Legal Open Carry Threatened by Cop

by **Rugger** » Tue May 17, 2011 1:04 am

First off, Mods, if this is deemed political please pull and bury this thread. I don't think it is. More of a cautionary tale, and I think a great example of staying calm under pressure.

This 24 year old kid was legally carrying openly, in Philly, when he was approached by a LEO who had his gun drawn and aimed at him. Apparently the LEO didn't know the law and threatened the kid, telling him if he moved he'd shoot him. The kid stayed very calm and tried to explain the law and offered to show the cop his permit. It went way down hill from there. They end up letting him go on his way with no charges filed....... up until the audio was posted on youtube. Now the kid is being charged with disorderly conduct or something.

Anyway, listen to the audio if you want. I think the kid did an awesome job of staying calm and not escalating the situation. Of course he couldn't escalate it much more since the LEO had already drawn down on him.

Here is the link to the article. Don't judge the source (no politics), just read it.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun?test=latestnews

Audio part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA

There's 4 parts total. Parts 2 & 3 are basically nothing but background noise. The end of part 4 is the cop giving him his gun back on the side of the road and letting him go on his merry way, after threatening to shoot him an hour earlier. LOL

by **bae** » Tue May 17, 2011 1:05 am

I guess I wouldn't try to explain the law on the street to a police officer who was confused, rather I'd obey the officer's instructions, and sort it out later.

by **Frank** » Tue May 17, 2011 3:26 am

comply, then sue the shit out of them.

yes he was right, yes he was legally carrying. but it's not getting worth shot over.

by **Biggin** » Tue May 17, 2011 7:11 am

Comply then file a suit later and get every penny you can out of them. The fact that the DA is now trying to find things to charge him with is ridiculous. He sounded pretty sane and mostly cooperative with the cops in the audio. They are the ones that flew off the handle.

Still.... he should sue the shit out of them and make himself a fortune.

by **Silent Kube** » Tue May 17, 2011 7:48 am

While I don't dispute the fact that he had the right to open carry as I don't know Philly gun laws, I do question why he just happened to be recording at the time. I've seen a few videos like this and it just seems like he might just have been looking to get into a situation like this. Again I'm not disputing his rights, just questioning his motivation.

by **Frank** » Tue May 17, 2011 7:50 am

Silent Kube wrote:While I don't dispute the fact that he had the right to open carry as I don't know Philly gun laws, I do question why he just happened to be recording at the time. I've seen a few videos like this and it just seems like he might just have been looking to get into a situation like this. Again I'm not disputing his rights, just questioning his motivation.

same reason some people videotape their houses. for protection and evidence in case of something ever happening. How would we know that he wasn't belligerent towards the police if it weren't for the recording.

by **Silent Kube** » Tue May 17, 2011 8:18 am

Sorry, just not buying it. I've never met anyone that just walks around recording themselves all the time just in case they get harassed by the cops. I understand the knee jerk reaction to side with the guy lawfully carrying and being harassed by the cops but as my dad said. If you go looking fir trouble, chances are you're gonna find it.

by **BattleVersion** » Tue May 17, 2011 8:31 am

Kube although I get where you're coming from...

I have a shortcut key on my cell that lets me record at the push of a button.
I have been know to use it when getting pulled over, or dealing with potentialy troublesome people at work.
And this is a prime example why.

*edited* after listening to audio

by **JTNieman** » Tue May 17, 2011 8:32 am

Silent Kube wrote:Sorry, just not buying it. I've never met anyone that just walks around recording themselves all the time just in case they get harassed by the cops. I understand the knee jerk reaction to side with the guy lawfully carrying and being harassed by the cops but as my dad said. If you go looking fir trouble, chances are you're gonna find it.

The only thing that he did to attract trouble was carrying a gun lawfully on his hip. While he might have anticipated the trouble, we'll never know, and it doesn't change or alter what happened in any way. He may have carried the recorder for other reasons than activism. Regardless, what's the difference between the recorder being on him, or if he just happened to be caught on a camera with audio that was set for security at the biulding they stood outside of? Nothing.

The police made a grave mistake, got caught, and now will face at least administrative 'reconditioning' if not having to award grievous damages to the guy.

