Abject Failure. Primitive Skills Day.

[phractal]

So yesterday, having been inspired by Regulators' thread on friction fire, I spent the day practicing primitive skills with a buddy and co-worker of my Miss. Long story short, we failed.

I had been a boy scout many years ago and my buddy had made it to eagle scout. We've both made fire by rubbing sticks together in the past and were feeling pretty cocky after a big breakfast of eggs, bacon, biscuits and gravy. My Miss and my buddys' girlfriend had full faith that we'd get a fire going and went to the store for kabob fixins. After rubbin sticks for 4 hours, we, with tails between our legs, finally reached for the BIC.

We got our fire, but it was a bitter sweet moment, for we had learned that we wern't as bad ass as we thought we were. All this misadventure has made me reevaluate my goals. Day before yesterday, I thought I couldn't live without a new multi tool. Today, I really want to buy a fire steel.

More important than either though is experience. I have a sneaking suspicion that many folks on this board have all the tools and gizmos to survive a ZPAW but not the experience to use em to their fullest. I know that not every one on this board has the time to rub sticks together for 4 hours but I want to stress the importance of getting out there and learning your equipment. Fire is toward the top when it comes to prioritising your needs. You best be able to make it.

I'm fortunate that I live on 16 acres of farm with tons of woods to play in. I can practice my field craft when ever I want. I'll try again tomarrow and every day till I get it down.

I guess the point of this diatrab is that even if you think you can do it, whatever it is, you still need to practice to stay sharp. I got a lesson yesterday. Thank god my life didn't depend on it.

[Leester]

Could there have been a slight error in your technique, or were you simply "rusty" on this particular skill?

[BigDaddyTX]

There was a thread recently on firesteels and how they're difficult to use without practice also. I've used them to light cotton balls/trioxane etc, but every tinder bundle I've tried to make with natural materials hasn't worked. I need to get out and do it more and try more different components, but there is certainly a trick to it that one has to acquire.

[phractal]

Could there have been a slight error in your technique, or were you simply "rusty" on this particular skill?

I think it was a bit of both. The closest I came to fire was a bit of smoke using the fire plow technique. It wore me out. The bow and drill was giving me a headache and kept spinning out. I suspect my bow was too tight and it didn't help that my drill had a very slight curve in it. I think next time I'll use a shot glass for the nut.

[fourway]

You should be able to tell pretty quick if you are on the right track with friction fire starting... if you are not getting smoke in the first few minutes of steady pressure/motion it probably isn't heating up fast enough to ever get you a usable spark.
The canonical on paper tutorial for bow drill is in Wilderness Survival Skills by Larry Dean Olsen.
you want the trade paper edition from BYU press with big clear color pictures, not the pulp paperback with dim B&W images.

Really its all about the wood, if you have your technique right and the wood isn't going to smoke and powder pretty fast you should try different wood.
It'll still often take hours and hours but at least it'll be hours and hours of finding the combo of technique/materials that works and not just killing yourself grinding away at stuff that's not going to reward your toil.

Whether you are trying to do a natural tinder starter or even singed cotton, you should practice getting the type of tinder you plan to use burning with easy sparks (like a torch sparker) and tiny embers (like the one inside the head of a blown out kitchen match) before you kill yourself getting a friction spark that you won't be able to keep alive.

[phractal]

The wood I was working with was alder and fir. The tender, which worked like a charm with the BIC, was a big wad of old mans beard and alder shavings. Once we had our fire, we used baton split alder to feed it. It was a good, hot fire.

I did learn that my machette batons way better than my knife. Looks like I'll have to keep one in the truck from now on.

[YllwFvr]

Ive been dying to try the fire bow, but I cant recall whats supposed to be hard and soft wood. Plus Im not sure I can tell the difference by looking at the stick/ tree it came from. I know a couple tree types but not most.

