Legal Open Carry Threatened by Cop

[DannusMaximus]

Dan,
It is the responsibility of the DISPATCHER to determine if a crime is currently being committed and if there is a JUSTIFIABLE CAUSE to send a Deputy to the caller's location. If a crime is NOT in progress, the dispatcher has the RESPONSIBILITY NOT to send a Deputy to that call.

Concur, and in a perfect world this screening would work 100% of the time. I think there is a difference between what you originally said and your example, though. An officer that is dispatched has a duty to respond. An officer that is not dispatched...well, they probably won't respond to an incident they're never dispatched to. You're used to dealing with incomplete information, most 911 calls have very incomplete information. The example you gave is pretty black and white. Here (in my opinion) is a more common example:

Caller: "I just saw a man with a gun walk into the 711!"
911: "Okay, sir, can you tell what the man was doing?"
Caller: "Hell no! He's got a gun! I got the hell out of there!"
911:

An example for my job (the napping blood guy was far fetched) is the ubiquitous 'smoke in the area' call, always from a cell phone caller, and always in the middle of the night. 99.99% of the time it's fog, or somebody doing burn outs in their car, or steam from a local business, or somebody firing up their grill at midnight. 911 can't just decide that it isn't an emergency, though, so I get pulled out of my nice warm bunk, and I can't just decide it's not an emergency either, because there is a chance (albeit slim) that something serious is going on.

It seems like cops are being bashed for responding to these calls period, not just for responding to these call and being assholes or unprofessional. I stand by my statement that an officer dispatched to a report like this has a duty to respond, even if the OC doesn't like it. I suppose if people want to be pissed, they need to direct their anger towards emergency dispatchers, not our hard-pressed flatfoots.

[WY_Not]

That is the whole point to it though. Those types of calls (man with a gun) SHOULD be treated just like a "man driving down the street" call. Unless he is doing something obviously illegal or very stupid, response should be "Yeah, so. OC is legal in this municipality/county/state."

[ODA 226]

Dan,
It is the responsibility of the DISPATCHER to determine if a crime is currently being committed and if there is a JUSTIFIABLE CAUSE to send a Deputy to the caller's location. If a crime is NOT in progress, the dispatcher has the RESPONSIBILITY NOT to send a Deputy to that call.

Concur, and in a perfect world this screening would work 100% of the time. I think there is a difference between what you originally said and your example, though.

There is no difference. I clearly said:

Police are NOT required to respond to a call that does not involve an illegal act.

I then stated:

It is the responsibility of the DISPATCHER to determine if a crime is currently being committed and if there is a JUSTIFIABLE CAUSE to send a Deputy to the caller's location. If a crime is NOT in progress, the dispatcher has the RESPONSIBILITY NOT to send a Deputy to that call.

An officer that is dispatched has a duty to respond.
Absolutely! I agree with you 100%!

An officer that is not dispatched...well, they probably won't respond to an incident they're never dispatched to. You're used to dealing with incomplete information, most 911 calls have very incomplete information. The example you gave is pretty black and white. Here (in my opinion) is a more common example:

Caller: "I just saw a man with a gun walk into the 711!"
911: "Okay, sir, can you tell what the man was doing?"
Caller: "Hell no! He's got a gun! I got the hell out of there!"
911:

An example for my job (the napping blood guy was far fetched) is the ubiquitous 'smoke in the area' call, always from a cell phone caller, and always in the middle of the night. 99.99% of the time it's fog, or somebody doing burn outs in their car, or steam from a local business, or somebody firing up their grill at midnight. 911 can't just decide that it isn't an emergency, though, so I get pulled out of my nice warm bunk, and I can't just decide it's not an emergency either, because there is a chance (albeit slim) that something serious is going on.

It seems like cops are being bashed for responding to these calls period, not just for responding to these call and being assholes or unprofessional. I stand by my statement that an officer dispatched to a report like this has a duty to respond, even if the OC doesn't like it. I suppose if people want to be pissed, they need to direct their anger towards emergency dispatchers, not our hard-pressed flatfoots.

