Mosin Pistol Project - Stand by for Updates!

[Confucius]

I have to admit that I have thought about making an old-school Mosin Nagant Scout by shortening the barrel some, lightening the wood stock and chopping off the butt stock and replacing it with a bent steel stock, possibly a folder, but those are all just bubba-gun-thoughts *hangs head in shame*

NO! Bad Wastelander! BAD!

[JTNieman]

Well, looks like I got all my ducks in a row except one. Just need a rifle in hand. Trust paperwork is all filled out and ready to go to the notary, I just need to sit on it for a bit and make sure everything is perfect and that I don't think of anything different.

The gunsmith here in town says he can engrave the required info for me to ATF specs, no problem.

Just need to get me a rifle.

[Rick12337]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNFsUvh078I

[423aaron]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

[423aaron]

http://www.empirearms.com/rifles.htm

This guy has some Fin Nagants in the '20's

[NoMercy]

http://www.empirearms.com/rifles.htm

This guy has some Fin Nagants in the '20's

[Jeriah]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Whoa. I never thought of that. I think legally, a Mosin M91 manufactured between 1981 and 1898 wouldn't legally be a rifle, therefore it could be chopped into a pistol without doing the SBR paperwork. I do not KNOW this to be true, and the reality is up to the whim of the ATF, but it might fly. You ought to write 'em and ask.

[Power Fail]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Whoa. I never thought of that. I think legally, a Mosin M91 manufactured between 1981 and 1898 wouldn't legally be a rifle, therefore it could be chopped into a pistol without doing the SBR paperwork. I do not KNOW this to be true, and the reality is up to the whim of the ATF, but it might fly. You ought to write 'em and ask.

Just for a ridiculous thread shift, would it be legally considered anything? By that I mean, let's say you live in a jurisdiction where you can carry something like a Draco pistol or plr 16 with your concealed carry permit, because it's technically, legally a pistol. Would you also be able to carry a pre 1898 rifle chopped into a pistol, or would it not be covered under a concealed weapon permit, because it's not legally a firearm?

Would the wording of the permit affect the legality of carrying it? Some places use the term "handgun," others use "weapon." You could certainly make the case that it's a weapon, but if it's not legally a firearm, I'd imagine it wouldn't be covered by the permit.

If you left it loaded in your trunk in an area where doing so with firearms is illegal, would it be exempt because again, it's not legally a firearm?

[Jeriah]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Whoa. I never thought of that. I think legally, a Mosin M91 manufactured between 1981 and 1898 wouldn't legally be a rifle, therefore it could be chopped into a pistol without doing the SBR paperwork. I do not KNOW this to be true, and the reality is up to the whim of the ATF, but it might fly. You ought to write 'em and ask.

Just for a ridiculous thread shift, would it be legally considered anything? By that I mean, let's say you live in a jurisdiction where you can carry something like a Draco pistol or plr 16 with your concealed carry permit, because it's technically, legally a pistol. Would you also be able to carry a pre 1898 rifle chopped into a pistol, or would it not be covered under a concealed weapon permit, because it's not legally a firearm?

Would the wording of the permit affect the legality of carrying it? Some places use the term "handgun," others use "weapon." You could certainly make the case that it's a weapon, but if it's not legally a firearm, I'd imagine it wouldn't be covered by the permit.

If you left it loaded in your trunk in an area where doing so with firearms is illegal, would it be exempt because again, it's not legally a firearm?

In every case, that would be up to the judge and/or jury. It could also be decided by the cop deciding it wasn't worth the trouble of arresting you (if you sounded like you knew what you were talking about when you explained your case), or the DA deciding it was too much of a pain to prosecute.

Our legal system isn't strictly logical. It isn't like you can solve a puzzle like this intellectually and then expect that to be how it plays out.

At least with the ATF you can write 'em a letter and get an answer.

