The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

[ZombieGranny]

- I don't shove, I slip past. A firm 'excuse me' and if they don't get the message polite hand on the back/shoulder normally shifts anyone foolish enough to get in the way of my purposeful walk. Thankfully slipping past is easy enough most of the time, just map your path carefully. Don't weave in and out of people too much though.
Jack

Good post, but this ^^^ jumped out at me.

If you touch me or anyone with me, politely or not, you will get noticed and remembered.

[Cpt_Jack]

Awesome writing man not only great ideas and a great topic, but really good writing lol. I would just like to add, probably to the tactical side, if you are running, you never blend in. If any of you are in an airport take note of who you notice first, the people running to catch flights. We train (being gray right now lol "we") to pick off the runners first. Also unless you are hip deep in "holy fucking shit" DO NOT RUN! you make yourself a target. Again, probs , on your entire post.

Agree though I do love running in public places for some reason... I used to work at an airport for a summer job and running up and down the terminal to get to places fast was part of the job, I *always* got stared at doing it.

Good post, but this ^^^ jumped out at me.

If you touch me or anyone with me, politely or not, you will get noticed and remembered.

Depends where you live, here in Asia where the concept of 'personal space' is not firmly rooted in the culture then touching someone is not only normal but sometimes even expected in certain situations. Put bluntly, they live on top of each other here and are used to it... That said you are right, you will get noticed far more so it's better to avoid it unless someone simply won't move becuase they can't hear you/is distracted/are stupid/etc.

The way I do it is garnered from every Friday prayer service at my Mosque. Everyone is packed in tight and walking around is hard; if you need to get somewhere you do is stretch your arm out in front of you a bit, put your hand straight (all fingers pointing forwards) and if you need to get between people the hand coupled with an 'excuse me' acts as a sort of 'divider' and it's like parting the Red Sea It is of course a cultural thing but I think most cultures have something similar if not they need it

[TDW586]

Depends where you live, here in Asia where the concept of 'personal space' is not firmly rooted in the culture then touching someone is not only normal but sometimes even expected in certain situations. Put bluntly, they live on top of each other here and are used to it... That said you are right, you will get noticed far more so it's better to avoid it unless someone simply won't move becuase they can't hear you/is distracted/are stupid/etc.

The way I do it is garnered from every Friday prayer service at my Mosque. Everyone is packed in tight and walking around is hard; if you need to get somewhere you do is stretch your arm out in front of you a bit, put your hand straight (all fingers pointing forwards) and if you need to get between people the hand coupled with an 'excuse me' acts as a sort of 'divider' and it's like parting the Red Sea It is of course a cultural thing but I think most cultures have something similar if not they need it

A very good point. One of the first things I learned when I started studying verbal deescalation techniques was that while the first thing you want to do with an angry Westerner (in most cases) is to back off and give them some space, the exact opposite is true of some Eastern and Mid-Eastern cultures. For an Arab, for example, standing closer and even making physical contact (hand on the shoulder, whatever) is expected and shows that you're paying attention to them and respect them.

[rat-a-tat-tat]

The way I do it is garnered from every Friday prayer service at my Mosque. Everyone is packed in tight and walking around is hard; if you need to get somewhere you do is stretch your arm out in front of you a bit, put your hand straight (all fingers pointing forwards) and if you need to get between people the hand coupled with an 'excuse me' acts as a sort of 'divider' and it's like parting the Red Sea It is of course a cultural thing but I think most cultures have something similar if not they need it

I do this all the time and it works in the US too, so I don't think it's a cultural thing.
It's about as universal as the pee pee dance, hahaha

[Cpt_Jack]

A very good point. One of the first things I learned when I started studying verbal deescalation techniques was that while the first thing you want to do with an angry Westerner (in most cases) is to back off and give them some space, the exact opposite is true of some Eastern and Mid-Eastern cultures. For an Arab, for example, standing closer and even making physical contact (hand on the shoulder, whatever) is expected and shows that you're paying attention to them and respect them.

