What would your ideal PAW job be?

[RickOShea]

Awww it's not that funny of an idea is it?
I'm a "green" guy in that I would like to think humans are smarter than bacteria and can choose to do something other than eat, shit, and procreate until they die in their own filth. If we're in "start-over" mode its a prime time not to replicate all the mistakes of the past and try to find a more sustainable way to approach life.
Organic electric technology exists in nature (nerves, electric eels etc) but has not been developed and exploited commercially as an alternative to metal based technology.

And who's going to be developing all these wonderful alternatives in the PAW? The big brains at M.I.T.? U.C.Berkley? Those "institutions" aren't going to exist anymore.

Going "paleolithic" in the PAW may be foisted upon a lot of folks, but I'm not giving up metal technology willingly. In a post-apocalyptic world, were life spans will be cut in half over night, most folks aren't going to give up any advantage that the remnants of technology can provide.

People will be going "cave man" because the have to, not because it's the "green alternative". And a steel arrow head is much better than a flint one.

[Rev]

To much already processed metal and people who have hobbies of working with it.

[RickOShea]

To much already processed metal and people who have hobbies of working with it.

Yes, Shrap will be making chainmail in exchange for ingredients for her pizzas and tamarind pork chops.

[Rev]

I'd also like to say that should we as a species drop back to neolithic tech we deserve extinction. Need to find the book about the boy who built windmills that brought light to himself then his village out of scrap and cobbled together tools.

[fourway]

I'd also like to say that should we as a species drop back to neolithic tech we deserve extinction. Need to find the book about the boy who built windmills that brought light to himself then his village out of scrap and cobbled together tools.

"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as “bad luck." --Robert Heinlein

[Dr Headshot]

Is village Idiot a job or honorary position?

[Rev]

I'd also like to say that should we as a species drop back to neolithic tech we deserve extinction. Need to find the book about the boy who built windmills that brought light to himself then his village out of scrap and cobbled together tools.

"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as “bad luck." --Robert Heinlein

Odd, I don't see that at all. Any time we "regress" we seem to regroup fairly quickly and exceed our original accomplishments.

[dogbane]

I'd also like to say that should we as a species drop back to neolithic tech we deserve extinction. Need to find the book about the boy who built windmills that brought light to himself then his village out of scrap and cobbled together tools.

"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as “bad luck." --Robert Heinlein

Odd, I don't see that at all. Any time we "regress" we seem to regroup fairly quickly and exceed our original accomplishments.

I agree. Heinlein is one of the 20th Century's great authors of false aphorisms, a Horatio Alger in space.

[squinty]

Is village Idiot a job or honorary position?

[Rev]

Is village Idiot a job or honorary position?

From what I've seen of our local community it seems to be an elected and highly paid position.

[donjulio]

Studying and protecting marine biodiversity.......or maybe a professional heckler.

[Dash]

I think being a PAW banker would be the most cushy position. You just take everyone's stuff, then loan it out to other people for a price.

[wamba]

In a commune with scarce resources, it seems intuitive that the necessaries of life could never be 'private' until everyone's needs were sufficiently catered for. They'd be shared out so people don't go short. This might seem like a bad thing when your belly's rumbling and you see the tasty hog you hunted dished out to all and sundry. But when the point is reached where all needs are met, everyone gets better off and can start to kick back a lil. It'd be a rough ride getting there, but overall it's more conducive to the survival of the commune. I think a decent model for a commune would be a primitive society. All competition stays firmly within the bounds of play and never impinges on co-operation. Wolf-packs are a nice little prototype, too. When a mother's had some cubs and has nursed them to the point where they can eat solids, she goes back out with the hunters to get back in trim. A wolves stay behind to take care of the cubs and play round with 'em, and can also usher them into a lil burrow if other predators are on the prowl.

Something like this was brought up in a conversation a while back & I just have to ask you the same question I asked then (not trying to be a dick, I'm honestly curious). What do you do with a member of the commune that refuses to pull their own weight & still expects (even if it means grazing while working in the garden for example) a equal share? And just as important who makes the decision, if you let the population of your little group vote on it enough people could be swayed, guilted, or even threatened as turn voting into a farce.
Let's make it a little more difficult & go with this hypothetical situation, me & my small family live on (own) 10 acres of prime land on the edge of the little village that's being organized into a commune. We have no desire to share with the villagers, we'll trade with them but they aren't going to get anything we produce or have stocked up without meeting our price. We've lived the prepping life style for a while & are sitting pretty, but for whatever reason we don't care for our neighbors & don't want to be part of their commune. I'm not talking an active threat but more of a passive "sink or swim it makes no difference to me" neighbor that will be eating regularly while you go hungry situation.
I look forward to your answers & have faith that they'll be better than the last ones I got.

