every time
Also in the process of watching another's video release of an Intro to Permaculture...

One of the most important things I picked up from my readings is the importance of placement by the 1-5 zones expanding away from the home in order of visitation and importance. While that may not always be feasible depending upon your property lines and current home placement, it is an excellent thing to consider. Also, the science has made many connections that I am starting to put together such as keeping chickens near your orchards for a symbiotic relationship.

If you are serious about learning Permaculture, check out this online course offered free to view from North Carolina State University: I have been through quite a few of these episodes but it is always good to refresh to absorb info...

http://mediasite.online.ncsu.edu/online/Catalog/pages/catalog.aspx?catalogId=f5a893e7-4b7c-4b79-80fd-52dcd1ced715

Also, not anything against ZS, but if you are looking for some expert permaculture advice, check out the forums at http://www.permies.com/

Good luck! The world needs more people like us trying to learn about sustainable agriculture and lifestyles!

[Shaper]

I read some excerpts from Bill Mollison's bible so to speak on Permaculture, still picking up more and more knowledge every time
Also in the process of watching another's video release of an Intro to Permaculture...

One of the most important things I picked up from my readings is the importance of placement by the 1-5 zones expanding away from the home in order of visitation and importance. While that may not always be feasible depending upon your property lines and current home placement, it is an excellent thing to consider. Also, the science has made many connections that I am starting to put together such as keeping chickens near your orchards for a symbiotic relationship.

If you are serious about learning Permaculture, check out this online course offered free to view from North Carolina State University: I have been through quite a few of these episodes but it is always good to refresh to absorb info...

http://mediasite.online.ncsu.edu/online/Catalog/pages/catalog.aspx?catalogId=f5a893e7-4b7c-4b79-80fd-52dcd1ced715

Also, not anything against ZS, but if you are looking for some expert permaculture advice, check out the forums at http://www.permies.com/

Good luck! The world needs more people like us trying to learn about sustainable agriculture and lifestyles!

That NCSU link is freaking tits!!! Thanks!

I have been browsing Permies for a while now and have grabbed a few gems..but as of now I am getting much more from the Bill and Geoff DVD's and books. I am hoping as my experience expands I can have some more definitive questions to ask on there.

Zoning, to me, seems to be a common sense approach based on the terrain, elements used on the site, prevailing winds, water sources/sinks available, regional climate, etc. The light bulb turned on once Geoff showed that the Zones were not static and concentric circles in practice, and drew various terrain based examples with some even showing the absence of certain zones. I think I understand them on a pretty fundamental level at this point.

I can't wait to put in the work now!

[giroux68]

Permies.com is a great site and is where i found Zombies! Gaia's Garden is a great book to get started on with. The permiculture way of growing is the way to go. I have a guilded group of apple trees and am starting on the food forest with mulberries, pecans, wallnuts, gogiberries. Rabbits are in the future and chicken or duckks. Glad to see this being discussed here too.

[giroux68]

Permies.com is a great site and is where i found Zombies! Gaia's Garden is a great book to get started on with. The permiculture way of growing is the way to go. I have a guilded group of apple trees and am starting on the food forest with mulberries, pecans, wallnuts, gogiberries. Rabbits are in the future and chicken or duckks. Glad to see this being discussed here too.

[strangetales]

My husband and I have a running joke - as we are driving down the street and I see dead leaves piled up on the sidewalks or in the street I say, "Follow us home! Or better yet, meet us there!" Wasted nutrients, what a shame.

[Collie of Doom]

I do want to get into this, but I'm a renter. Landylady might not appreciate it. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to buy a place. I know prices are favorable but it seems that a week doesn't go by at work without a coworker coming in with a nightmare story about the roof leaking, the hot water heater blowing up, some sinkhole opening up in the driveway, a tree falling on the garage, etc. Hearing that all the time, I appreciate that when my bathroom sink breaks, I call the plumber. The plumber does his job and goes home. The bill goes straight to the Landlady. Ah, that is the life. I'll stick to container gardening.

[Shaper]

I do want to get into this, but I'm a renter. Landylady might not appreciate it. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to buy a place. I know prices are favorable but it seems that a week doesn't go by at work without a coworker coming in with a nightmare story about the roof leaking, the hot water heater blowing up, some sinkhole opening up in the driveway, a tree falling on the garage, etc. Hearing that all the time, I appreciate that when my bathroom sink breaks, I call the plumber. The plumber does his job and goes home. The bill goes straight to the Landlady. Ah, that is the life. I'll stick to container gardening.

