"I want your headphones!" "Uhhh... who are you?"

[Gingersam]

Sorry, bit of a lurker posting here. But, I think this topic needs a little bit of realism.

Yes there are nasty men and women out there. Granted however not every drunk man you meet is out to rape you. And these lads probably weren't, I've approached women before while drunk yet meant no harm. And as for asking for your headphones, that may as been as straightforward as asking for a cigarette to the mind of young drunk person to whom headphones would be as ubiquitous.

Now their is nothing wrong with being alert and aware but if people are arguing but aren't looking/glancing at you, then they are probably just arguing about something other than what is between your legs.

And as for the replies, you can conceivably microanalyses every situation till it turns out that the person involved is secretly a murderer/thug/general bad guy.

Now I'm going back to lurking

[raptor]

Sorry, bit of a lurker posting here. But, I think this topic needs a little bit of realism.

Yes there are nasty men and women out there. Granted however not every drunk man you meet is out to rape you. And these lads probably weren't, I've approached women before while drunk yet meant no harm. And as for asking for your headphones, that may as been as straightforward as asking for a cigarette to the mind of young drunk person to whom headphones would be as ubiquitous.

Now their is nothing wrong with being alert and aware but if people are arguing but aren't looking/glancing at you, then they are probably just arguing about something other than what is between your legs.

And as for the replies, you can conceivably microanalyses every situation till it turns out that the person involved is secretly a murderer/thug/general bad guy.

The problem with that thought pattern is that consequences of being wrong are pretty bad.

I agree you should not assume everyone is an axe murderer/rapist. However, people clearly intruding upon your personal space and making demands (for headphones) is clearly different from a "tipsy", "chatty" person.

In an ambiguous situation, caution is IMO always the best approach.

[jamoni]

I'm going to agree that you absolutely WERE in danger.
1. You were alone
2. You APPEARED distracted and unaware of your surroundings.
3. When approached by two obviously intoxicated men, you reacted passively.
4. You allowed them to dominate you, take your things, and physically touch you, without any resistance. This let them know they could do ANYTHING without you resisting.

I agree with TDW. These guys were looking for a victim, and the only thing they were arguing about was who got to do what.

There are ways to fail a victim interview.
1. Roll 20 deep: Whenever possible, be with people you know and trust. This is not a weakness thing, or a gender thing: It's just math. 20 > 2
2. Keep your head up, your eyes open, and your expression severe. Look people in the eye LONG before they approach, and don't look away until they do. If they keep looking, give them a little nod, and if they don't nod back, you have a problem. If they DO nod back, you have a smart problem. :/
3. When approached in a way that feels wrong, trust your gut, and react accordingly. If two guys approached me whil I was sitting down, the first thing I'd do is stand up. That body language lets them know you perceive them as a threat, and are ready to do something about it.
4. Don't allow them to dominate you mentally. If they try it, simply yelling and screaming and cussing will most likely get them to back down quick, and say they were only joking. If they don't, RUN. If they do, leave, and if they follow, RUN.
This advice has nothing to do with your size or gender, BTW. It's just what I consider to be the best strategy to get out alive, which is how I define winning.

[jamoni]

Sorry, bit of a lurker posting here. But, I think this topic needs a little bit of realism.

Yes there are nasty men and women out there. Granted however not every drunk man you meet is out to rape you. And these lads probably weren't, I've approached women before while drunk yet meant no harm. And as for asking for your headphones, that may as been as straightforward as asking for a cigarette to the mind of young drunk person to whom headphones would be as ubiquitous.

Now their is nothing wrong with being alert and aware but if people are arguing but aren't looking/glancing at you, then they are probably just arguing about something other than what is between your legs.

And as for the replies, you can conceivably microanalyses every situation till it turns out that the person involved is secretly a murderer/thug/general bad guy.

