Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby crypto » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:20 am

klrvagabond wrote:
crypto wrote:CB does have some technical benefits over the VHF/UHF bands you have access to with a technician class amateur license: Longer range, and the possibility of ionosphere propagation are the big ones.

Just FYI: Tech gets some 10m privs now as well, which is pretty close to CB (11m)...but you can run 200W PEP.


Yeah, When I looked at the band allocation, its a tiny little sliver of the band available to tech. Basically the CW section and a wee little slice of phone, right?

It didnt look very impressive. I'm not in a hurry to get a 10m rig until I pass general.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Bunsen » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:27 am

crypto wrote:
klrvagabond wrote:
crypto wrote:CB does have some technical benefits over the VHF/UHF bands you have access to with a technician class amateur license: Longer range, and the possibility of ionosphere propagation are the big ones.

Just FYI: Tech gets some 10m privs now as well, which is pretty close to CB (11m)...but you can run 200W PEP.


Yeah, When I looked at the band allocation, its a tiny little sliver of the band available to tech. Basically the CW section and a wee little slice of phone, right?

It didnt look very impressive. I'm not in a hurry to get a 10m rig until I pass general.

That "wee little slice of phone" is 200 kHz wide, which is as wide as or wider than the entire phone segment of 160m, 40m, 20m, 17m, or 12m (among the HF phone bands, only 80m and 15m are bigger). It's SSB only, though, so FM-only rigs are no use to techs.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby American_Infidel » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:29 am

That wee sliver of 10m phone is 200 kHZ wide....more than enough to accomodate operators. Most of the traffic heard on 10m phone occurs between 28.300 and 28.500. Lots of PSK activity on 28.120 when the band is open.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Tperkins » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:49 pm

Yeah, illegal for sure... Now, the best way to deal with your location, other than the specified HAM (which I just got, and is so freaking easy), is to get a good 1/4 wave whip antenna on a spring mount, a good SSB radio, and a properly tuned antenna/radio setup.

You could get into 2m HAM with a GOOD radio for about the same price as doing the above (~$250). A 2m Yaesu radio, a good 50" antenna, and a coax/mount runs about that. Also gives much more interoperability with any local radio clubs, ARES/RACES nets, and other 4x4 members.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby terminaltransco » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:21 pm

ok, I'm new on here and actually signed up after seeing this thread. I'm not sure about this FCC stuff, especially based on your reasons for use(they used to stalk us truckers, now once in a blue moon there is one in a plain wrapper at the truck stop looking for guys with to much "fire-in-the-wire") but honestly, unless your being an idiot, they don't care so much, a guy pushing 180 watts through a cb is a small fish.
That being said, here is what I know from experience in relation to Cb's...

I drive truck, so I use one everyday, not feasible to have a ham setup ya know? Mine is not modified for power, though if you wanted to do that, have a pro install a "kicker", which is little more than an amplifier. 80-120 watts at a cb shop on your cobra LTD(I run one too, good radio without the extra BS) will cost 100-150 bucks. DO NOT let some hack jack the power for cheap. By changing out a few resistors/capacitors you can overload the internal circuits for more power, but it sounds like crap, like blown car speakers(essentially the same thing is happening).

Now I started with the stock antenna on the company truck, with a little uniden radio and basic mike. No SWR calibration, no dynamike, just volume,squelch and RF gain. I bought the ltd29, added a 40 dollar antenna and 20 dollar 140 strand coax. The difference was this- rig 1=3/4 mile send receive in flat lands. Rig 2= 12 mile send/receive in flatlands, when I'm in the mountains this drops to 6-8 miles. Since I use it everyday I added a 50 dollar "astatic" mike, which really cleans up my transmissions nicely. You can buy "better" radios (stryker,connex,general lee,galaxy 959) but they have annoying crap like talk-back and roger beeps...silly things that you'd pay for but never need, and for most are incredibly annoying to listen to.