Spot on, I just spent two years in the sandpit and it taught me a lot of that and took a lot of getting used to since I am *not* the touchy feely person, first time my freind slipped an arm around my waist I nearly thumped him for being a pervert... The other thing is languages and so on; Arabic in particular is very 'harsh' and shouty, that guy 'shouting' at you could just be happy to see you and expressing joy, you could have just run over his dog... many a mistake has been made by self in that situation. Best example has to be attending Friday prayers at a Mosque and hearing a very fiery sermon from the Imam. Seriously, he seemed pissed at something, I couldn't quite get what he was saying but it sounded very much like fire and brimstone! Then up steps the guy to do the translation; 'Today the Imam was talking about parking at the Mosque and how it is much better that you all park up at the new car park so we don't block the road outside...' yep, it was about parking regs Chinese is similar, we have a Chinese rag-and-bone man who drives up and down in his van calling out, first time I heard it I thought 'CRAP!! FLOOD ALERT!!' or it was some propaganda truck calling for an uprising. The other thing about Chinese is the tone is very important, telling someone to piss off or telling them you are their freind can be very easy to confuse due to the tone of your voice. Aren't cultures fun

And rat-a-tat-tat, someone whacks me next time I'm in the US for doing that, you get the blame

[Rugger]

Any how one fella and I got to talking and he mentioned he had a rancho in a central American country and that his family plans to drive south, not fly if they need to get there.

He stated "Western ie North American" women traveling south need to be "grey" when in the south. This is due to them being use to making eye contact with any male. Males in south of the border take affront when women are direct in their gaze when dealing with authorities.

I thought this was very interesting. I can see that this may apply when north of the border and dealing with latino/hispanic/muslim or orthodox men.

I call BS on your so called expert with the "rancho" (wtf is that?) - the guy may own property in Central America, but clearly has no clue about Latin America to make such really stupid and insulting remarks. This guy also probably thinks that Spanish is the most widely spoken language "south of the border" - it is not (try portugues).

Exactly when did Central and South America become "Un-Western?" They were colonized by Europeans, have a higher percentage of Christians than the US, look predominantly to Europe (Spain, Portugal, France, and Germany), and the U.S. for culture. Gosh, traveling in South America reminds me more of Western Europe than many geographically European countries. Economically: 40% of our trade is North/South; Mexico, Colombia and Venezuela sell more oil to the U.S. than the Middle East; and Latinos spend 51 cents of every dollar on U.S. goods and services. Heck, Panama City in Panama has a skyline that rivals most US cities. I guess the "LATIN" in Latin America comes from Egypt or Kenya...

And the statement that "Males in south of the border take affront when women are direct in their gaze when dealing with authorities" is so insulting to be laughable. It is also a good way for women to get into "real trouble" by not to standing their ground when appropriate. There is certainly a fine line here, and you have to know the country, the immediate location, the circumstances and of course the "authorities" but the "direct gaze" bit is just ridiculous. Here is a point to ponder, there have been a lot of female heads of state in Latin America - Argentina and Brasil currently have female presidents - the US has yet to elect a woman as President.

Bottom line: Latin America is a huge, and very diverse place (demographics, culture, religion etc.) - if you want to be grey (in the UK), or gray (in the U.S.); you better know what the local norms are, not some BS on a public forum...

Busto, have you traveled anywhere other than cities in Mexico? I'm guessing no. The guy you are going after is correct. I don't know about big cities, like what you would think of here in the U.S., but in the majority of Mexico women stay quiet and don't make eye contact. If being talked to by a LEO in Mexico (which already means you are in a shit-ton of trouble) don't make eye contact. In Mexico, it's considered disrespectful to look someone in the eye if you are being dressed down for something.

As far as the language, from the U.S./Mexico border to the tip of South America the predominant language is Spanish. In South America it's about half Spanish and half Portuguese. And the Portuguese is predominantly only in Brazil. The neighboring countries speak it, but only for trade.

[Ufdyixcaff]

Busto, have you traveled anywhere other than cities in Mexico? I'm guessing no. The guy you are going after is correct. I don't know about big cities, like what you would think of here in the U.S., but in the majority of Mexico women stay quiet and don't make eye contact. If being talked to by a LEO in Mexico (which already means you are in a shit-ton of trouble) don't make eye contact. In Mexico, it's considered disrespectful to look someone in the eye if you are being dressed down for something.

Wait Wait Wait... How can you ask "have you traveled anywhere other than cities in Mexico" (emphasis mine) and then proceed to go off on a misogynistic rant about women from Mexico as though you are dropping some knowledge on the person you JUST accused of not having been outside Mexico? Or is it just the "city" part of the question you you are going to point to in your rebuttal, as though its completely incomprehensible that strong women come from rural areas?