[squinty]

In a commune with scarce resources, it seems intuitive that the necessaries of life could never be 'private' until everyone's needs were sufficiently catered for. They'd be shared out so people don't go short. This might seem like a bad thing when your belly's rumbling and you see the tasty hog you hunted dished out to all and sundry. But when the point is reached where all needs are met, everyone gets better off and can start to kick back a lil. It'd be a rough ride getting there, but overall it's more conducive to the survival of the commune. I think a decent model for a commune would be a primitive society. All competition stays firmly within the bounds of play and never impinges on co-operation. Wolf-packs are a nice little prototype, too. When a mother's had some cubs and has nursed them to the point where they can eat solids, she goes back out with the hunters to get back in trim. A wolves stay behind to take care of the cubs and play round with 'em, and can also usher them into a lil burrow if other predators are on the prowl.

Something like this was brought up in a conversation a while back & I just have to ask you the same question I asked then (not trying to be a dick, I'm honestly curious). What do you do with a member of the commune that refuses to pull their own weight & still expects (even if it means grazing while working in the garden for example) a equal share? And just as important who makes the decision, if you let the population of your little group vote on it enough people could be swayed, guilted, or even threatened as turn voting into a farce.
Let's make it a little more difficult & go with this hypothetical situation, me & my small family live on (own) 10 acres of prime land on the edge of the little village that's being organized into a commune. We have no desire to share with the villagers, we'll trade with them but they aren't going to get anything we produce or have stocked up without meeting our price. We've lived the prepping life style for a while & are sitting pretty, but for whatever reason we don't care for our neighbors & don't want to be part of their commune. I'm not talking an active threat but more of a passive "sink or swim it makes no difference to me" neighbor that will be eating regularly while you go hungry situation.
I look forward to your answers & have faith that they'll be better than the last ones I got.

Well, you wouldn't be part of the commune. In the hypothetical you provided, your family and their ten acres are a separate entity from the commune. There's no reason to think free trade between your family and the commune couldn't benefit both groups, that's what trade's supposed to do.

I would hope membership in a commune was voluntary: if enough people shirked , and the shirker vote held sway then the productive members would leave - if they didn't feel membership in the commune benefited them, why would they stay? If membership does have some benefit, then those benefits are worth working for.

If the shirker vote didn't hold sway, those who didn't work would be asked - pointedly - to do more. In such small groups, peer pressure and shaming are more than sufficient to gain compliance. I'd prefer a system of private ownership and trade within the group to communal living, but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. There could be communal tasks that everyone benefited from - like maintaining a levee, or standing guard against raiders, or fixing potholes, or putting out fires - and primary, private functions like baking, brewing, blacksmithing, software engineering, zombie husbandry or whatever specialized labor someone was entrepreneurial enough to undertake, that were for profit, barter or currency based.

So, you shot a hog. Is it worth it to you to share it out to the other members of the commune who don't hunt so well? It might be. What do they do for you? Would you be happier on your own, with the whole hog to yourself, or will the guy you share the hog with today help you fix your roof tomorrow, or guard you while ypu sleep tonight? There's no right answer, you're a free person. Stay or go.

[fourway]

I agree. Heinlein is one of the 20th Century's great authors of false aphorisms, a Horatio Alger in space.

Oh I like Heinlein... in spite of his weird ayn rand lite ways and being wrong about all kinds of stuff. I posted the quote because I thought it was funny next to the sentiment that we deserve to perish if we revert to a neolithic state... the business about heroic solitary innovators raising mankind up from the muck is grandiose hyperbolic nattering, but the bit about people screwing themselves up and calling it bad luck? That's pretty much right on. And I adore the specialization is for insects quote.

[Rev]

I agree. Heinlein is one of the 20th Century's great authors of false aphorisms, a Horatio Alger in space.

Oh I like Heinlein... in spite of his weird ayn rand lite ways and being wrong about all kinds of stuff. I posted the quote because I thought it was funny next to the sentiment that we deserve to perish if we revert to a neolithic state... the business about heroic solitary innovators raising mankind up from the muck is grandiose hyperbolic nattering, but the bit about people screwing themselves up and calling it bad luck? That's pretty much right on. And I adore the specialization is for insects quote.

We've found out the the ant doesn't specialize.

[dogbane]

I agree. Heinlein is one of the 20th Century's great authors of false aphorisms, a Horatio Alger in space.

Oh I like Heinlein... in spite of his weird ayn rand lite ways and being wrong about all kinds of stuff. I posted the quote because I thought it was funny next to the sentiment that we deserve to perish if we revert to a neolithic state... the business about heroic solitary innovators raising mankind up from the muck is grandiose hyperbolic nattering, but the bit about people screwing themselves up and calling it bad luck? That's pretty much right on. And I adore the specialization is for insects quote.