Now I'm going back to lurking

Ginger, each of their actions were a breach of the social contract:
Good guys don't:
1. Swill vodka at the bus stop
2. approach a lone woman in a group when she is vulnerable
3. demand things from strangers
4. keep doing what they are doing when they realize they've scared a lone woman
5. put their arms around people they don't know
6. fight in public

Most of those things, by themselves, would be forgiveable. ADDED TOGETHER, THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY ON A MISSION TO BREAK THE SOCIAL CONTRACT IN AS MANY WAYS AS POSSIBLE.
Think that through, and then tell me you'd trust them with your daughter alone at a bus stop.

[wee drop o' bush]

I agree with TDW. These guys were looking for a victim, and the only thing they were arguing about was who got to do what.

There are ways to fail a victim interview.
Keep your head up, your eyes open, and your expression severe. Look people in the eye LONG before they approach, and don't look away until they do. If they keep looking, give them a little nod, and if they don't nod back, you have a problem. If they DO nod back, you have a smart problem. :/

That's what I do and it works for me. I have on occasion looked directly at someone from sideways on & then turned my head round so it's facing them. That is effective.

[silversnake]

There are ways to fail a victim interview.
1. Roll 20 deep: Whenever possible, be with people you know and trust. This is not a weakness thing, or a gender thing: It's just math. 20 > 2
2. Keep your head up, your eyes open, and your expression severe. Look people in the eye LONG before they approach, and don't look away until they do. If they keep looking, give them a little nod, and if they don't nod back, you have a problem. If they DO nod back, you have a smart problem. :/
3. When approached in a way that feels wrong, trust your gut, and react accordingly. If two guys approached me whil I was sitting down, the first thing I'd do is stand up. That body language lets them know you perceive them as a threat, and are ready to do something about it.
4. Don't allow them to dominate you mentally. If they try it, simply yelling and screaming and cussing will most likely get them to back down quick, and say they were only joking. If they don't, RUN. If they do, leave, and if they follow, RUN.
This advice has nothing to do with your size or gender, BTW. It's just what I consider to be the best strategy to get out alive, which is how I define winning.

Good general advice on not projecting the image of a victim, and thus not becoming one. I only have a minor quibble with your second point. What happens if you're walking down the street and I'm coming the other direction having read your advice here? Neither of us will break eye contact with the other, we'll nod to one another, and both assume the other is a "smart problem".

Yes, I know that's being a bit over-literal, I just thought the image a bit humorous. The overall advice of walking with a purpose, being aware of your surroundings, and projecting an air of confidence is solid and works. I know some of that can be difficult for those of us who are shy, let alone anyone with autism or similar conditions, but it is something that can be learned with practice.

[Shaper]

From what I'm hearing...what happened to you started off as what's called an "interview". Meaning, the first guy was gauging your reactions to see what you'd allow, what he could get away with. This is generally done as a prelude to a robbery or worse. It sounds like they were both drunk or otherwise intoxicated, and the second guy (who was the one creeping you out most, if I'm reading that correctly) may have been more drunk. If I had to guess, I'd say they were at cross purposes, both trying to "interview" you, which may have been what sparked the fight.

A couple of specific behaviors flag warnings for me in this case. One, the obvious ignoring of social protocols by approaching you. This is pretty self-explanatory; a man (and certainly not two men together) does not approach a strange woman travelling alone on the bus, unless he is in some way invited to do so by her. This is clearly going to weird said woman out, and the fact that they did not see or chose to ignore this social protocol says nothing good about them or their intents.

Two, the "you're scaring her" comment. This is a behavior called "forced pairing"; that is, behavior and comments which indicate a level of familiarity which does not exist, attempting to create a bond between you. Sometimes, the easiest way to create rapport is by acting like you already have it, and many predators use this to their advantage.

Lastly, there's the frequent attempts to force (or persuade) you to do small things; give up the headphones, take the token, take the money, accept physical contact...see the escalation there? From doing a favor for them, to engaging in business with them, to personal interaction. That's an escalating interview, and it's an interview you don't want to pass.

It sounds like a botched interview to me; one or both of these guys was sizing you up for victimization (in some way, couldn't tell you what they intended) and they messed it up or got distracted, probably due to their intoxication.