Guess what? People having confidence is not "disrespectful". Lots of cultures - including your own - find the idea of people staring at you to be disrespectful. Making eye contact? Not the same thing as staring.

Yes, there are places where being a woman means youre expected to compose yourself a bit more demurely than a man would. Thats not in question. But Mexico hardly holds the lock on the subject. Its not like you have to wear a burka to visit, ya know?

Besides that, Mexico - even if it does fall into your stereotypical concepts - is one of over 20 countries in "Latin America" - which is what Busto was talking about. Mexico is not Ciudad Juarez and Latin America is not Mexico. There is a lot of variation in the world "south of the border" and its WAY too big to be bundled up into some small minded box.






And for what its worth, Ive known many Mexican women. "Quiet" is not a description I would use for them.

[KnifeStyle]

As part of my major, I study body language and posturing throughout cultures. This can vary from how to adapt public speaking methods to personal space differences, and analyzing background from gestures. Here are some red flags that have helped me out abroad and domestically. I can be wrong, tossing these out anyway, use your discretion.

-Do you ever sit with one leg crossed onto the opposite leg? This is a common way to sit casually. It's known as the 'American Figure 4', because for some reason this sitting posture is only seen throughout North America. Back in WW2 German Intelligence trained soldiers to spot anyone who sat like this because they were either Americans or had spent time in the States. Add on the risk of exposing your heel in Muslim countries, not a way to sit abroad.

-People with a background with weapons develop posture quirks from their training. For instance, whenever they carry something in their strong hand, the other arm becomes poised and the weaker side becomes dominant, trailing the strong side to protect whatever it's holding. It's not some mall ninja stance, it's just natural to keep your gun close and avoid bumping into people or things when you're armed. This carries over into everyday life, soon enough you may do the same thing when you're carrying a stapler at work. Likewise, when suddenly approached, the right hand will move slightly towards a CCW. Newbies tend to pat their pockets or side habitually to make sure whatever they're carrying is still there, this tends to be how I spot people carrying clipped pocketknives.

-Boot camp trains some subtle features that some may never realize. People with long time spent in formations and bearing busters eventually stop widening their eyes in the usual 'Huh?' gesture, preferring a tighter gaze when in public. They save the wilder expressions for in private, unless they're gregarious. I've only seen this in Western and African cultures, can't apply it worldwide. I seem to attract a lot of 'war heroes' with stories to tell, and I eventually paid close attention to their eye-set if something caught their attention. The ones who had a sterner stare typically had been in the military but were exaggerating slightly, the gawkers very rarely had actual service time.

-Polished shoes tell tales. Are they well-maintained but he seems to be okay getting them dirty? Are they black mirrors that he keeps pristine? Is he well dressed but leaves his shoes dull? When Asians bow...they're looking at your shoes, and do judge accordingly whether intentionally or not. Some dating studies have even pointed out that women check the back of a guy's shoes if he's walking away, along with other obvious areas. My own personal experience: I can tell when a shoe is spit-shined, brush polished, or when they just rub on those horrible 'quick-shine' sponges. The quick-shiners are in this to impress, but are either impatient or clueless when it comes to normal polishing. This look is ultra-shiny, but looks wiped on and artificial if you look more than a second.

-How do you breathe and speak? Through the diaphragm or through your upper chest? Easiest to spot when some one is sitting down because if you breathe through the chest your shoulders will rise and fall. Some one who breathes through their diaphragm is probably an athlete, actor, singer, martial artist, or even the type who meditates or does yoga. This changes vocal quality quite a bit, it projects the voice and adds quality to your resonation. Hang around enough performers, you'll notice they speak clearer and present better. If you really want to avoid people noticing you while speaking, breathe through your chest and let it be a tad nasal, but not too falsetto. I'm a shoestring-income voice actor who does narration and amateur character work, people used to turn around in restaurants when they hear me talking because of my abnormally radio-sounding voice. I learned to breathe and inflect differently to blend in and make my voice carry less. When I didn't, people would keep looking at me because I sound incredibly rehearsed and overly grand when I say the simplest things, even though I'm a hundred twenty pound white guy with a mullet.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Those are some good points, a few of which I've noticed myself over the years. Some others I've noticed, that are not so much gray-man oriented, but help me to avoid problems, are; people who walk with OUT swinging their arms, and are unencumbered- seems to be typical of the (clinically diagnosed) schizophrenic types. I noticed this while working in the Developmentally Disabled care field (I was in the Maintenance dept.) Following up on what I'd noticed, I found a pretty reliable way to spot folks who are not working on the same frequency as most others. Not all of them are dangerous, but information is power- any advance warning is good.