A great storyteller and an eloquent polemicist was Heinlein. He was always forthright and intellectually honest about what he thought. Edit to add: He also was right about a lot of things, too. I like the word grok. My parents were from the Stranger in a Strange Land generation of hipsters.

Even though I think he was wrong about a lot of things, I love good false aphorisms for the eloquence, for making something incorrect sound intuitively correct.

And so on that note, in a post-apocalyptic world, I might want to be an oracle. I think I could write some good, baffling material that has the ring of truth and authority that desperate people could cling to.

[wamba]

Squinty, first off let me say thank you for a well thought out reply (even though I wasn't talking to you ) that makes a fair amount of sense. Then let me reassure you & any others that may have doubts, I have no problem with working together as a community for the welfare of all. I've just found some of the answers to my question (when the subject of commune style living comes up) to be interesting & wondered what his take would be.

[squinty]

I have no problem with working together as a community for the welfare of all.

I kind of do. I'm antisocial except for on the internet. Don't get me wrong I'll gladly do stuff for the community, but in return I want the community to stay off my lawn.

[fourway]

My parents were from the Stranger in a Strange Land generation of hipsters.

Yours too?

Even though I think he was wrong about a lot of things, I love good false aphorisms for the eloquence, for making something incorrect sound intuitively correct.

I have recently been mildly obsessed with the Thomas Hobbes false aphorism seen so often quoted, misquoted and paraphrased on this forum: "nasty, brutish and short"... problem with those things is if you let them hang around long enough they become canon.... and start to smell.

And so on that note, in a post-apocalyptic world, I might want to be an oracle. I think I could write some good, baffling material that has the ring of truth and authority that desperate people could cling to.

I've often considered doing that before the apocalypse. Or at least becoming a traveling charlatan.

[dogbane]

My parents were from the Stranger in a Strange Land generation of hipsters.

Yours too?

Even though I think he was wrong about a lot of things, I love good false aphorisms for the eloquence, for making something incorrect sound intuitively correct.

I have recently been mildly obsessed with the Thomas Hobbes false aphorism seen so often quoted, misquoted and paraphrased on this forum: "nasty, brutish and short"... problem with those things is if you let them hang around long enough they become canon.... and start to smell.

And so on that note, in a post-apocalyptic world, I might want to be an oracle. I think I could write some good, baffling material that has the ring of truth and authority that desperate people could cling to.

I've often considered doing that before the apocalypse. Or at least becoming a traveling charlatan.

Like The Postman.

I'm reevaluating Hobbes' "NBS" aphorism in light of Bloom's Lucifer Principle. I need to ponder it a bit.

[palehorse1301]

Fisherman. It's what I love; my BOL is on a very productive lake; I use and can make kayaks to fish; I can make fishhooks and line. Any excess fish can be traded for whatever is needed/wanted.

[CoolBreeze]

Is village Idiot a job or honorary position?

You have to earn the title. Unfortunately there will probably be a lot of competition.

[CoolBreeze]

Side discussion on social structure is interesting.
We like to think that everyone will play nice, contribute their fair share in exchange for their fair share but that hasn't happened anywhere that people are in more than minimum survival mode. As soon as comfort levels rise motivation declines and slackers start to abound. This is a basic charactoristic of life. It will take the easiest most efficient route to survive. If the slacker will get fed without working he/she will. They have met their need. Others are driven by senses of duty and obligation, among other things, that keeps them working harder than they need to for survival so they have excess. Communal systems will redistribute that "wealth" in order to be "fair" to the slackers. The producers of the excess can and will get fed up with their efforts rewarding people who don't contribute and withdraw from the system causing its collapse. I'm only using the extremes for example. There are people all up and down the duty/slacker scale who contribute or mooch at different levels.
A more viable, although tougher. system is to require people to earn what they want. They have to produce something others value in order to trade/buy what they don't have the skills/time to produce for themselves. This way they can focus their efforts on their strengths and produce enough excess to sell for profit that can be turned into more stuff for their survival. They might even be so successful as to be able to employ others in the area to assist them which benefits the workers as well. People are motivated by an empty stomach so they get busy working to support themselves rather than exist as a parasite on the community. Some amount of time and effort needs to be contributed to community efforts such as defense or large projects that all will benefit by. That IMO is better than hiring a bureaucracy to do it for you. You are hands on involved in the community efforts so you have ownership and a voice in what will or will not be done rather than at the mercy of leaders demanding more taxes to fund projects you don't agree with. Yes I am a capitalist and I make no appologies for it. It appears to be the best system for encouraging achievers and motivating slackers developed to date. Issues? Of course. They can be addressed by reasonable laws. Too much bad regulation just chokes the life out of it.