My advice; give no ground. With predatory or manipulative behavior, there is no place for kindness or submissiveness. A stranger asks for something from you, anything, simply say "no", firmly but not aggressively. This serves a very important purpose. If they're a good (albeit strange or socially awkward) person, they'll back off. If they're not a good person and are attempting to manipulate or otherwise victimize you, this simple no-nonsense refusal will either shut them down (90% of the time) or force their hand, making them become more openly aggressive. When that happens, it's time for the pepper spray and/or screaming for help.

No, humans absolutely do not get into hierarchy spats like dogs in a pack, but we get into hierarchy spats like monkeys in a troop quite frequently. That's a closer metaphor, anyway. In short, if you look at the reasons animals engage in violence, and the reasons humans engage in violence...you might be surprised to learn that they're nearly identical.

If you're interested I can suggest a few good books on the subject.

Projection of force works surprisingly well for females, depending on the situation. Force doesn't just mean violence or physical strength; social factors also play into it. All of this is situation and environment dependent, but generally, people attempting predatory behavior (I'm using "predatory" as a catch-all term for all criminal, manipulative and generally skeevy behavior) are aware that such behavior is socially unacceptable and do not want to be caught doing it. They don't want to be called out. If you simply say "no" to a request like the one in this case, they will most often retreat. This may be accompanied by what the Dog Brothers (FMA self defense guys) call "woofing". Woofing is aggressive posturing while retreating, like a dog barking or growling while running away. It's done to save face, and may take the form of anything from a rude comment to a diatribe painting you as the bad guy.

In the cases where they do not retreat, the "no" is still your best bet. If you say "no" and they do not retreat, you've gained valuable information. Namely that they are trying to victimize you. No means no and the failure to understand or accept that is the clearest of all predatory behaviors. As soon as you give a person a clear no on a request and they fail to accept that, you should be viewing them as a threat.

I'll stop rambling and just list some books that explain these things better than I can.

The Little Black Book of Violence. This is a great introduction, and contains a huge amount of useful information on criminal behavior. In addition, it offers a wealth of further reading.

The Gift of Fear: Gavin de Becker's is one of the pioneers of this field, and his book is still one of the best. He has a strong anti-gun bias, which I disagree with, but his research and experience still provide great information.

Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence: This one focuses a little more on physical self-defense training, but still offers an excellent, real-world perspective on criminal behavior and violence.

The Art of the Con: Avoiding Offender Manipulation: This focuses almost entirely on non-violent manipulation. It's a little dry, and is mostly written for people who deal professionally with cons (cops, corrections, parole officers, therapists, etc). The information is mostly common sense, but common sense is not a common virtue, and everyone needs a reminder.

Awesome and informative posts, TDW! kudos.

I have learned something today.

[nateted4]

Just wanted to tag this thread for its pure awesomeness, as exemplified by posts TDW586, jamoni, raptor and others.

Some posters have intimated that they could have been innocuous, and that treating all "hoodies" (I love that term) immediately like jerks and criminals is too harsh. Unfortunately if you are in a situation such as this, the [not all that] unlikely but very bad outcome (mugging) is way worse then being a jerk to someone who just wanted to know the time. As a big scary dude, "yutes" don't normally fuck with me, but all they deserve is a nod of recognition and maybe a small smile, nothing else.

[wee drop o' bush]

Nate here is a perfect example of hoodies, sorry for the slight derail.

[Towanda]

TDW586, jamoni, and raptor are giving really good advice here. Thanks for the book recommendations, TDW586. I'm going to see if my library has them.

Callista, don't acquiesce to a demand simply because there is no "social protocol." If there is no social protocol for the demand, then it's probably a demand that shouldn't be made in the first place. If you are uncomfortable telling strangers "No," practice saying it in the mirror. I know it sounds silly, and if you feel silly at first, then wait till no one else is home before you practice. It will help.

[IceWing]

TDW586, jamoni, and raptor are giving really good advice here. Thanks for the book recommendations, TDW586. I'm going to see if my library has them.

Callista, don't acquiesce to a demand simply because there is no "social protocol." If there is no social protocol for the demand, then it's probably a demand that shouldn't be made in the first place. If you are uncomfortable telling strangers "No," practice saying it in the mirror. I know it sounds silly, and if you feel silly at first, then wait till no one else is home before you practice. It will help.