Agreed and that is why dispatchers and Police Officers are being re-trained in Virginia!

[SeerSavant]

With luck, in another few years, there won't be as many of these, call em, missguided, 911 calls.

20 years ago, I had to have a judge okay my concealed, and open carry, good luck getting away with that in Hampton Roads...

Now, it's like night and day, and a few years down the road... perhaps constitutional carry? Still want the permit as I do like NC...




One thing about this thread that is important to remember is that in the end, the legality of open carry, and the mystery around legal carry is being demystified with every case, and that over the past few years, the ability of people to carry is becoming more accepted to the mainstream.

And that is good news all around.

[ODA 226]

lmao, since when do you have the right to not be talked to in public?

That Oceanside cop did not a damned thing wrong. You can be stopped and talked to for ANYTHING, dude. Yes, open carry is legal in Cali, but unloaded carry only.

The Oceanside officer made a legal detention in that video based on state law and was very professional.

A Peace Officer, as we used to be called, CAN initiate a conversation with a citizen at anytime, but unless said citizen is suspected of having:
A. Committed a crime.
B. Is ABOUT to commit a crime. Or:
C. IS committing a crime.

THE "Conversation" must be CONSENTUAL. If it is NOT a consentual conversation, the "conversation" has turned into a DETENTION.

My advice to everyone here is to NEVER ENGAGE IN A CONSENTUAL CONVERSATION WITH A COP who approaches you for no apparent reason. He is NOT your friend and is most likely on a "Fishing Expedition". Please heed this advice. I used to be one of them...

[tedbeau]

my thoughts on open carry:

Con. Removes the element of surprise. Pro. Is easier to draw from.
Con. Makes everyday exchanges and transactions with the "man on the street" less comfortable for the other person. Pro Perhaps gives an opportunity to educate the public about legality of open carry.

That being said, I have thought about open carrying just to see how I would react, how others would react, would it indeed be a big deal or not.

I have actually open carried, because in Michigan you cannot conceal in a hospital but you can open carry with a CPL. My wife works in a hospital and I have had to brnig her stuff while she was working. Sometimes I go through the hassle or disarming and locking the gun up just to run lunch in to her. Lately though my thought is to do the virgina tuck and expose the gun but make a concious effort to keep my strong side away from anyone I am near. Since she works near the entrance to the hospital I can keep interaction with others to a minimum. As far as I know no one has actually noticed the gun the three or four times I have done this.

I guess I'll let the open carry advocates push the envelope, and if it becomes more common then I might reconsider my position. I know this is a cop out, and I shouldn't expect the open carry community to do the work/ take the risk, but I'm happy with my CPL, and will work around the pistol free zones as need be until things change.

[Czechnology]

I open carried a fullside CZ75 for 2 years in the Richest, Bluest, Soccermom-est part of Northern Virginia. Less than 10 people noticed, (excluding the cop I talked to who aside from looking back and forth between my eyes and the gun the whole time, said nothing) and only 1 of those reacted negatively.


It's far less of a big deal than you think. The average person isn't looking for a gun, thus they don't see one. Gun people, cops, veterans, and anyone who subscribes to the Cooper "Color" system of alertness will be more likely to notice, but they are not a significant portion of the population, particularly in urban/suburban areas.

TL;DR: IME, Open carry isn't a huge deal. Of the 10 people who even noticed, the most common question I got was "Is that real?"

[JTNieman]

I open carried a fullside CZ75 for 2 years in the Richest, Bluest, Soccermom-est part of Northern Virginia. Less than 10 people noticed, (excluding the cop I talked to who aside from looking back and forth between my eyes and the gun the whole time, said nothing) and only 1 of those reacted negatively.


It's far less of a big deal than you think. The average person isn't looking for a gun, thus they don't see one. Gun people, cops, veterans, and anyone who subscribes to the Cooper "Color" system of alertness will be more likely to notice, but they are not a significant portion of the population, particularly in urban/suburban areas.