Well two things...

You could rent a place with a small yard with the understanding that it will be used for "gardening" (thats waht we are doing now actually as we save for our land) or you could build custom raised beds (think large container gardens) and use many of same techniques used in large scale Permaculture (i.e. companion planting, no dig/till beds, zone planting, site orientation, vermiculture/composting, etc. etc.) You see this quite a bit now in sub/urban areas where space is limited. Limited space is very easy to overcome with a little but of innovation and planning.

ETA: I saw a vid not too long ago of a couple who did a garden on their old fire escape platform (no longer in use for fires) and in that small space they grew enough fruit and veggies to cover their needs each year. They made great use of vertical space and stacking (both time and horizontal space) They even had fresh picked salads from the garden every lunch and dinner during the growing season.

[Collie of Doom]

I do want to get into this, but I'm a renter. Landylady might not appreciate it. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to buy a place. I know prices are favorable but it seems that a week doesn't go by at work without a coworker coming in with a nightmare story about the roof leaking, the hot water heater blowing up, some sinkhole opening up in the driveway, a tree falling on the garage, etc. Hearing that all the time, I appreciate that when my bathroom sink breaks, I call the plumber. The plumber does his job and goes home. The bill goes straight to the Landlady. Ah, that is the life. I'll stick to container gardening.

Well two things...

You could rent a place with a small yard with the understanding that it will be used for "gardening" (thats waht we are doing now actually as we save for our land) or you could build custom raised beds (think large container gardens) and use many of same techniques used in large scale Permaculture (i.e. companion planting, no dig/till beds, zone planting, site orientation, vermiculture/composting, etc. etc.) You see this quite a bit now in sub/urban areas where space is limited. Limited space is very easy to overcome with a little but of innovation and planning.

ETA: I saw a vid not too long ago of a couple who did a garden on their old fire escape platform (no longer in use for fires) and in that small space they grew enough fruit and veggies to cover their needs each year. They made great use of vertical space and stacking (both time and horizontal space) They even had fresh picked salads from the garden every lunch and dinner during the growing season.

I have read about the raised beds. I should do that this year. It's easy enough to break apart at the end of a lease if the Landlady isn't a fan (she might not even care.) Last tenant left a pile of assorted lumber which really does need to be dragged to the curb if it is not used. It is far too hot and dry here in the summer, and that's a fire hazard. I think the raised beds, if lined right, should retain more moisture than planting straight into the ground anyway. You give me much food for thought. . . The fire escape story is wild...

[Shaper]

I do want to get into this, but I'm a renter. Landylady might not appreciate it. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to buy a place. I know prices are favorable but it seems that a week doesn't go by at work without a coworker coming in with a nightmare story about the roof leaking, the hot water heater blowing up, some sinkhole opening up in the driveway, a tree falling on the garage, etc. Hearing that all the time, I appreciate that when my bathroom sink breaks, I call the plumber. The plumber does his job and goes home. The bill goes straight to the Landlady. Ah, that is the life. I'll stick to container gardening.

Well two things...

You could rent a place with a small yard with the understanding that it will be used for "gardening" (thats waht we are doing now actually as we save for our land) or you could build custom raised beds (think large container gardens) and use many of same techniques used in large scale Permaculture (i.e. companion planting, no dig/till beds, zone planting, site orientation, vermiculture/composting, etc. etc.) You see this quite a bit now in sub/urban areas where space is limited. Limited space is very easy to overcome with a little but of innovation and planning.

ETA: I saw a vid not too long ago of a couple who did a garden on their old fire escape platform (no longer in use for fires) and in that small space they grew enough fruit and veggies to cover their needs each year. They made great use of vertical space and stacking (both time and horizontal space) They even had fresh picked salads from the garden every lunch and dinner during the growing season.

I have read about the raised beds. I should do that this year. It's easy enough to break apart at the end of a lease if the Landlady isn't a fan (she might not even care.) Last tenant left a pile of assorted lumber which really does need to be dragged to the curb if it is not used. It is far too hot and dry here in the summer, and that's a fire hazard. I think the raised beds, if lined right, should retain more moisture than planting straight into the ground anyway. You give me much food for thought. . . The fire escape story is wild...