That's good advice Towanda, but in some cases, it's much easier to say than it is to follow through...

Now, let me first say, I'm in my mid-30s (*blinks* when the hell did that happen?), 6'2", 270lbs, pretty much built like a wall that likes sweets and sits in front of a computer too many hours a day. (am a professional geek).

If I were in the same situation, I would pretty much have had the same thought... "WTF do I do in this situation?" It's a bizarre real life scenario, which means that, unlike fiction, it doesn't have to make sense. I would have probably spent a good 30 seconds trying to ascertain what the hell were these mooks doing? Would I have given them my headphones? Doubtful, since I'm neutral greedy. (Mine, go get your own!) If they were drunk and criminally oriented, my lack of reaction as I went through a response tree would have likely brought about an escalation to violence on their part, which would have likely been a poor choice as it would have immediately broken the logic process and raised a 'Fight' exception.

Now, adding in the autistic factor, I think she did reasonably well. More importantly, she's attempting to figure out what to do next time, so that her brain has something to pull up the next time she's in a similar situation.

My input on how you could have reacted better? Not really sure... Maybe said that you'd already called the cops about their public intoxication... Started talking out loud 'yes ma'am, I'm still here... They're talking to me now... No ma'am, the officer hasn't arrived yet'. For all they know, your headphones are attached to your cell phone and a call has been made. If they were up to no good, they may have high tailed it right then.

Ice

[Dabster]

Yeah, I'm utterly & completely unsure of what I would have done in your situation. I agree with TDW586 that they were absolutely pushing, and the rest of what he says makes sense too.

Even with pepper spray, I'd worry a lot about precipitating the more aggressive behavior unless I thought there was backup/escape very nearby (and I'm not sure what there was in this situation). Even an untrained guy is a LOT stronger than me.

I'd love to see the reading list, TDW.

Projection of force & being "grey" also seem different for women - but I don't know enough about it. It'd be great to get someone who does to start a thread on it.

Projection of force works surprisingly well for females, depending on the situation. Force doesn't just mean violence or physical strength; social factors also play into it. All of this is situation and environment dependent, but generally, people attempting predatory behavior (I'm using "predatory" as a catch-all term for all criminal, manipulative and generally skeevy behavior) are aware that such behavior is socially unacceptable and do not want to be caught doing it. They don't want to be called out. If you simply say "no" to a request like the one in this case, they will most often retreat. This may be accompanied by what the Dog Brothers (FMA self defense guys) call "woofing". Woofing is aggressive posturing while retreating, like a dog barking or growling while running away. It's done to save face, and may take the form of anything from a rude comment to a diatribe painting you as the bad guy.

In the cases where they do not retreat, the "no" is still your best bet. If you say "no" and they do not retreat, you've gained valuable information. Namely that they are trying to victimize you. No means no and the failure to understand or accept that is the clearest of all predatory behaviors. As soon as you give a person a clear no on a request and they fail to accept that, you should be viewing them as a threat.

I'll stop rambling and just list some books that explain these things better than I can.

The Little Black Book of Violence. This is a great introduction, and contains a huge amount of useful information on criminal behavior. In addition, it offers a wealth of further reading.

The Gift of Fear: Gavin de Becker's is one of the pioneers of this field, and his book is still one of the best. He has a strong anti-gun bias, which I disagree with, but his research and experience still provide great information.

Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence: This one focuses a little more on physical self-defense training, but still offers an excellent, real-world perspective on criminal behavior and violence.

The Art of the Con: Avoiding Offender Manipulation: This focuses almost entirely on non-violent manipulation. It's a little dry, and is mostly written for people who deal professionally with cons (cops, corrections, parole officers, therapists, etc). The information is mostly common sense, but common sense is not a common virtue, and everyone needs a reminder.

I was going to mention "The Gift of Fear". It is a great book with some extremely practical advice.

Thank you for mentioning the rest. I will read them ASAP.