This is pretty much exactly what happened to a guy in Louisiana who ended up with generous 'compensation' for damages.

by **v3rs3** » Tue May 17, 2011 8:38 am

Silent Kube wrote:While I don't dispute the fact that he had the right to open carry as I don't know Philly gun laws, I do question why he just happened to be recording at the time. I've seen a few videos like this and it just seems like he might just have been looking to get into a situation like this. Again I'm not disputing his rights, just questioning his motivation.

Almost every person who OC's does so with a way to record with them. Most LEO's are not well educated on OC laws, so you either have a recorder or it's Cop says vs Crazy gun nut says. I have voice recorder apps on my phone that start with a simple push of the button on my home screen.

by **Rugger** » Tue May 17, 2011 9:19 am

I've actually been told by many different people that it's a good idea to have a little digital recorder if you're carrying, one of which was a retired LEO.

by **JTNieman** » Tue May 17, 2011 9:25 am

Rugger wrote:I've actually been told by many different people that it's a good idea to have a little digital recorder if you're carrying, one of which was a retired LEO.

imo, it can only help.

The worst case scenario that I can imagine is that if you are breaking a minor law, an officer who is aggravated or unnerved by your recorder might give you a citation instead of maybe giving you a warning in a more casual situation. Not as a form of revenge (which is of course likely) but as a way to cover HIS butt as well, so as to make sure s/he appears to be doing his/her job. I know a couple ex-traffic cops who said that any time a pretty girl tried to flirt or show some cleavage to get out of a ticket, they made ABSOLUTELY sure to write them a ticket for whatever they pulled her over for. The reasoning was that they didn't want to appear to be acting partial to the pretty ladies and thus come under scrutiny for discrimination against the uggos or dudes.

So if you're not planning on breaking any laws, I figure having an IMPARTIAL record of events can only help. That first part's important though

by **CountryJim** » Tue May 17, 2011 9:28 am

Fiorino should have followed the officers orders. His refusal to do so could have ended very badly for for him. It appears he was looking for a confrontation with the police. I believe strongly that we have the right to carry firearms, however the right also comes with a responsiblity to follow all laws including the orders of the police. Had Fiorino went down to his knees when ordered, the officer could have safely verified Fiorino's permit.

I was in a similar situation when my firearm was accidently exposed and a city cop saw it. I followed his orders while verbally identifying myself as an off duty deputy sheriff. After I was proned out on the sidewalk, he was able to safely check my work ID card. I got an apology, which wasn't necessary because he was doing his job in the safest manner possible.

Stay Safe.

by **squinty** » Tue May 17, 2011 9:52 am

CountryJim wrote:Fiorino should have followed the officers orders. His refusal to do so could have ended very badly for for him. It appears he was looking for a confrontation with the police. I believe strongly that we have the right to carry firearms, however the right also comes with a responsiblity to follow all laws including the orders of the police. Had Fiorino went down to his knees when ordered, the officer could have safely verified Fiorino's permit.

I was in a similar situation when my firearm was accidently exposed and a city cop saw it. I followed his orders while verbally identifying myself as an off duty deputy sheriff. After I was proned out on the sidewalk, he was able to safely check my work ID card. I got an apology, which wasn't necessary because he was doing his job in the safest manner possible.

Stay Safe.

The officer was never in any danger from Fiorino, and could have safely verified his permit without first drawing down on him. Fiorino, on the other hand, was placed in grave danger by the officer, who pointed a loaded weapon at him even though Fiorino hadn't committed any crime, or given probable cause for anyone to suspect he was committing a crime. Officer safety is important but it should not trump public safety, and not all orders are lawful orders.

That said, I agree that resistance to police in such situations is counterproductive and futile, and likely to escalate an already dangerous situation, or result in obstruction or disorderly conduct charges.

I've been challenged by police for open carrying, but none of them ever felt the need to draw their weapons or "prone me out." I've had fellow concealed carriers get 'made' by police. They produce ID and their CC license as soon as the police began speaking to them, and the whole 'investigation' on the officers part amounted to little more than a 1 or two minute conversation.

by **squinty** » Tue May 17, 2011 9:59 am

Silent Kube wrote:Sorry, just not buying it. I've never met anyone that just walks around recording themselves all the time just in case they get harassed by the cops. I understand the knee jerk reaction to side with the guy lawfully carrying and being harassed by the cops but as my dad said. If you go looking fir trouble, chances are you're gonna find it.