[JTNieman]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Considering that "chopping a firearm" up requires an ATF form called "Manufacture" of a firearm, I am worried that it would no longer be seen as having been made before 1898, and rather, will be made in 2011... meaning I would go to pound-me-in-the-ass prison if caught with it... and considering that I'd like to post pics on the net, that's most assuredly possible. So I'm going to go the full-nine and make sure I do it as legal as possible, and not try to cut corners.

[JTNieman]

http://www.empirearms.com/rifles.htm

This guy has some Fin Nagants in the '20's

Excellent link! I have bookmarked it, and if my final Gunbroker bid gets out-bid, I will surely take a closer look through his collection.

An old man was at the range today with what I believe to be a Hungarian M44. It was in EXCELLENT condition. The man looked to be about 60, and he said his father gave it to him a long time ago. Folding Bayonet mount and everything, though he did not have the bayonet with him, and said he wasn't sure how it goes on, and thinks he is missing a part. He even had a bunch of old ammo for it. Painted tip (yellow) ... did not recognize the stamps on the ass to know what it was. Told him where to find more ammo online, and that he may not want to shoot that stuff, as it may be 'rarer'. No idea if it's worth a dime or not, but the fact that I haven't seen anywhere to buy it in any respectable volumes lends me to think preservation is a smart idea. He says he's only shot about 5 of the cartridges, he just brought it out to show his son. They only shot it twice. It came in a white box with black letters that said something like "Navy Supply" or some shit. Judging by 7.62x54r.com it looks to be 1930 Type D 182gr lead core http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/A1338.jpg but there are a few with similar tip, so I don't know. Neat to see something I've never seen before, in person, and only seen in pikshurs online.

Also thought it was cool that it was apparently in his family for a -very- long time, and that he has taken such great care of it. (edit to add) (says the guy that wants to buy a collector piece and chop it up...)

[Wastelander]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Considering that "chopping a firearm" up requires an ATF form called "Manufacture" of a firearm, I am worried that it would no longer be seen as having been made before 1898, and rather, will be made in 2011... meaning I would go to FEDERAL pound-me-in-the-ass prison if caught with it... and considering that I'd like to post pics on the net, that's most assuredly possible. So I'm going to go the full-nine and make sure I do it as legal as possible, and not try to cut corners.

FTFY

Interesting discussion. I think they are still considered firearms, but I believe they fall into some kind of "historical antique" category and so some laws do not apply. Definitely contact the BATF about it, because you may very well be legally able to chop a gun of that age without all the hassle

[JTNieman]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Considering that "chopping a firearm" up requires an ATF form called "Manufacture" of a firearm, I am worried that it would no longer be seen as having been made before 1898, and rather, will be made in 2011... meaning I would go to FEDERAL pound-me-in-the-ass prison if caught with it... and considering that I'd like to post pics on the net, that's most assuredly possible. So I'm going to go the full-nine and make sure I do it as legal as possible, and not try to cut corners.

FTFY

Interesting discussion. I think they are still considered firearms, but I believe they fall into some kind of "historical antique" category and so some laws do not apply. Definitely contact the BATF about it, because you may very well be legally able to chop a gun of that age without all the hassle

It would be interesting to know, but as of now, it looks like I might be winning this auction for a 1916-dated M91. If I get outbid, I might make do some research and see what I can dig up, and failing an answer there, contact the local BATFE office and ask. If it makes the difference between a $200 tax stamp, then that is $200 more in mu budget for finding a rifle (or rather, as a more intelligent, rational person would say, $200 to save... but we're talking guns, not rationality )

[Confucius]

Sigh....
Scroll down, get your old receivers....
http://www.gunsnammo.com/

[423aaron]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Considering that "chopping a firearm" up requires an ATF form called "Manufacture" of a firearm, I am worried that it would no longer be seen as having been made before 1898, and rather, will be made in 2011... meaning I would go to FEDERAL pound-me-in-the-ass prison if caught with it... and considering that I'd like to post pics on the net, that's most assuredly possible. So I'm going to go the full-nine and make sure I do it as legal as possible, and not try to cut corners.