TL;DR: IME, Open carry isn't a huge deal. Of the 10 people who even noticed, the most common question I got was "Is that real?"

This is the exact same thing that's happened to me in Louisiana for the year or so I carried my BHP openly. Pretty much the same down to the "is that real" and the interaction with the cop, lol.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I open carried a fullside CZ75 for 2 years in the Richest, Bluest, Soccermom-est part of Northern Virginia. Less than 10 people noticed, (excluding the cop I talked to who aside from looking back and forth between my eyes and the gun the whole time, said nothing) and only 1 of those reacted negatively.


It's far less of a big deal than you think. The average person isn't looking for a gun, thus they don't see one. Gun people, cops, veterans, and anyone who subscribes to the Cooper "Color" system of alertness will be more likely to notice, but they are not a significant portion of the population, particularly in urban/suburban areas.

TL;DR: IME, Open carry isn't a huge deal. Of the 10 people who even noticed, the most common question I got was "Is that real?"

This is the exact same thing that's happened to me in Louisiana for the year or so I carried my BHP openly. Pretty much the same down to the "is that real" and the interaction with the cop, lol.

Didn't you guys know open carry is dangerous? Look at the Old West, and all those territories! All those cowboys OC'd handguns, shotguns, and rifles, and look what happened, all the cowboys are dead and no one lives in those places anymore!

[nathat]

thankfully GA has open carry laws (allowed). Growing up I worked on a farm and OC all day because of animal problems in the country. When I had to run to the hardware store, or grab something to eat, I didn't worry about having something on my hip and would shop as normal. In this situation, I had no problem with OC and it was a small enough town everyone knew I was no threat. With that said, now I live in a more urban environment and carry concealed all the time. 1. I don't want to cause anyone to be uncomfortable just because it is my right. 2. it gives me the option to present a firearm in a situation, or to remain as I am. There are some decent arguments that OC prevents crime to begin with, but I tend to prefer my choice in the matter. 3. I do not wish to give of the incorrect persona for the type of work I do. I work with Youth and do not want backlash.

With the situation presented I see nothing wrong with the guy. Should he have listened to the officer? I would have, but honestly you should never have to follow an unlawful command. Safer? sure. But let us be silly for a moment. What if the officer commanded you to hand over all your cash, significant other, and to beg for your life? At some point as a citizen you get to say "no."

[Czechnology]

thankfully GA has open carry laws (allowed). Growing up I worked on a farm and OC all day because of animal problems in the country. When I had to run to the hardware store, or grab something to eat, I didn't worry about having something on my hip and would shop as normal. In this situation, I had no problem with OC and it was a small enough town everyone knew I was no threat. With that said, now I live in a more urban environment and carry concealed all the time. 1. I don't want to cause anyone to be uncomfortable just because it is my right. 2. it gives me the option to present a firearm in a situation, or to remain as I am. There are some decent arguments that OC prevents crime to begin with, but I tend to prefer my choice in the matter. 3. I do not wish to give of the incorrect persona for the type of work I do. I work with Youth and do not want backlash.

With the situation presented I see nothing wrong with the guy. Should he have listened to the officer? I would have, but honestly you should never have to follow an unlawful command. Safer? sure. But let us be silly for a moment. What if the officer commanded you to hand over all your cash, significant other, and to beg for your life? At some point as a citizen you get to say "no."

http://opencarry.org/ga.html

Have things changed?

[WY_Not]

Yeah... the times. I carried a pocket knife to school all the time growing up. Parents had a farm and it was a tool that was used often. It never jumped out of my pocket and stabbed anyone. Now though at that same school, my kids would be thrown out and prosecuted for carrying a pocket knife.

http://opencarry.org/ga.html

Have things changed?