People who walk with certain characteristics, such as: walking with 'purpose', eyes ahead and steady, should be watched or avoided- they seem to be folks who are pissed about something, and you want to avoid that sort of entanglement. Walking with purpose, eyes ahead, but scanning around, are often either currently in, or have been military. This can be a plus or minus, depending on your situation. A similar walk and behavior is also noticeable in law enforcement- again, it's a plus or minus thing, but when I was younger, and less law abiding, all I can say is, I knew a cop when I saw one. Nowadays, the old habit of spotting them is still there, but not the nervousness

[Vel454]

Anyone notice a change in how they seem to be perceived around strangers, while being out with their family?

3 Years ago, I wasn't married and didn't have any kids. I'm a little over 6'1" and 275lbs, pretty stocky from working a labor job and being an outdoors enthusiast. But anyway, I remember back when I didn't have the family I do now, Little has changed in my appearence, minus the wedding ring. But I've noticed a different 'responce' to my presense by strangers during certain times. For example, if it were just me walking through a narrow isle at the store, and another guy was walking towards me, we'd do the typical twist of the shoulders to make room. If someone were to accidently bump into me or something, I might get an apologetic-toned "Oop, Hey." with a nod.

Now, even if my wife and kids are a few feet away from me, I've noticed that guys will physically walk around us, instead of making us squish out of our walking formation. If they accidently bump into me, they'll do a quick glance across me and my family and rather quickly give an "Oh I'm sorry!". Or picture hanging out with a few friends at the store, and your spread over a 10-15' area. Most people would walk through you to get to the place they're wanting to go. That was the norm untill I got my family with me, and even if there is ample room for someone to walk between us, most guys will go the extra distance to walk around our 'group'.

I think when you have a family, (I can only speak from the father/husband side of things) your 'presence of confidence' and/or 'personal space' really increases. While walking through the store with my family, we'll pass a guy walking towards us, and he'll intentionally walk to the side of the isle, easily leaving 3-5 feet of space between him and us and will give me a friendly 'Hey guy, just passing through' type nod. I've wondered if some people instinctually give out this "I'm the pappa bear and this is my family, keep your distance" energy to other people nearby, even subconciously, and do we pick it up from others too?

Anyone else notice this? Share/discuss.

[BELIEVER]

Interesting point vel! I have totally noticed this type of "bigger bubble" when I am out with my wife and two kids. I think that it is because we unknowingly give off a - Don't *@#& with us look! We know that if someone makes a threatening move toward anyone in our group, protection instinct is going to kick in. Ultimately that vibe shows in our posture and movement.

[KnightoftheRoc]

I've noticed some changes along that line. When I was single, it was almost impossible to catch a girl's eye- if you look at my avatar, picture that with dark hair instead of grey- you can see why. I got married, wore the ring, and all of a sudden, women are all over me.

But, as a parent, out with the family, I think you're giving off a protector vibe, and people pick up on that. It's not so much YOU, but the fact that you're there as the protector, and most people aren't gonna want to mess with that. It's a lot like the "never mess with the cub if mama bear is around" thing- there's nothing fiercer than a parent protecting their child. Even when your 'child' is all grown up.

example: I noticed a bruise on my daughter's arm, at a time when she and her then boyfriend were having some problems. I grabbed her arm (below the bruise), and immediately demanded to know where she got it. Turned out she'd had an 'altercation' with some other girl at a club, but then she tweaked to where my mind was at, and started telling me "Oh! No, Dad, no- he didn't do it, no!" I must have had blood in my eye, because even SHE was scared! Then I felt better, when she followed it up with "If he had done it, I'd kill him myself!" Yup, I raised her up right.

[Vel454]

I've noticed some changes along that line. When I was single, it was almost impossible to catch a girl's eye- if you look at my avatar, picture that with dark hair instead of grey- you can see why. I got married, wore the ring, and all of a sudden, women are all over me.