People who find themselves in places or situations where such harassment is likely are well advised to record themselves. I guess we could argue the point of whether OC in Philly constitutes "looking for trouble," since he certainly expected to be harassed for the OC.

by **Rugger** » Tue May 17, 2011 10:12 am

CountryJim wrote:Fiorino should have followed the officers orders. His refusal to do so could have ended very badly for for him. It appears he was looking for a confrontation with the police. I believe strongly that we have the right to carry firearms, however the right also comes with a responsiblity to follow all laws including the orders of the police. Had Fiorino went down to his knees when ordered, the officer could have safely verified Fiorino's permit.

I was in a similar situation when my firearm was accidently exposed and a city cop saw it. I followed his orders while verbally identifying myself as an off duty deputy sheriff. After I was proned out on the sidewalk, he was able to safely check my work ID card. I got an apology, which wasn't necessary because he was doing his job in the safest manner possible.

Stay Safe.

Did you actually listen to it? What, he would have been shot for not getting down on his knees? I don't think so. The cop was a moron and acted very foolishly. He was the one that escalated the situation from the very beginning. There was no room for further escalation, other than actually firing his firearm.

Yes, the kid should have gotten down on the ground as soon as the cop asked. But I do have to say, I would have questioned the cop as well, at first. Once it was clear he didn't know WTF he was talking about, I would have complied and waited for someone with some sort of intelligence to show up. Which is what happened after an hour.

Edit to add: A cop first draws his weapon, aims it at an individual, and then approaches from behind while calling out to a citizen that is walking down the road minding his own business? That's all kinds of F'ed up by any standard in the U.S.

by **squinty** » Tue May 17, 2011 10:38 am

Rugger wrote:What, he would have been shot for not getting down on his knees?

Yes! Very likely!

by **WhoShotJR** » Tue May 17, 2011 10:40 am

The cop in the recording is the kind of person that gives police a bad reputation. Anyone charged with enforcing the law who is that ignorant shouldn't be allowed any kind of authority. Even worse he's a Sgt. Both he and whoever is in charge of training for the Philly PD should have been fired yesterday.

by **Grey Mann** » Tue May 17, 2011 10:55 am

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/1 ... carry.html
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/1 ... sible.html

I could have sworn we already had a thread on this.

The kid was also given shit by three cops on a bike trail, though he wasn't arrested that time.

by **CountryJim** » Tue May 17, 2011 10:56 am

The officer was in a bad spot, if he approaches an armed subject without having his firearm drawn he is behind the reaction curve, if he points the firearm at the armed subject he is possibly over reacting. I don't know how prevalent CCW permits are in Philadelphia, if its anything like my area, the officer may have never encountered a law abiding citizen openly carrying a firearm (with the exception of LE/security). This and the fact that firearm related murders of LE officers are up over 50% this year may have contributed to the officers reaction.

I'm under the opinion that many open carry folks go out of their way to cause confrontations with LE. I just can't think of any reason to open carry if you have other options. IMO open carry is not a deterrent to a determined person that wants to do you harm.

I'm obviously in the minority of posters on this subject who feel Fiorino was attempting to provoke the officer by not following his orders. That is fine with me, I would hate to belong to a forum where everyone agreed about everything.

Stay Safe.

by **JTNieman** » Tue May 17, 2011 11:02 am

CountryJim wrote:The officer was in a bad spot, if he approaches an armed subject without having his firearm drawn he is behind the reaction curve,

The cop wasn't in a bad spot... HE MADE the bad spot.

by **cemoulton** » Tue May 17, 2011 11:05 am

Some times it is important to point out major flaws in a system publicly in order to gain those flaws the attention they desperately need.

by **whisk.e.rebellion** » Tue May 17, 2011 11:07 am

Okay, so there was probably an excited 911 call from some random person...something like, "OH MY GOD THERES A MAN WITH A *GUN*!" The cops have no way of knowing whether or not the guy's legit and have to roll out to the call.

This is how it should have gone down (though, I imagine you can carry a loaded firearm in PA):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFzH5Oe- ... r_embedded

by **Grey Mann** » Tue May 17, 2011 11:12 am

Excellent professionalism in that video! Very nice.

If the cop can't handle the stress of his job with consummate professionalism and stay up on the laws and his training all by himself, he needs to get a new job.