[nathat]

thankfully GA has open carry laws (allowed). Growing up I worked on a farm and OC all day because of animal problems in the country. When I had to run to the hardware store, or grab something to eat, I didn't worry about having something on my hip and would shop as normal. In this situation, I had no problem with OC and it was a small enough town everyone knew I was no threat. With that said, now I live in a more urban environment and carry concealed all the time. 1. I don't want to cause anyone to be uncomfortable just because it is my right. 2. it gives me the option to present a firearm in a situation, or to remain as I am. There are some decent arguments that OC prevents crime to begin with, but I tend to prefer my choice in the matter. 3. I do not wish to give of the incorrect persona for the type of work I do. I work with Youth and do not want backlash.

With the situation presented I see nothing wrong with the guy. Should he have listened to the officer? I would have, but honestly you should never have to follow an unlawful command. Safer? sure. But let us be silly for a moment. What if the officer commanded you to hand over all your cash, significant other, and to beg for your life? At some point as a citizen you get to say "no."

http://opencarry.org/ga.html

Have things changed?

On private property you can OC (farm), in the car you can OC, and with a permit OC or concealed is allowed. Is the confusion from me saying "growing up"?

[Czechnology]

thankfully GA has open carry laws (allowed). Growing up I worked on a farm and OC all day because of animal problems in the country. When I had to run to the hardware store, or grab something to eat, I didn't worry about having something on my hip and would shop as normal. In this situation, I had no problem with OC and it was a small enough town everyone knew I was no threat. With that said, now I live in a more urban environment and carry concealed all the time. 1. I don't want to cause anyone to be uncomfortable just because it is my right. 2. it gives me the option to present a firearm in a situation, or to remain as I am. There are some decent arguments that OC prevents crime to begin with, but I tend to prefer my choice in the matter. 3. I do not wish to give of the incorrect persona for the type of work I do. I work with Youth and do not want backlash.

With the situation presented I see nothing wrong with the guy. Should he have listened to the officer? I would have, but honestly you should never have to follow an unlawful command. Safer? sure. But let us be silly for a moment. What if the officer commanded you to hand over all your cash, significant other, and to beg for your life? At some point as a citizen you get to say "no."

http://opencarry.org/ga.html

Have things changed?

On private property you can OC (farm), in the car you can OC, and with a permit OC or concealed is allowed. Is the confusion from me saying "growing up"?

Primarily, yes, but I also assumed you'd be getting out of the car at some point as well. I'm not saying you didn't do it, or that nobody minded, but that as it stands now (From my limited searching), it's illegal, particularly if you weren't old enough. I Know in Kansas, even today, you can get a kind of "Farm truck" drivers license at 14.

[nathat]

I think some of the confusion is my choice of words. "Growing up" on the farm ranges from age 6-21.

[MaconCJ7]

Skipping through most of this thread, I'll give a quick rundown of two scenarios in which I was confronted for open carry.

1st: Traveling down the interstate right around midnightish. Decided I wanted some coffee. Pulled off the freeway and went to the gas station. Out in the sticks kind of place, but hey, no big deal. Used the restroom, got some coffee and a Monster. Waiting on a dude standing in the "closed" line. I was in the open line, but the dude had a girl waiting outside and he was nervous about the condoms he was purchasing. I found it amusing. Heck, I even grabbed the package for him since he was so nervous about the girl seeing it. He then asks if I'm a cop. I said no. He said something along the lines of "Well, you just don't see many people open carrying around here". I said, "Cool. You must be local fuzz then?". "Yes, I'm a Deputy Sheriff. There's nothing wrong with open carry, it's just not normal around here." "Cool." "Have a good night." "You too." The clerk is an older lady and she just shakes her head chuckling at him when he leaves.

2nd: At a jewelry store in the mall. Had to wait around for a few minutes for it to open. It didn't open until 1000, I was there about a quarter til. I bought a soft drink and sat on a bench. Store finally opens up, I go in for my business. The guy is making a call and otherwise getting stuff ready, I browse the store. He welcomes me and we begin our business. He makes another call to verify my question (He had to ship a ring out to get some work done). While he's on the phone mall security comes in. "Hello, how are you doing Sir?" "Good, yourself?" "Doing good. Do you happen to have a badge?" "No Sir, but I have my carry permit." "Oh, you have to have a badge to carry here." "Oh, okay. Is it cool if I finish my business here first?" "Yeah, that's no problem. You can even do more shopping, just go lock the gun in your car or something." "Thank you Sir." And that was the end of that. It wasn't posted on any of the exterior doors (I made sure before I entered), and it's the owners right to have that rule. I won't be conducting business there anymore, but I fully respect their right to make that decision.