You mind if I ask where you are? Just curious about your climate...

And yes, it is easier to keep a moisture rich soil, however you do not want to line it with anything (with a possible exception if you are in a desert climate) or you risk drowning your plants in many instances.

By creating a raised bed, you will essentially create a micro-climate of interactive and mutually beneficial plants that will help keep rainfall above evaporation (i.e. avoid drought-like stress conditions) and make use of various pant species to draw water and nutrients up through the soil to each companion plant by utilizing various root depths, levels, along with plant proximity and orientation.

You can also assist the capillary action of your raised beds by using a method (that I actually first heard about here funny enough) called "hugelkulture" which places large natural wood logs and woody brush inside the beds to provide space for root growth, water transfer, as well as compost and nutrients though the decomposition of the wood below the soil surface.

Good luck, and post here with your progress!

[Collie of Doom]

I do want to get into this, but I'm a renter. Landylady might not appreciate it. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to buy a place. I know prices are favorable but it seems that a week doesn't go by at work without a coworker coming in with a nightmare story about the roof leaking, the hot water heater blowing up, some sinkhole opening up in the driveway, a tree falling on the garage, etc. Hearing that all the time, I appreciate that when my bathroom sink breaks, I call the plumber. The plumber does his job and goes home. The bill goes straight to the Landlady. Ah, that is the life. I'll stick to container gardening.

Well two things...

You could rent a place with a small yard with the understanding that it will be used for "gardening" (thats waht we are doing now actually as we save for our land) or you could build custom raised beds (think large container gardens) and use many of same techniques used in large scale Permaculture (i.e. companion planting, no dig/till beds, zone planting, site orientation, vermiculture/composting, etc. etc.) You see this quite a bit now in sub/urban areas where space is limited. Limited space is very easy to overcome with a little but of innovation and planning.

ETA: I saw a vid not too long ago of a couple who did a garden on their old fire escape platform (no longer in use for fires) and in that small space they grew enough fruit and veggies to cover their needs each year. They made great use of vertical space and stacking (both time and horizontal space) They even had fresh picked salads from the garden every lunch and dinner during the growing season.

I have read about the raised beds. I should do that this year. It's easy enough to break apart at the end of a lease if the Landlady isn't a fan (she might not even care.) Last tenant left a pile of assorted lumber which really does need to be dragged to the curb if it is not used. It is far too hot and dry here in the summer, and that's a fire hazard. I think the raised beds, if lined right, should retain more moisture than planting straight into the ground anyway. You give me much food for thought. . . The fire escape story is wild...

You mind if I ask where you are? Just curious about your climate...

And yes, it is easier to keep a moisture rich soil, however you do not want to line it with anything (with a possible exception if you are in a desert climate) or you risk drowning your plants in many instances.

By creating a raised bed, you will essentially create a micro-climate of interactive and mutually beneficial plants that will help keep rainfall above evaporation (i.e. avoid drought-like stress conditions) and make use of various pant species to draw water and nutrients up through the soil to each companion plant by utilizing various root depths, levels, along with plant proximity and orientation.

You can also assist the capillary action of your raised beds by using a method (that I actually first heard about here funny enough) called "hugelkulture" which places large natural wood logs and woody brush inside the beds to provide space for root growth, water transfer, as well as compost and nutrients though the decomposition of the wood below the soil surface.

Good luck, and post here with your progress!

Let's just say close to Mexico, and a place where it didn't rain for 6 months this past summer. It's not quite desert here but it's dry. Hugelkultur is fun to say. Thanks for the tips.

[Shaper]

I do want to get into this, but I'm a renter. Landylady might not appreciate it. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to buy a place. I know prices are favorable but it seems that a week doesn't go by at work without a coworker coming in with a nightmare story about the roof leaking, the hot water heater blowing up, some sinkhole opening up in the driveway, a tree falling on the garage, etc. Hearing that all the time, I appreciate that when my bathroom sink breaks, I call the plumber. The plumber does his job and goes home. The bill goes straight to the Landlady. Ah, that is the life. I'll stick to container gardening.

Well two things...