[callista]

"The autistic factor" is exactly why I need to learn about this consciously instead of just "trusting my feelings". It's been my experience that the more I know about a subject, the better I deal with unusual situations relating to it.

Gonna check the library, see if they have any of those books. A couple of the titles sound familiar, so I bet they do.

[duodecima]

I think that there's a percentage of the female population that's nowhere on the autistic spectrum that would have outwardly reacted like callista, and a whole lot of us benefit from reading/learning about this. Do learn from experience and prepare, but don't be too hard on yourself.

[Ableto]

Sorry to respond to an old thread. Where i live and since i work for a local community center which is the middle of a park, I get lots of so called interesting Requests from ppl. Lots of times its ppl looking for money to get home, Or that they like what i have. Or we get stupid younger kids that think that they can get away with vandalizing the park playground equipment. Little do they know we are in close contact with the local police substation a few blocks away.

If someone came up to me and asked me for my headphones i would say sure, but give a warning that i currently had an ear infection and it might no longer be contagious. At that point i would see how quickly they would change their mind. Or if they come in the community center and ask for something they might have lost in the park. I would ask them to tell me a detailed description of what they lost, and when all done i would just pull out a pair of old 1950's grandma glasses and say that all we found recently.

I been around a lot and worked many jobs, but working in a toy hobby store, you will hear so many stories and see so many ways kids and adults try to scam the store or others around them.

Also its always better to report any such activity, because if you dont then the cops wont know what to look for.

[colinz]

Re. My wearing headphones--It's not really a choice for me in some situations. When it's noisy and confusing, my brain tends to shut down if I don't block out some of the noise. The headphones are actually a socially-appropriate version of earplugs for me.

I'm not autistic Callista, but I use headphones in a similar way. I'm socially awkward at the best of times, but if I'm stressed out/nervous and there is a large group of strangers around (like a busy shopping mall for example) I tend to panic if I don't have some music going. It helps me cope with the massively uncomfortable situations like that. I try to make up for the hearing defecit by, literally, having my head on a swivel and wearing my emotionless face.

I'm impressed that you were willing to post this experience up in the hopes of learning how to deal with it in a more appropriate manner.

How do people suggest that we act if we witness a situation like this occuring? I couldn't walk away and leave them to it.

[phractal]

How do people suggest that we act if we witness a situation like this occuring? I couldn't walk away and leave them to it.

I've been in situations where I witnessed that sort of thing and I've handled it differently every time. If the potential vic looks like they can handle themselves, I leave em to it. When it's a big drunk with red flags comming outta his ass, pestering a soft, or what appears to be a soft target, I have sometimes interviened. It depends on whether there are more capable protectors around and how other witness's are paying attention. If there are big, mean looking witness's that aren't even paying attention, then it's up to me again.

I've distracted them long enough for the vic to get away. I've gone out of my way to make it obvious that I was paying attention and have my phone ready to call the cops. I've engaged the drunks head on and told em to piss off. It all depends on the situation.

When I've witnessed physical violence, I tend to make it more physical. And I'm not a big guy. Just a scrappy motherfucker with a very fast blade and a "them or me" attitude. I almost got myself killed one time when I saw a guy grab his girlfriend by the hair and slam her face into his knee. I was a block away down a hill when I saw it and by the time my bag hit the ground, I was already on the guy. He didn't see my knife right away because it was dark, he was drunk, and I was carrying a Kershaw Blackout with the black powder coated blade. He came at me and I guess the edge caught his eye because he stopped. He tried to dart around me, to get to her, but I was doing everything I could to stay between them. My female companion finally made it up the hill and while making sure she was safe, I tripped and guy almost got to me. If he had gotten behind me, god only knows what would have gone down.

I was lucky. That's all there was to it. I regained my possition and held em apart for about 5 minutes until a cop cruiser rolled by and noticed us. Dude took off running and coppers took our statements and ambulance took the girl. A week later, coppers call me wanting me to do a photo montage of the perp. Turns out the girl lied to the cops and gave em her sisters identity and then refused to press charges against the guy. With mine and my companions statements and ID's, they were able to prosecute without her testemony.