Now, both encounters, I had a full beard and a shaved head. First encounter, I was wearing cargo shorts and an untucked "Molon Labe" t-shirt, and flip flops. Second encounter I was wearing cargo pants and a tucked in polo shirt, and boots. Point being, appearance doesn't always dictate response, but attitude and actions say volumes. I wasn't disrespectful in either scenario, and I wasn't nervous or fidgetty. I was calm, comfortable, and confident. I think I displayed more confidence than the deputy figured I should have, which caused him to linger and just make himself feel more awkward, but no issues came of either. I didn't talk down to him, but the way he worded his questions brought a little smartness to my tone.

I've also open carried in Best Buy, and stood right by Highway Patrol and didn't even elicit a second glance from him. I think he had a bit more experience than the Deputy. Heck, most of my open carrying doesn't elicit any sort of response from the fuzz, and I've been in all manner of outfit. Usually with a beard.

[YllwFvr]

Lots of good stuff here. Im surprised how many seem to have little issue with OC.

Im also glad to see several who are or were LEOs weighing in on it. I OCed for three years before I decided to become an officer myself. I was never confronted by an officer and only once had a negative encounter. Most people just ask if its real and are curious about the laws. Also most people dont notice. One of the things that burns me though is the element of surprise so many speak of. I have seen some cases where that works but I sure as hell wouldnt try it. If a guy pulls a knife on me he will surely be inside the 21 feet buffer. If he has a gun then its probably pointed at me. I wouldnt feel confident I could, from concealment or otherwise, pull and fire before I could be stabbed or shot. It has happened but I wont be testing my own speed.
If you have been ambushed, its pretty tough to ambush them back.

As for the you will be noticed and shot first in a hold up, OCers have been present in one, and the crook didnt see them until they were shot. I think the OCer was carrying a cap and ball revolver, I am looking for the story and will update if I can find it. Maybe the fella from OCDO knows how to find it, pretty sure it was a huge story for that site when it happened. Im not saying it cant happen, but most criminals arent in the murder mind set. They plan to go in and flash the gun and get cash. It takes a mental shift. They dont expect to have to fire the gun.

Anyway, I know Mr Fiorino, though not well. We are "friends" on facebook and chat every now and then. This was his third stop by philly pd for OC. Plus, philly has had many encounters with OCers. There was state wide mandatory training for ALL cops in Pennsylvania two or three years ago I believe. Plus, I can say for sure that we went over it a good bit in police academy so its taught in school as well. On top of that, since philly has had run ins several times they released dept directives informing all officers as to OC and its legality. There is no excuse this officer didnt know the law.

I didnt read the whole thread since many of the posts were more of the same, but since I didnt see it, Mark was charged later, some say in retaliation to the audio being posted on youtube, with Reckless Endangerment, and disorderly conduct, and was found not guilty. The judge wouldnt have it from what I hear. Civil action is being pursued. I think I saw it posted already but the first post contains the updates and a bit further in the whole story from his view. http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/1 ... carry.html
A good shot of Mark

I find it amusing in the botton of the pic it says "Mark Fiorino with his registered handgun". Pa has one law about firearms registration. It is illegal for anyone to attempt to maintain a firearms registry in the state.

I havent run into an OCer yet on duty, but if I did I think it would be a very interesting encounter. It would make my day.

Carry on!

[ODA 226]

As for the you will be noticed and shot first in a hold up, OCers have been present in one, and the crook didnt see them until they were shot. I think the OCer was carrying a cap and ball revolver, I am looking for the story and will update if I can find it. Maybe the fella from OCDO knows how to find it, pretty sure it was a huge story for that site when it happened. Im not saying it cant happen, but most criminals arent in the murder mind set. They plan to go in and flash the gun and get cash. It takes a mental shift. They dont expect to have to fire the gun.
Carry on!