Hope this info means something for ya, most of these guys are right about just going armature with ham or 10 meter, but maybe it doesn't fit your situation? I don't know, but I do know those 10 meter jerks always bleed onto channel 19 trying to make contact with someone 5 states away.(at least I was told they are "10 meter", I'm not sure, I just know they can't here me and they are not one the same freq, since they usually bleed into 19-20 at the same time)

One more thing about the FCC, if you were ever to hit NYC with that cb of yours on, and hear "sweet dick willy" or "hornboy" or "cracka busta"...you would WISH the FCC still cared.....those base station guys are the worst!!! Just be responsible, and ask the parks guys you said youy talked to.... they might have info on their rigs that will help you out.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Tperkins » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:07 pm

terminaltransco wrote:ok, I'm new on here and actually signed up after seeing this thread. I'm not sure about this FCC stuff, especially based on your reasons for use(they used to stalk us truckers, now once in a blue moon there is one in a plain wrapper at the truck stop looking for guys with to much "fire-in-the-wire") but honestly, unless your being an idiot, they don't care so much, a guy pushing 180 watts through a cb is a small fish.
That being said, here is what I know from experience in relation to Cb's...

I drive truck, so I use one everyday, not feasible to have a ham setup ya know? Mine is not modified for power, though if you wanted to do that, have a pro install a "kicker", which is little more than an amplifier. 80-120 watts at a cb shop on your cobra LTD(I run one too, good radio without the extra BS) will cost 100-150 bucks. DO NOT let some hack jack the power for cheap. By changing out a few resistors/capacitors you can overload the internal circuits for more power, but it sounds like crap, like blown car speakers(essentially the same thing is happening).

Now I started with the stock antenna on the company truck, with a little uniden radio and basic mike. No SWR calibration, no dynamike, just volume,squelch and RF gain. I bought the ltd29, added a 40 dollar antenna and 20 dollar 140 strand coax. The difference was this- rig 1=3/4 mile send receive in flat lands. Rig 2= 12 mile send/receive in flatlands, when I'm in the mountains this drops to 6-8 miles. Since I use it everyday I added a 50 dollar "astatic" mike, which really cleans up my transmissions nicely. You can buy "better" radios (stryker,connex,general lee,galaxy 959) but they have annoying crap like talk-back and roger beeps...silly things that you'd pay for but never need, and for most are incredibly annoying to listen to.

Hope this info means something for ya, most of these guys are right about just going armature with ham or 10 meter, but maybe it doesn't fit your situation? I don't know, but I do know those 10 meter jerks always bleed onto channel 19 trying to make contact with someone 5 states away.(at least I was told they are "10 meter", I'm not sure, I just know they can't here me and they are not one the same freq, since they usually bleed into 19-20 at the same time)

One more thing about the FCC, if you were ever to hit NYC with that cb of yours on, and hear "sweet dick willy" or "hornboy" or "cracka busta"...you would WISH the FCC still cared.....those base station guys are the worst!!! Just be responsible, and ask the parks guys you said youy talked to.... they might have info on their rigs that will help you out.


Informative post, +1. Yeah, good coax and antennas are what make or break a CB setup in my opinion. Oh, and yeah, sometimes people using high power simplex on 10-meter channels can bleed through to CB channels, but it isnt often. CB's run on 11-meter, which is why they do bleed through, but most 10-Meter communications is High-Frequency stuff that is "intended" to skip of the atmostphere and hopefully not interfere with stuff like CB, but if they operate near the edge of the 10-meter and 11-meter bands, some bleeding through can occur. I agree, some of the base operators on CB can be so damn annoying...I usually run on the middle channels with the squelch set on low for talking to someone I convoy with, if they dont have a HAM, or we dont/cant use FRS/GMRS radios.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby ZombieSoldier01 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:24 am

well i guess i should update this.

i installed the cb as is and used my 3 foot firestik attached to the back of the cab below the window. I SWR tuned it, and it sends and recieves well in the mountains. not as well as i would like but it works. i even talked to the forest service guys, which almost became a bad thing. they ended up coming out to my campsite as we were getting ready to build a fire. luckily they got to us before we lit it. it would have been a $5,000 fine per adult since unknown to me we were in a stage 2 fire ban... opps.

but anyways i want to get a 48" firestik to get it a little bit further above the cab and my stacks, as well as get some good coax. here is the install of the antenna.