I will however endorse fire steel or metal match. Ive used it several times, never in the rain mind you, and its worked every time. Once on a scrap of TP I ripped off and tore up real good, twice on cat tail, and once on dried golden rod tops. I fluffed up the cat tail fibers and it lit but would go right out. More out of frustration than anything else I put a string of sparks into the depression id pulled the fibers out of and got a very nice coal right away. Within 15 seconds of blowing and wrapping it with my other tinder I had it lit.

So whats the wood make up of the firebow? Soft wood spindle and the base is hard??? Ill have to dig up the video again maybe. Even if I dont need to use one I would feel better knowing how.

[Regulator]

Good job phractal! If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them best I can. As I mentioned in the bow drill thread, a shot glass will help a lot while you get your technique down. I will add that if you aren't seeing smoke after a minute of constant spinning, stop and do something differently or you're just wasting your energy. And speaking of energy, did you have extra? A fire plow will kick my ass and I practice these things What kind of wood were you using?

The firesteel thread that BigDaddy mentioned does have some good info in it. Here's a link

YllwFvr, Both need to be softwood. Theres a link in my sig where you can see more about how I do it if you like.

[SiXiam]

I don't understand why people are so against using lighters. My sub-zero sleeping bag with modern synthetic fabrics is fine, but no you're not a prepper without some type of flint & steel!

All a lighter needs is a small crush & water proof container and there is nothing better! With lighters so cheap for a 5 pack, no way am I going to play boyscout games with twigs.

[Regulator]

I don't understand why people are so against using lighters. My sub-zero sleeping bag with modern synthetic fabrics is fine, but no you're not a prepper without some type of flint & steel!

All a lighter needs is a small crush & water proof container and there is nothing better! With lighters so cheap for a 5 pack, no way am I going to play boyscout games with twigs.

Sounds like you're all set then. No point learning anything new

[Jeriah]

I don't understand why people are so against using lighters. My sub-zero sleeping bag with modern synthetic fabrics is fine, but no you're not a prepper without some type of flint & steel!

All a lighter needs is a small crush & water proof container and there is nothing better! With lighters so cheap for a 5 pack, no way am I going to play boyscout games with twigs.

I take it you don't have iron sights on your rifle, either, just an optic?

[Blackdog]

I don't know what the weather was like but if your wood is at all damp then friction fire becomes a lot harder, a lot harder.

As a start, at least until you can bang out a few wins I would suggest that you make your gear and let it dry real well and then make it work under a controlled situation. Maybe make a couple or more sets out of various woods and see what works best in your neck of the woods.

For what it is worth I think Regulators tutorial over in Bushcraft is one of the best I have ever seen.

That said here is some more info and general friction fire junk. What I believe is that like all pros the old ones back in the day planned ahead, would build their rigs in good times, keep the rigs dry and collect tinder on a regular basis.

Love this reference just for the number of different types of friction fire shown. Not a how to exactly, but interesting all the same and does talk about different types of wood used in different areas.

http://www.archive.org/details/firemakingappara00houguoft

Just some general thoughts on friction fire.

http://www.mapsgroup.org/index.php?view=category&id=43%3Africtionfire&option=com_content&Itemid=18


I know that some would think this stuff a waste of time but if nothing else it will force you to step by step learn how to have your ducks in a row and build a fire right.

[pasha]

The way I've been doing it has been with cedar for the board and spindle, oak for the bearing block and what ever was around for the bow. The humidity can definitely make it much more difficult to get it going. One trick that I have found that works well is to use a longer bow (I use one about 3' long). This way you have a much longer stroke and less stops. Another trick is to hold the bow with your middle/ring/pinky finger and use your index and thumb to put tension on the bow string. I find this help me get the tension just right.
If your ever in the Tacoma area I'd be happy to show you.

Also here is a local place that teaches primitive skills, I highly recommend them.
http://www.wolfjourney.com/

[SiXiam]

I don't understand why people are so against using lighters. My sub-zero sleeping bag with modern synthetic fabrics is fine, but no you're not a prepper without some type of flint & steel!

