Vibram Five Fingers (VFF)

[TDW586]

Wow...I liked the first season, but I hadn't seen that. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Fuckin' A.

[comms]

I've had V5F for about 3 years, long before they were on the retail market, sold by Vibram marketeers out of side offices. I got hundred of hours of wear in them. Fit is the most important aspect, do not go by normal shoe size. While people can wear them all day they are made to be a short term wear or training aid to transition from heel striking to mid foot, fore foot running. As to the OP question on using with a 40-50 pack, ARE YOU EFFING NUTS? Seriously that is way out its intended purpose. They provide zero ankle support and very little support or protection for the flexor longus tendons on the bottom of the foot, which are very easy to strain if the foot hasn't adapted to the new mode of travel.

Anything is possible and YMMV, I have seen people run road marathons in them and run the grand canyon in them, but V5F are not made to be used under pack load. They are designed for yoga, river crossings, cross-fit exercises, running drills.

[gravediggerfour]

So what your saying is people can't carry 50-60 lbs barefoot? Just asking. Not that I'm fixint to go for a 12 miler with a 60 lb ruck and some fivefigers but if your have conditioned your body for it why not???

[praharin]

Anything is possible and YMMV, I have seen people run road marathons in them and run the grand canyon in them, but V5F are not made to be used under pack load. They are designed for yoga, river crossings, cross-fit exercises, running drills.

So I guess me running my 50+ pounds overweight ass 8-10 miles with a 25 pound pack on is something that shouldn't be possible without injury? The worst I have hurt myself in my V5Fs was kicking a jutting up sidewalk segment. The freeze/thaw cycle plays hell on them around here. That is not a problem with the shoes, it was my lack of awareness due to padded shoes for my whole life.

V5Fs were designed to simulate barefoot conditions while offering your feet some protection from the modern world, and allowing you to still go to walmart without bringing about a shit storm.

Part of your assessment is correct though. If you go too hard/fast/long too soon you can injure your feet. Again, this is not a problem with the shoes, just that your feet are not conditioned for it.

[Bender711]

Some random lady came up to me at the vet and started going on about VFF's and how they messed up her feet and what doctor she was going to and so on and so on..... didn't have the heart to tell her that being over weight and old isnt a good combo for preventing stress injuries.

[DeadCanadian]

I saw a dude wearing these one time. They're really weird.

Speaking of weird, I saw a Japanese middle age lady wearing Tabi...you know...ninja shoes! (Actually, the split sock evolved so they could wear them with their wood geta shoes, and Japanese fishermen today still wear rubber soled tabi boots) but man I am talking about in Canada here.

I would like to try a pair (maybe not with a 50 pound pack) but at $94 they are a little expensive to "try".

[praharin]

I would like to try a pair (maybe not with a 50 pound pack) but at $94 they are a little expensive to "try".

For about $20 you could buy some Vibram brand "Cherry Rubber" and make a pair of Huarache sandals. There are directions for doing this all over the net, and kits are even sold for more.

They would give you a similar experience with substantially less cost.

[DeadCanadian]

Thanks for the tip, here is just one video but you can see more on the sidebar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bqkPAWVTLA

I can see where the thiness of the sole can simulate the V5Fs as far as thiness underfoot goes but for me there would be too much sliding and pepples getting between my foot and a single cord between my big toe would drive me nuts as I went up and down hills. I have worn toe socks before just to see how they feel. Maybe I'll try to glue toe socks to a thin sole.

[Manliest]

Maybe buy some used ones, or knockoffs. Just to get the idea. Or (GASP) go barefoot...

[praharin]

Thanks for the tip, here is just one video but you can see more on the sidebar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bqkPAWVTLA

I can see where the thiness of the sole can simulate the V5Fs as far as thiness underfoot goes but for me there would be too much sliding and pepples getting between my foot and a single cord between my big toe would drive me nuts as I went up and down hills. I have worn toe socks before just to see how they feel. Maybe I'll try to glue toe socks to a thin sole.

Huaraches were designed by desert runners, FWIW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnizzgzyzu8

If you want to run in F5Fs you should probably get used to pebbles and stuff between your toes.