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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby TacAir » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:58 am

Looks like quite the crew you have there!

You might put a tennis ball on the ant where it can (will) beat the crap out of your paint job on the rear of the cab.

Thanks for the pics!
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby ZombieSoldier01 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:04 am

no problem man, and the firestik has yet to hit the cab... YET! i might have to try that trick out though, even though the truck needs a repaint... does it effect reception at all?

yeah i have a brood of 3 kids, a wife, 2 dogs (boxer and a weiner dog) 2 guinnea pigs, and a rat... haha
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby crypto » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:10 pm

No, the tennis ball wont mess up your antenna performance at all. I had a steel whip on my tacoma and neglected to do that, and it had rubbed the paint raw in a year's time. Its a good idea.

If you really want to increase your antenna's performance, it would work better on the roof where the front radiation pattern isnt obstructed by the cab.

However, thats not very practical on a jacked up truck, for clearance reasons, so you may be stuck with what you have. If you're mounting on the bed, the only way I can see to make it work better would be to add a second antenna in an array, and put them on the forward corners of the bed.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby ZombieSoldier01 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:20 pm

crypto wrote:No, the tennis ball wont mess up your antenna performance at all. I had a steel whip on my tacoma and neglected to do that, and it had rubbed the paint raw in a year's time. Its a good idea.

If you really want to increase your antenna's performance, it would work better on the roof where the front radiation pattern isnt obstructed by the cab.

However, thats not very practical on a jacked up truck, for clearance reasons, so you may be stuck with what you have. If you're mounting on the bed, the only way I can see to make it work better would be to add a second antenna in an array, and put them on the forward corners of the bed.


its not jacked up just a leveling kit and 35's. but i see what you are saying. that's why i want to upgrade to a 48" so i can get another 12" cleared above the cab.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Tater Raider » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:15 am

I completely agree with everyone who has commented on antenna performance being where it's at and how important tuning the antenna is. I also second what crypto said about antenna location and would like to add that going either route would likely get you more out of the system than getting a longer antenna. The reason is all mobile antennas worth a tinker's d*** have some sort of load on them so that it acts like a ¼ wave antenna. That said, a longer antenna, properly tuned, will outperform a shorter one 9 times out of 10, so if you can afford it then go for it.

Might I suggest going with a magnetic mount so you can put the antenna on the roof near the back when you need it and take it down when you park it (so you aren't advertising the radio unattended in your truck) or pull into an area with low clearance?

Finally, if you don't relocate the antenna then do try to ensure that at least ⅔ of the antenna is higher than the roof so that performance isn't affected too much.

I'm very happy where this thread ended up considering where it started out. :)
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby SteveD » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:17 am

UHF and VHF repeaters are your friend.....I did a quick search for 2m repeaters in CO and found a boat load.Maybe look about a dual band mobile?
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Tperkins » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:46 pm

crypto wrote:No, the tennis ball wont mess up your antenna performance at all. I had a steel whip on my tacoma and neglected to do that, and it had rubbed the paint raw in a year's time. Its a good idea.

If you really want to increase your antenna's performance, it would work better on the roof where the front radiation pattern isnt obstructed by the cab.

However, thats not very practical on a jacked up truck, for clearance reasons, so you may be stuck with what you have. If you're mounting on the bed, the only way I can see to make it work better would be to add a second antenna in an array, and put them on the forward corners of the bed.


Crypto- If by array you mean co-phasing, you cant really properly co-phase unless you were to extend the antennas out further than the bed corners, because it wont work with the shorter distance between them. Also, for someone looking for reception in mountainous terrain, it could be very detrimental to them, as it becomes a front to back directional patten. Great for the highway truckers, but not so much in this application. Anenna on the roof though, that's the best way to go. What you might want to do, as the way im going to go with my HAM, is have a roof mount and an alternate (fender,bed) mount. The alternate would give good clearance and could be used around town or the like, but you can switch to the other much better mount in the sticks where you dont worry as much about clearance other than trees and limbs. Best of both worlds, just have to change based on the situation; if you use quick disconnects, it would make it even easier.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby CitizenZ » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:33 pm

Why do people think that two antennas work better than one? They don't. You cannot achieve a co-phase array with less than a 1/4 wave distance. You want 1/2 wave, but anything over 1/4 will work. Less than 1/4 is a waste of time and actually an obstruction to the other antenna. That's 9 feet minimum.