That incident occured in Richmond, Va. about 3 years ago. IIRC,the BG walked into the store and without saying a word, shot the clerk in the lower torso. The GG open carrying a .44 cal SA cap and ball revolver, was standing at the counter and witnessed the clerk (his friend get shot).

The GG drew his revolver and told the BG to drop his weapon. BG fired another round and the GG returned fire, but fell to the ground, breaking the hammer spring on his revolver. BG runs to the rear of the store and threatens to shoot an unarmed bystander.

GG gets up and runs to the back of the store and "fan" fires his revolver, striking the BG. The BG runs out of the store and expires in the parking lot.

GG is crucified in the media as being a "vigilante". All eye witnesses call GG a hero that saved their lives.

GG and his buddy are doing well.

[squinty]

As for the you will be noticed and shot first in a hold up, OCers have been present in one, and the crook didnt see them until they were shot. I think the OCer was carrying a cap and ball revolver, I am looking for the story and will update if I can find it. Maybe the fella from OCDO knows how to find it, pretty sure it was a huge story for that site when it happened. Im not saying it cant happen, but most criminals arent in the murder mind set. They plan to go in and flash the gun and get cash. It takes a mental shift. They dont expect to have to fire the gun.
Carry on!

That incident occured in Richmond, Va. about 3 years ago. IIRC,the BG walked into the store and without saying a word, shot the clerk in the lower torso. The GG open carrying a .44 cal SA cap and ball revolver, was standing at the counter and witnessed the clerk (his friend get shot).

The GG drew his revolver and told the BG to drop his weapon. BG fired another round and the GG returned fire, but fell to the ground, breaking the hammer spring on his revolver. BG runs to the rear of the store and threatens to shoot an unarmed bystander.

GG gets up and runs to the back of the store and "fan" fires his revolver, striking the BG. The BG runs out of the store and expires in the parking lot.

GG is crucified in the media as being a "vigilante". All eye witnesses call GG a hero that saved their lives.

GG and his buddy are doing well.

Link to story (ies?)

[YllwFvr]

Here is a forum that has a couple linked stories in the OP. Neither are 100% clear but Im still looking.
http://vagunforum.net/general-discussio ... t1225.html

[ODA 226]

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... olden+Food

Shooter died at the hospital.....I'm getting old and my memory fails me from time to time. It was the trigger that broke, NOT the hammer spring.

[ink]

as i listen to the audio from that video playing in the background with the piggies yelling "SHUT THE FUCK UP" at this guy as he tries to explain to THEM the THEIR OWN laws that they should know in the first place i cant help but hate cops a little bit more than i already do. little men with badges

[Czechnology]

as i listen to the audio from that video playing in the background with the piggies yelling "SHUT THE FUCK UP" at this guy as he tries to explain to THEM the THEIR OWN laws that they should know in the first place i cant help but hate cops a little bit more than i already do. little men with badges

Ink: Keep your broad generalizations/insults to yourself, please, and feel free to make some kind of attempt at capitalization, punctuation, etc.

Please Review forum rules before posting again.

[ink]

as i listen to the audio from that video playing in the background with the piggies yelling "SHUT THE FUCK UP" at this guy as he tries to explain to THEM the THEIR OWN laws that they should know in the first place i cant help but hate cops a little bit more than i already do. little men with badges

Ink: Keep your broad generalizations/insults to yourself, please, and feel free to make some kind of attempt at capitalization, punctuation, etc.

Please Review forum rules before posting again.

haha, i have been a part of all sorts of different message boards for years and have never seen anyone have a problem with my capitalization. i spell everything correctly and thats all im concerned about.

as far as my views on police officers, you can think what you want to about them and i will think what i want to about them, fair? most people that defend them usually have a family member that is a cop and thats why they stick up for them so passionately. i would assume you are that type.