Don't buy knockoffs. Fila makes their own thin soled toe shoes, but don't buy the fake Vibram shoes.

[Manliest]

Don't buy knockoffs. Fila makes their own thin soled toe shoes, but don't buy the fake Vibram shoes.

Knockoff VFFs are better than "Skeletoes", IMHO.

[praharin]

Don't buy knockoffs. Fila makes their own thin soled toe shoes, but don't buy the fake Vibram shoes.

Knockoff VFFs are better than "Skeletoes", IMHO.

Your "humble opinion" would prefer to see something stolen then? Knockoffs are bad for everyone. They only seek to make a buck off of someone else's idea. Design emulation is something different, and brings change to the market, on both ends. The Skeletoes do this, by bringing a new design to a similar product. They are not Vibram marked, like may of the knockoffs and they are clearly a different design.

Design theft is only theft.

[Manliest]

Morals and ethics weren't a part of my equation. Function was. Of course stealing is bad, but if the man wants a taste of VFFs, Skeletoes are NOT representative of VFFs.

[praharin]

At least you can expect support from Fila. The knockoffs... if you have a problem, you're on your own.

[comms]

Anything is possible and YMMV, I have seen people run road marathons in them and run the grand canyon in them, but V5F are not made to be used under pack load. They are designed for yoga, river crossings, cross-fit exercises, running drills.

So I guess me running my 50+ pounds overweight ass 8-10 miles with a 25 pound pack on is something that shouldn't be possible without injury? The worst I have hurt myself in my V5Fs was kicking a jutting up sidewalk segment. The freeze/thaw cycle plays hell on them around here. That is not a problem with the shoes, it was my lack of awareness due to padded shoes for my whole life.

V5Fs were designed to simulate barefoot conditions while offering your feet some protection from the modern world, and allowing you to still go to walmart without bringing about a shit storm.

Part of your assessment is correct though. If you go too hard/fast/long too soon you can injure your feet. Again, this is not a problem with the shoes, just that your feet are not conditioned for it.

Not sure how you want me to respond to that. The Original Poster stated, "I'm wondering if anyone has used them while wearing packs in the neighborhood of 40-50 pounds. Since they are supposed to force a toe/ball first motion instead of heel first motion, I wonder what that does fatigue wise." Like I said YMMV (Your Mileage My Vary) but a body will feel a lot more affects running 8-10 miles with a 25lb pack and wearing V5F than more sensible footwear. I don't think I was wrong to respond these shoes are not made for use under pack weight, in fact they weren't designed for runners at all, we co-opted the use. V5F can help someone change from a heel strike to a forward strike through proper training to do so, but once that change is made in the footfall it translates to all motion, not regulated to when only wearing V5F.

[roscoe]

but a body will feel a lot more affects running 8-10 miles with a 25lb pack and wearing V5F than more sensible footwear

Actually, your body will feel it less, because your knees and spine will suffer from less impact-related shock. That will be made up by the Achilles tendon, which actually will return some of the energy. But, yes, running 10 miles with 25 pounds is a lot, no matter what, so train slowly.

Using the term "sensible" shoes is begging the question, BTW.

[comms]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the effects felt running or hiking with supportive footwear vs V5F, at least I am coming at this from those two points of view.

"sensible" shoes. Lol. I originally wrote running shoes/ light hiker/ trail runners but thought someone would say a shoe like doesn't exist. I was just trying to be expedient with my words. sensible shoes meant just wearing the right shoe for the job. I don't think a v5f is the right footwear for a 45lb pack.

[zombie_dog]

I would like to try a pair (maybe not with a 50 pound pack) but at $94 they are a little expensive to "try".

For about $20 you could buy some Vibram brand "Cherry Rubber" and make a pair of Huarache sandals. There are directions for doing this all over the net, and kits are even sold for more.

They would give you a similar experience with substantially less cost.

so if I happen to have mutant toes and cant fit in the V5F then I should go this route? I spent a nice frustraiting 15 min trying to get a pair of v5f's on before realizing my toe configuration is the limiting factor


Also...