One good large whip in the center high will way outperform the short dual antennas.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Tater Raider » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:31 am

CitizenZ wrote:Why do people think that two antennas work better than one? They don't. You cannot achieve a co-phase array with less than a 1/4 wave distance. You want 1/2 wave, but anything over 1/4 will work. Less than 1/4 is a waste of time and actually an obstruction to the other antenna. That's 9 feet minimum.

One good large whip in the center high will way outperform the short dual antennas.

I'd like to share a couple links.

Radiation patterns on trucker rigs (co phased mobile antennas spaced closely), and detailed write up: click me.
More information on trucker rigs, including detail on how the ground plane affects things: click me.
Radiation patterns on co phased arrays (co phased base station antennas spaced further apart), and detailed write up: click me.
More information on co phased arrays and radiation patterns: click me.

Short version: CitizenZ, at the spacing you mention you are talking about a co phased array for a base station and I completely and without reservation agree with what you are saying in that context. I also believe that you and I agree that a properly tuned single antenna mounted in the correct location and with a good ground plane will out perform just about any trucker rig. I respectfully submit to you that if you like the look, and we can agree that some do it for looks, or cannot centrally locate an antenna due to clearance issues the trucker rig is designed to overcome the problems that mounting a single antenna on one side of the vehicle can create on the transmit side of things. The performance isn't quite as good because it's correcting a problem, and tuning both antennas is more than twice the work, but it's in the ballpark of the single, central antenna.

I know that last bit we disagree on, but I hope you give the information in the links another look. The links on the arrays totally back what you say on antennas spaced further apart than 13½ feet (4.11 meters if you're into metric).
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby PoorImpulseControl » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:51 pm

I guess I'm confused as to why you don't just get your tech and throw a 2 meter rig in the truck? There are repeaters on top of Cheyenne, Pikes Peak, and up in Woodland Park. Seriously, the machine on top of Pikes Peak is almost considered a "crown jewel" in the amateur radio community due to it's fantastic HAAT (height above average terrain)
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby ZombieSoldier01 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:28 pm

PoorImpulseControl wrote:I guess I'm confused as to why you don't just get your tech and throw a 2 meter rig in the truck? There are repeaters on top of Cheyenne, Pikes Peak, and up in Woodland Park. Seriously, the machine on top of Pikes Peak is almost considered a "crown jewel" in the amateur radio community due to it's fantastic HAAT (height above average terrain)


you know that is a valid good point. i should look into that but i wont be in springs area much longer. I am PCS'ing to Fort Stewart Georgia in late February
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby TacAir » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:36 pm

greggk wrote:
PoorImpulseControl wrote:I guess I'm confused as to why you don't just get your tech and throw a 2 meter rig in the truck? There are repeaters on top of Cheyenne, Pikes Peak, and up in Woodland Park. Seriously, the machine on top of Pikes Peak is almost considered a "crown jewel" in the amateur radio community due to it's fantastic HAAT (height above average terrain)


you know that is a valid good point. i should look into that but i wont be in springs area much longer. I am PCS'ing to Fort Stewart Georgia in late February


OVer 300 in that AO
http://www.artscipub.com/repeaters/states/Georgia.asp

ANd as you drive cross country, it's nice to be able to chat/ask about local road conditions/traffic/good eats./

Just say'n - I won't go waywhere without at least a 2M rig. GOod way to meet people in the new area as well.