All a lighter needs is a small crush & water proof container and there is nothing better! With lighters so cheap for a 5 pack, no way am I going to play boyscout games with twigs.

I take it you don't have iron sights on your rifle, either, just an optic?

I don't have a rifle, just a pistol, but if I did I would have one of those tritium sights.

[YllwFvr]

I don't understand why people are so against using lighters. My sub-zero sleeping bag with modern synthetic fabrics is fine, but no you're not a prepper without some type of flint & steel!

All a lighter needs is a small crush & water proof container and there is nothing better! With lighters so cheap for a 5 pack, no way am I going to play boyscout games with twigs.

There is nothing wrong with lighters, I have several in my BOB. They would be my primary fire starter. However if I fall into my pond or creek and they wont work for a while then I will need some other way to light a fire and it never hurts to know how to do it.

[Regulator]

Blackdog, Appreciate the kind words. I agree to some extent with you on the wet wood. I do however think that like a lot of things dealing with friction fire that it has been blown out of proportion to almost mythical terms. If your wood is still a bit green or is soaked through you obviously won’t have any success but a little dampness or humidity shouldn’t do anything but slow you down. And not by much. In the video at the end of my bow drill thread I pour water on my spindle and then make an ember with it. Friction=heat=evaporation=dry wood.

Good links you provided too. I hadn’t seen either and now have them saved as favs. Thanks!

[phractal]

I'm digging on all the feed back. It's becomming apparent to me that I need to consider my wood choice a bit more. One of my major concerns is peak oil, and while I know that many people aren't worried at all about it, I'm considering what might happen if I might not have access to disposable lighters.

Primative skills are important to me. Just yesterday, I had to make a fire in the rain for dogs and smores and I did well enough with just a BIC. I know I can start a fire with one flick of a disposable lighter. What I would like to be able to do is feel confident that I can make fire with the basics. (wood and more wood) Flint isn't common where I'm at and friction fire seens like the easiest do-able.

I don't want a skill that only works when I have access to oil based products, such as lighters and the like. I want to be able to yabba dabba doo my way into some heat if I need it. I got nothing against lighters, I'm a smoker. I just don't wanna have to depend on em in a SHTF situation.

I don't just wanna survive for days or weeks. I wanna be able to live for years.

[jprice390]

I've toyed with friction fires quite a bit, with a few successes and many failures. Often you end up sweaty and exhausted, with nothing to show for it. It's funny, in retrospect, so see how easy all the YouTubers and survival gurus make it appear. I'm going to try the pump drill method this weekend, using only what nature provides (except cordage). I'll post if I have any success. Thanks for sharing your experience, and good luck!

BigDaddyTX said:

There was a thread recently on firesteels and how they're difficult to use without practice also. I've used them to light cotton balls/trioxane etc, but every tinder bundle I've tried to make with natural materials hasn't worked. I need to get out and do it more and try more different components, but there is certainly a trick to it that one has to acquire.

Firesteels are definitely easier than friction fires, but you are absolutely right about finicky tinder. The best natural tinder I've found is cattail. A little bit goes a long way. You can rip off about 1/4 of the "tail," and fluff it up into a lofty nest. When that thing catches a spark, a wave of flame traverses the surface area. It's pretty cool, and you can keep fluffing the material out and using it over and over. That, combined with a bird's nest or dry grass and feathersticks should get it going for you. I've lit many fires that way in the dead of Ohio winter. Another excellent tinder for firesteel is dryer lint. That stuff practically erupts when a spark hits it.

[Blackdog]

Blackdog, Appreciate the kind words. I agree to some extent with you on the wet wood. I do however think that like a lot of things dealing with friction fire that it has been blown out of proportion to almost mythical terms. If your wood is still a bit green or is soaked through you obviously won’t have any success but a little dampness or humidity shouldn’t do anything but slow you down. And not by much. In the video at the end of my bow drill thread I pour water on my spindle and then make an ember with it. Friction=heat=evaporation=dry wood.