You could rent a place with a small yard with the understanding that it will be used for "gardening" (thats waht we are doing now actually as we save for our land) or you could build custom raised beds (think large container gardens) and use many of same techniques used in large scale Permaculture (i.e. companion planting, no dig/till beds, zone planting, site orientation, vermiculture/composting, etc. etc.) You see this quite a bit now in sub/urban areas where space is limited. Limited space is very easy to overcome with a little but of innovation and planning.

ETA: I saw a vid not too long ago of a couple who did a garden on their old fire escape platform (no longer in use for fires) and in that small space they grew enough fruit and veggies to cover their needs each year. They made great use of vertical space and stacking (both time and horizontal space) They even had fresh picked salads from the garden every lunch and dinner during the growing season.

I have read about the raised beds. I should do that this year. It's easy enough to break apart at the end of a lease if the Landlady isn't a fan (she might not even care.) Last tenant left a pile of assorted lumber which really does need to be dragged to the curb if it is not used. It is far too hot and dry here in the summer, and that's a fire hazard. I think the raised beds, if lined right, should retain more moisture than planting straight into the ground anyway. You give me much food for thought. . . The fire escape story is wild...

After reading this post again, I felt the need to mention that if your pile of wood contains pressure treated lumber I would probably advise against using it in raised beds that you will use for any topical or ingestible plant. PTL is soaked in chromated copper arsenate to prevent rot.

The copper, chromium, and arsenic, will gradually leech into your soil creating a toxic environment. How much of these compounds get into your plants is a mystery to me, but I wouldn't risk it myself. Just a fair warning to for ya.

[Jeriah]

Right now we live in an apartment, so we have no outdoor planting space. We put some plants (tomatoes, herbs, and sometimes try a melon or cucumber) in pots on the porch, but it's really too small and doesn't get enough sun. I do have a nice little pineapple plantation in flowerpots on my windowsill, though. They're too small to make fruit yet, but someday...anyway, due to apartment living, it's all at the hobby/play level, not actually productive really. But we do have a worm bin, that's been working since 2008, so we throw away basically zero food scraps. That counts, right?

[Shaper]

Right now we live in an apartment, so we have no outdoor planting space. We put some plants (tomatoes, herbs, and sometimes try a melon or cucumber) in pots on the porch, but it's really too small and doesn't get enough sun. I do have a nice little pineapple plantation in flowerpots on my windowsill, though. They're too small to make fruit yet, but someday...anyway, due to apartment living, it's all at the hobby/play level, not actually productive really. But we do have a worm bin, that's been working since 2008, so we throw away basically zero food scraps. That counts, right?

Hey man, any amount of practice or production you get now will serve you at a later date when an opportunity presents itself.

Are you in a high-rise or similar style...I am willing to bet there is something you can do to expand. Maybe window boxes/trellis/lattice?...I would have to see the site to get some ideas.

[44Dave]

I bought a house a few months ago with plenty of room to garden - I'm very interested in incorporating permaculture ideas and techniques into my gardening.
I'm going to start with the usual raised beds and water catchment system for irrigation. We planted a decorative patch in the fall already (transplanted plants from the old house) and tried to arrange things using the keyhole pattern. We'll see how it turns out.
I'm just waiting now for the weather to turn back into spring so I can start working outside.

[Shaper]

I bought a house a few months ago with plenty of room to garden - I'm very interested in incorporating permaculture ideas and techniques into my gardening.
I'm going to start with the usual raised beds and water catchment system for irrigation. We planted a decorative patch in the fall already (transplanted plants from the old house) and tried to arrange things using the keyhole pattern. We'll see how it turns out.
I'm just waiting now for the weather to turn back into spring so I can start working outside.

I am impatient as well! There are still some things we can do in the colder months to feed the gardening need...

Build/repair/improve garden related structures

Build/expand/enhance our vermiculture and compost bins

Prune/Pollard/Coppice/Transplant any woody pants or trees

Put down kill mulch over a new or existing garden bed

Sharpen/condition your garden tools

Build a hoop house for an early start on the growing season

Earthworks (or hand build mini-earthworks if the ground isnt frozen)

Build housing/microclimates for all of the good critters you want in your garden (birds, bats, bees, butterflies) Feed your birds in the winter

Order your heirloom seeds online now and you can get some good off-season deals

Get, salvage, or make all of your consumables like twine, stakes, cages, netting, labels, etc.

And so much more!

[Shaper]

LMFAO! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjc0wcOX ... r_embedded

Spring is coming!