BTW - thank you for your service!
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Tater Raider » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:05 am

Since we are going there the question I have, and please pardon my ignorance on this one, is how does the 2m stack up against the CB on stuff like local traffic, finding a hole-in-the-wall cafe with great eats, and keeping tabs on what the LEO's might be doing in the area? My experience on CB radios is they are handy tools to have at times and at other times are full of folk doing the radio equivalent of 4chan. For some things the CB is mandatory, like to be a member of the local 4x4 club, so I'm getting one anyways but would the 2m be worth the added expense?
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby ZombieSoldier01 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:11 am

good question
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby zommoz10 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:36 am

Tater Raider wrote:Since we are going there the question I have, and please pardon my ignorance on this one, is how does the 2m stack up against the CB on stuff like local traffic, finding a hole-in-the-wall cafe with great eats, and keeping tabs on what the LEO's might be doing in the area? My experience on CB radios is they are handy tools to have at times and at other times are full of folk doing the radio equivalent of 4chan. For some things the CB is mandatory, like to be a member of the local 4x4 club, so I'm getting one anyways but would the 2m be worth the added expense?


greggk wrote:good question



The thing with CB, is generally speaking, you can send out a mating call on channel 19 and quite likely find someone in the area to ask about traffic, where the smokey bears are etc etc.
With a CB, you don't need to know where to tune in - that is, you don't need to know specific frequencies of repeaters or any PL tones, all you need to know is channel 19, channel 19, channel 19. Easy enough.
Of course there are a number of drawbacks with CB and there's no guarantee that you will find someone to talk, especially if you're in a remote area or away from major highways. But you asked a specific question so...

As for the VHF ham band, there is a calling channel and occasionally you can throw your call sign out there and get a response but there are far fewer people monitoring it and if you did get a response, they could be 20 miles away. They're probably sitting in their shack and don't have the slightest idea where the cops are setting up a speed trap or what's caused the 4 mile pileup on the interstate. But I guarantee you they WILL know where the good eatin' is at! :lol: The chance of making a contact on the 2m calling channel isn't as good as it used to be. I often monitor the calling frequency when I'm on a long road trip. On rare occasions, I'll make a brief contact with someone else who's on the road, usually they're going in the opposite direction and we don't get long.
Now there's a lot of people monitoring 2m, but you'll have to know where the repeaters are and if you're travelling and don't have a repeater guide to find out the frequencies and pl tones, your only option is to scan for conversations in progress.
2m (FM) is far more reliable, especially in or around big cities where theres a lot of noise and interference that impacts CB (AM), but again, you asked a specific question about travel information and so I'll keep it at that. By the way, just as a side note, a lot of hams get annoyed when people hold long conversations on the 2m calling frequency as it is intended to be a calling channel like marine ch 16 and have conversations move to some other frequency. CB is, shall we say, less structured in terms of etiquette.

Edit to tell you a quick story of when I had a memorable conversation on the 2m calling channel... In 2004 I was briefly living in florida, in the area that got two direct hits from catagory 2-3 hurricanes 2 weeks apart. I had evacuated down to the south and therefore did not get stuck in the traffic from the mass exodus that went north. I was able to get back home before everyone else. The power was out, it looked like a war zone, local repeaters were down, cell phones were down. I made a contact on the 2m calling channel as I was driving on the interstate to someone who was about 20 miles away in their shack and we were able to have a reliable signal the entire time and I was able to relay conditions of the roads and everything else that I saw to the other station and anyone who was listening.
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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby Radio guy » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:45 am

Hey greggk, did ya get that Firestick at Sunshine Radio? :wink:
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greggk wrote:well i guess i should update this.

i installed the cb as is and used my 3 foot firestik attached to the back of the cab below the window. I SWR tuned it, and it sends and recieves well in the mountains. not as well as i would like but it works. i even talked to the forest service guys, which almost became a bad thing. they ended up coming out to my campsite as we were getting ready to build a fire. luckily they got to us before we lit it. it would have been a $5,000 fine per adult since unknown to me we were in a stage 2 fire ban... opps.

but anyways i want to get a 48" firestik to get it a little bit further above the cab and my stacks, as well as get some good coax. here is the install of the antenna.


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Re: Touchy subject.. Tuning cb's

Postby lumberjack33 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:21 am

Yes I agree getting a ham ticket is the way to go. I do use both though, but with all the 2 meter repeaters, you can really talk quite far, even with a handheld! Anyhow, I want to share a CB radio link you may want to check out. The CB Radio CLub http://www.cbradioclub.com is probably the best site right now for information or just getting your feet wet. I advise you check it out and ask some of the other members questions and for advice.
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