Good links you provided too. I hadn’t seen either and now have them saved as favs. Thanks!

Yeah I got ya and agree with you 78 percent. Green wood was mostly what I was talking about. Don't really know what phractal was working with and much of Washington is not know for being arid. Still think that using real dry wood during the learning curve helps.

Now my main plan yesterday was to scout a new donkey trail into the mountains, but as luck would have it there was way to much fog to make that a fun day. After flapping around scaring myself silly I came back down out of the near white out and screwed around with this. What I did was chop some type of mostly dead, semi-dry willow that was handy and made this: Note, the bow is a little large and exaggerated for photo purposes. The block was quicky worked from a river stone and my leatherman screwdriver. I also used the screwdriver blade to make a hole in the spindle, this is not really required as suitable knot will also work.




At the end of this short clip you can just see the smoke start. I then shut off the camera, got serious, put another loop in the line to take a little of the slack that was developing out, locked my spindle arm into my shin correctly and went to work. Locking in is important, I guess working the camera and wanting to keep the clips short put me off form a bit, damn nuisance camera.

Right click for video.





You can't really tell but it is quite misty out. I snagged some semi-dry grass from under a bush, walked over to the jute cord plant and got some of that and made a half assed tinder bundle. It took a bit of blowing but did spring to life after I lifted it off the ground. Holding your bundle a little over your head will help keep the smoke out of your eyes, damn camera.

Right click for video.





My conclusion after screwing around with a fresh off the tree, non dried spindle and board in damp conditions is that making friction fire with wood that is not dried out in mist is round about 22 percent harder. This may not be a lot harder but maybe enough to throw off the process.

Of course I didn't have a super dry sample to use on this occasion so that 22 percent may be a little off , the camera and giant sized bow were of no real help either to tell you the truth.

[Blackdog]

Blackdog, Appreciate the kind words. I agree to some extent with you on the wet wood. I do however think that like a lot of things dealing with friction fire that it has been blown out of proportion to almost mythical terms. If your wood is still a bit green or is soaked through you obviously won’t have any success but a little dampness or humidity shouldn’t do anything but slow you down. And not by much. In the video at the end of my bow drill thread I pour water on my spindle and then make an ember with it. Friction=heat=evaporation=dry wood.

Good links you provided too. I hadn’t seen either and now have them saved as favs. Thanks!

While I was out at one of my remote sites in some really heavy mist I tried this again with a non-photogenic bow that was not as big as my leg. My final findings are that I was wrong. I no longer believe that a little moisture has much of an impact in creating a coal. Now damp tinder can be a bugger but that is another story. For what it's worth it went easier with out the distraction of a camera and a couple of nosy parker dogs.

Bottom line: thanks for calling me out and forcing me to "prove it" and un-learn something I have long believed (that any dampness would make this much harder) but never bothered to really check.

Next time I might go ahead and try it with a fresh green spindle and board just to see what happens.

[Privateer73]

Primitive methods of making the all powerful fire are all secondary to modern methods. Now in a what if situation like being caught 12 miles out in Lincoln national forrest during a freak snowstorm without a bic primitive methods are your best fallback plan. We were hunting elk years ago and decided to drop off the rim down below nogal peak into what we fondly call hells half acre. The weather was overcast but not terrible, about noon the wind picked up and started dumping powder on us like crazy. We worked up along the protected side of the valley till we found a good overhang and got ready to wait it out. I started collecting tinder and sqaw wood to build a fire and realized I didnt have sqat to light it. Heres where the free and lightweight gear of knowledge comes in found a likely piece of flint break out the carbon steel knife start striking sparks. It took a while but the next 24 hours were much better with some heat. My first fail at being prepared we worried about food water and first aid but not heat.