Knockoffs are bad for everyone. They only seek to make a buck off of someone else's idea. Design emulation is something different, and brings change to the market, on both ends. The Skeletoes do this, by bringing a new design to a similar product. They are not Vibram marked, like may of the knockoffs and they are clearly a different design.

Design theft is only theft.

Most inteligent people I know are ANTI-IP (because intellectual property laws are anti intellectual)
http://www.freepressonline.net/content/ ... y-movement

Tell me how this is NOT true?

[praharin]

... Like I said YMMV (Your Mileage My Vary) but a body will feel a lot more affects running 8-10 miles with a 25lb pack and wearing V5F than more sensible footwear. I don't think I was wrong to respond these shoes are not made for use under pack weight, in fact they weren't designed for runners at all, we co-opted the use. V5F can help someone change from a heel strike to a forward strike through proper training to do so, but once that change is made in the footfall it translates to all motion, not regulated to when only wearing V5F.

So, you say mmmv (my mileage may vary), and follow that with a "BUT" I will feel more effect running under weight (so my mileage can't really vary. That's what but means ). That's a little bit backhanded, don't you think. Well, I am sorry to disappoint you, but even though I (personally) will probably feel more effect only because I CANNOT run 8-10 miles in normal footwear. I ran 6 miles last Saturday, in my RunaMocs (which give me less foot support than V5Fs) with a pack on AND pushing a stroller. I felt great afterwards.

I still heel strike when wearing anything with a heel bias, so I can tell you emphatically NO it does not change everything else, for me at least. In my experience, talking to other barefooters, many have similar experiences.

Most inteligent people I know are ANTI-IP (because intellectual property laws are anti intellectual)
http://www.freepressonline.net/content/ ... y-movement

Tell me how this is NOT true?

Simple, it's not true because it's different circumstances. I specifically said I didn't mind the Fila Skeletoes because, however similar, they are a unique product. They aren't a knockoff of the Vibrams, but they are, in essence, a copy of the V5F toe shoe idea. See, different circumstances. I don't like the knockoffs because they are stealing the Vibram name and copying their design. I feel the same way about companies that knockoff purses, knives or whatever else. Make a product you can be proud of, give it your own logo and show how proud you are!

Now it's your turn, how is a manufacturing facility using a backdoor "3rd shift" crew, using lower quality and less expensive material to make the same shoes, giving them even the same embroidery on the foot the same thing?

There is a reason we have rules against plagiarism in academia and copyright and patent laws in most developed countries. It allows the smarter, more innovative people to prosper.

Call it economic Darwinism or intellectual capitalism if you prefer.

But do you know what you CAN do with someone else's intellectual property? You can USE it. That's right, you can take it, and use it to make something that you perceive as BETTER in some way. That's what Fila did differently. They made V5Fs in a simpler way, and can sell them cheaper while maintaining some originality, at least in looks.

In the future, please don't come after me with some hipster-hippie-socialist blog about how we should just share our ideas and infer that I'm stupid because of it. In the event that you choose to attempt something similar, please try to make it relevant.

[comms]

I do not think you understand the term YMMV or you're attempting to be contentious for no reason. It's not a personal comment on actual mileage. its a shorthand disclaimer, following an opinion. I offered my opinion based on my experience, disclaimering (YMMV) that what happens to you may vary from what I am saying. So, good for you that you can run 6 miles in Vibrams with a pack and pushing a stroller. Still doesn't change the fact that their purpose is not to be used running or hiking with a 25 or 45 pound pack. If you can do it and it doesn't hurt your foot, ankle, lower legs, GREAT. Then Your Mileage. Varys.

I also did not say wearing V5F will change your foot strike in other shoes simply by wearing them. You're twisting my words. I said, "V5F can help someone change from a heel strike to a forward strike through proper training to do so." If you don't put in the time, effort and education to change you foot strike it's not going to happen. And even when you do, it takes weeks and months, not days for it to become an unconscious habit.

If someone buys V5F and expects them to have a metamorphosis into an efficient fore foot runner overnight, they are naive. Its not even necessary to buy V5F to change from running with a heel strike to a mid or fore foot strike, they can do it in whatever footwear they want, or barefoot. It's knowing how to drill and train for it.