I'm still angry that I put my shit on the line and that girl wouldn't even pony up and send that bastard to the can. Dude probably had 50 lbs and 4" on me. Oh well. What are you gonna do...

[jamoni]

How do people suggest that we act if we witness a situation like this occuring? I couldn't walk away and leave them to it.

I've been in situations where I witnessed that sort of thing and I've handled it differently every time. If the potential vic looks like they can handle themselves, I leave em to it. When it's a big drunk with red flags comming outta his ass, pestering a soft, or what appears to be a soft target, I have sometimes interviened. It depends on whether there are more capable protectors around and how other witness's are paying attention. If there are big, mean looking witness's that aren't even paying attention, then it's up to me again.

I've distracted them long enough for the vic to get away. I've gone out of my way to make it obvious that I was paying attention and have my phone ready to call the cops. I've engaged the drunks head on and told em to piss off. It all depends on the situation.

When I've witnessed physical violence, I tend to make it more physical. And I'm not a big guy. Just a scrappy motherfucker with a very fast blade and a "them or me" attitude. I almost got myself killed one time when I saw a guy grab his girlfriend by the hair and slam her face into his knee. I was a block away down a hill when I saw it and by the time my bag hit the ground, I was already on the guy. He didn't see my knife right away because it was dark, he was drunk, and I was carrying a Kershaw Blackout with the black powder coated blade. He came at me and I guess the edge caught his eye because he stopped. He tried to dart around me, to get to her, but I was doing everything I could to stay between them. My female companion finally made it up the hill and while making sure she was safe, I tripped and guy almost got to me. If he had gotten behind me, god only knows what would have gone down.

I was lucky. That's all there was to it. I regained my possition and held em apart for about 5 minutes until a cop cruiser rolled by and noticed us. Dude took off running and coppers took our statements and ambulance took the girl. A week later, coppers call me wanting me to do a photo montage of the perp. Turns out the girl lied to the cops and gave em her sisters identity and then refused to press charges against the guy. With mine and my companions statements and ID's, they were able to prosecute without her testemony.

I'm still angry that I put my shit on the line and that girl wouldn't even pony up and send that bastard to the can. Dude probably had 50 lbs and 4" on me. Oh well. What are you gonna do...

How many trauma plates did you have on?

[Finch]

isn't coppers something they used to say on GI joe


anyway i think they were "just drunks"while i dont think you handled it poorly i wouldn't have given them anything.


in this type of situation id probably just politely say no (while gripping the G26 in my pocket)

sometimes ive just distracted them with small talk too ... what bar they came from.... best places to get girls... you know things drunks talk about

[deMaccusweil]

How many trauma plates did you have on?

[phractal]

How many trauma plates did you have on?

Funny.

I was running lite that night. I had just come from wednesday pool tournament at the local bar. Had probably a pitcher of beer in me. I don't think I could have come up that hill that fast with any added weight.

[Valorius]

On one of my many journeys through the bus system, I sit on a bench, waiting for the bus. I've barely settled in, waiting and listening to a book on tape through my headphones, when two young men approach me. They're about my age, and one of them is carrying a bottle of vodka. Their pants sag to their knees in the much-ridiculed style that shows off one's boxers if one doesn't wear a long shirt.

Upon being given the universal signal for "remove your headphones" (made on the presumption that if I am wearing headphones I must be blasting my music so loudly that I can't hear them), I pull an earbud out and look at them. "Yeah?" I guess they want to ask what time it is, or if their bus has been by yet.

And then they throw me a curveball. One of the guys approaches me and asks for my headphones. Seriously--just comes up and asks for the headphones. His are broken, he explains, so he can't listen to his music.

In a stern voice with a no nonsense look on your face: If you walk away right now, i won't pepper spray you.

[JTNieman]

Has anyone posted phil's "KILL THEM. KILL THEM ALL." xtranormal vid yet?

Because....

[aus.templar]

Has anyone posted phil's "KILL THEM. KILL THEM ALL." xtranormal vid yet?

Because....

Suits the situation quite well... hell it suits EVERY situation well!