But, as a parent, out with the family, I think you're giving off a protector vibe, and people pick up on that. It's not so much YOU, but the fact that you're there as the protector, and most people aren't gonna want to mess with that. It's a lot like the "never mess with the cub if mama bear is around" thing- there's nothing fiercer than a parent protecting their child. Even when your 'child' is all grown up.

example: I noticed a bruise on my daughter's arm, at a time when she and her then boyfriend were having some problems. I grabbed her arm (below the bruise), and immediately demanded to know where she got it. Turned out she'd had an 'altercation' with some other girl at a club, but then she tweaked to where my mind was at, and started telling me "Oh! No, Dad, no- he didn't do it, no!" I must have had blood in my eye, because even SHE was scared! Then I felt better, when she followed it up with "If he had done it, I'd kill him myself!" Yup, I raised her up right.

I 100% agree. I think there's a vague feeling you get while being on the other side of the fence, that if you were an ass to the guy's wife or kids or... insert XYZ whatever here, and he shoved your ass to the ground or something, the majority of on-lookers wouldn't look at the father/husband as a hot head, as much as the "intruder" on the ground being a dumbass to get himself in that situation. It's only natural that a parent will protect their child with wounded-lion-like ferocity. And if you do something dumb enough to trigger that responce, a lot of people around you, that would normally intervein under normal circumstances, are, well, going to turn a blind eye to the lion mauling, leaving you in your own self-created mess.

[BELIEVER]

I'm glad that other parents feel the same as I. Ain't that a funny thing Knight, women know notice you because you are happily married and have children! My wife lets me have it any time that happens, and I haven't the slightest clue why. Thanks for letting me know what lies ahead with my daughter, (she is only 12 now) I get this feeling that I will be interrogating potential dates at gunpoint! The reason that I think that I give off a defensive vibe is that I CC. I know it makes me more aware of what people are doing around me and our clan. Invisible? Maybe not, but I surely do not try to attract any unwanted attention.

[acropolis5]

As to the "family protection look", I'm certain that we all show it and that people react on some level. But, don't ignore the simplier explanation (Occam's Razor and all that): Most people are generally polite and have had family experiences. They don't violate the family unit and they give you a wider birth with little kids because its polite.

[ZombieGranny]

Women are all over you because you are Alpha male of your apparently well-taken-care-of tribe.
One Alpha male may attract others of the same type, hence the female response.

Put simply...
You are a successful husband and father, and likely attract single males of the same type.
Are there any more at home like you?

[KnightoftheRoc]

pssst- I think ZG means you...

Being separated and fighting for a divorce, I think I'm out of the competition. Tho, I've noticed that women tend to notice a man who is happily involved in a relationship. I don't pretend to understand why, I just notice things. Until I met my fiancee', I couldn't get arrested- after, all of a sudden, I notice I'm getting noticed. I'll never understand the female mind.

[Ad'lan]

pssst- I think ZG means you...

Being separated and fighting for a divorce, I think I'm out of the competition. Tho, I've noticed that women tend to notice a man who is happily involved in a relationship. I don't pretend to understand why, I just notice things. Until I met my fiancee', I couldn't get arrested- after, all of a sudden, I notice I'm getting noticed. I'll never understand the female mind.

If she thinks he's good enough for her... more than likely he's desirable, so maybe he's good enough for me.

At least, that how mating behaviour was explained to me, when studying evolution, only 10% of males in the species* got to mate, but more than 90% of females.

*The Species I was studying, not to be used as a generalisation, some species are much more even, some even more disproportionate.

So I'd not be surprised to see it happen in humans, most other parts of human mating behaviour has similar analouges.

[ZombieGranny]

It isn't just women.
I used to be used as lure and wing man in gay bars.

No action at all until I would come in, in my zip-front skin-tight catsuit (I had two, a black one with a silver hip-belt and a plushy white one). All of a sudden gay guys three deep around our area.

edited for typo

[KnightoftheRoc]

It isn't just women.
I used to be used as lure and wing man in gay bars.

No action at all until I would come in, in my zip-front skin-tight catsuit (I had two, a black one with a silver hip-belt and a plushy white one). All of a sudden gay guys three deep around our area.

edited for typo

Granny has a PAST!

[KnifeStyle]

...Did the plushy one or the black one work better? I'm a Sociology major. We care.

[ZombieGranny]

The plushy one.
They all wanted to touch it.

[squinty]

I had a girlfriend who moonlighted as an exotic dancer junior year. A girl's gotta eat. She got her best tips when she wore plush leopard skin 3 inch heels. Customers would tip in order to pet her shoes.

[KnightoftheRoc]

wow, this thread took a left turn here, huh?