[praharin]

I do not think you understand the term YMMV or you're attempting to be contentious for no reason.

I know what it means. You cannot tell me that my individual results may vary and in the same breath say ...but this is how it is. That is exactly what you did.

Like I said YMMV (Your Mileage My Vary) but a body will feel a lot more affects running 8-10 miles with a 25lb pack

See, you said that. Look again for yourself. I added bold to show you where the problem lies.

My body, does not. My body is A body.

I also did not say wearing V5F will change your foot strike in other shoes simply by wearing them. You're twisting my words.

Here are your words:

V5F can help someone change from a heel strike to a forward strike through proper training to do so, but once that change is made in the footfall it translates to all motion, not regulated to when only wearing V5F.

Again, emphasis mine. "All motions" would probably translate across footwear, right? I thought so, maybe you don't (YMMV)

If someone buys V5F and expects them to have a metamorphosis into an efficient fore foot runner overnight, they are naive. Its not even necessary to buy V5F to change from running with a heel strike to a mid or fore foot strike, they can do it in whatever footwear they want, or barefoot. It's knowing how to drill and train for it.

For me, V5Fs or other "minimalist" shoes is necessary for me to run (period), because of a lot of time spent humping too much weight with too much heel bias. My hips literally cannot take it. I could force them too, but after a week of 3, 2+ mile runs my right leg (first anyway) feels like the socket is disconnecting.

Please read more of my posts in this thread, because I think you will find that I have repeatedly emphasized the need to take the transition slow. It is exactly like beginning any exercise program. The muscles you are using in this case are probably the least used muscle on EVERY (shod) person's body. It only makes sense that you would have to take it even slower. People mess themselves up because they think they are using their feet all the time. Sadly, most are not.

[andygates]

Yah, most people's feet are a pretty dead lump - especially boot-wearers with lots of ankle support. And the toe-spread! Nothing is like VFFs for that open, grippy toe feeling.

[comms]

okay praharin, let me make my statement again, in a long hand form because I would hate for there to be any confusion using online shorthand.

In my professional opinion, as someone who has been in the fitness industry over 15 years and been a running and triathlon coach for 8 years, and my personal opinion as someone who has worn V5F for three years, and as someone who participates in marathons and ironman triathlons multiple times a year; I believe based on my experience with helping people create a more efficient running pattern, some including myself in V5F, that for most people if they attempt to run on a road 8-10 miles in V5F, without proper training time for the body to adapt, they will feel more wear and tear on their foot, ankle and lower legs and elsewhere on the kinetic chain,than if they wore running shoes. Adding a 25 pound pack or greater would increase the amount of compounding pressure on the lower body thus potentially increasing risk of injury to that person. Of course, everyone has there own level of fitness, balance, coordination, and ability to handle new stress placed upon their body, so what I am stating is my opinion could be very different for you based on your personal level of fitness.

To make you feel better, I'll also expand my comment from all motion to, once someone has gone through the effort to change their running form from heel strike to mid or forefoot using V5F, because while not required can assist in that process, the new running form will work in other shoes, when you're running, and will eventually become an unconscious action. If anyone thinks if you learn to run on the ball of your foot using V5F and then suddenly will walk on the balls of your feet wearing wingtips, this will not happen.

[praharin]

Yah, most people's feet are a pretty dead lump - especially boot-wearers with lots of ankle support. And the toe-spread! Nothing is like VFFs for that open, grippy toe feeling.

I can think of something

...without proper training time for the body to adapt...

That sounds familiar...

Oh yeah!

...I have repeatedly emphasized the need to take the transition slow. It is exactly like beginning any exercise program. The muscles you are using in this case are probably the least used muscle on EVERY (shod) person's body. It only makes sense that you would have to take it even slower. People mess themselves up because they think they are using their feet all the time. Sadly, most are not.

Thanks for agreeing with me on this. Your "professional opinion" makes me feel totally justified.

If anyone thinks if you learn to run on the ball of your foot using V5F and then suddenly will walk on the balls of your feet wearing wingtips, this will not happen.

That's what I said, apparently I misunderstood your previous statement if that's what you meant by it