FTFY

Interesting discussion. I think they are still considered firearms, but I believe they fall into some kind of "historical antique" category and so some laws do not apply. Definitely contact the BATF about it, because you may very well be legally able to chop a gun of that age without all the hassle

Just as serialized receivers are "firearms" and registered auto sears are "machine guns" pre 1898 firearms are not legally "firearms". As to altering them, Boston T. Party of "The Gun Bible" fame admits to sporterizing them and selling them anonymously through the mail. That said I would still make damn sure I had my ducks in a row before doing this publicly.
Aaron

[JTNieman]

Since pre 1898 rifles are not legally "firearms" could you chop one up and not have to do the NFA paper work on it?

Considering that "chopping a firearm" up requires an ATF form called "Manufacture" of a firearm, I am worried that it would no longer be seen as having been made before 1898, and rather, will be made in 2011... meaning I would go to FEDERAL pound-me-in-the-ass prison if caught with it... and considering that I'd like to post pics on the net, that's most assuredly possible. So I'm going to go the full-nine and make sure I do it as legal as possible, and not try to cut corners.

FTFY

Interesting discussion. I think they are still considered firearms, but I believe they fall into some kind of "historical antique" category and so some laws do not apply. Definitely contact the BATF about it, because you may very well be legally able to chop a gun of that age without all the hassle

Just as serialized receivers are "firearms" and registered auto sears are "machine guns" pre 1898 firearms are not legally "firearms". As to altering them, Boston T. Party of "The Gun Bible" fame admits to sporterizing them and selling them anonymously through the mail. That said I would still make damn sure I had my ducks in a row before doing this publicly.
Aaron

Yea, some guy who goes by "Boston T. Party" is not high on my list of strangers to have faith in, when it comes to obeying the law.

[Istvan56]

I have a few things to add to your thread.

1) Look at Finnish M39's and Finnish Army M91's for a hex receiver Mosin Nagant. The Finns reworked a lot of pre-1919 hex receiver M91's, Dragoon and Cossacks for their army and the Civil Guard. My M39 is a hex receiver rework but off the top of my head I can't tell you the date of manufacture (located on the tang for original date, it is a 1942 SAKO rebuild). Please don't bastardize a Civil Guard Lotta, M28 or M28/30, they are too rare and valuable. But M39's are far more common and some were built well after the Continuation War (like up to 1976 they were assembling practice/target rifles from parts).

2) Yellow tipped bullets aren't that rare. I've some, it just means that it is heavy ball aka the Type D bullet of about 180 grains. For example Bulgaria was making heavy ball well after WW-II despite the Soviets abandoning it in favor of the 147 grain Light Ball round for their standard round. The only "rare" ammo I wouldn't shoot are the US made stuff that's from the 1920's and earlier.

[JTNieman]

Changed my idea a little bit over time, but...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =206056295

That's the one that's gonna get "the chop"

[Istvan56]

Cool, you went with my suggestion for using a M39 receiver. Did you find out from the ATF about needing a tax stamp? Does the fact that SAKO reworked the rifle in 1944 make a difference?

[JTNieman]

Cool, you went with my suggestion for using a M39 receiver. Did you find out from the ATF about needing a tax stamp? Does the fact that SAKO reworked the rifle in 1944 make a difference?

I haven't attempted to ask yet.

I'm thinking I just might send a letter to my local agency though to ask. Pictures included. Worth a shot, yea?

Before, I just figured... screw it, I'm gonna pay the tax, get shit done as "CYA" as possible, to make sure. Now I figure if I have the letter stored with it, I should be ok.

[CaptainRW]

I like the idea of getting parts and a hex receiver rather then killing an original one, tho it would make all the other originals worth a bit more..

If the date is a big deal, why not file off the date and restamp it the year you want? just mark it under the barrel, so no one thinks it's a real original.

Like many, I hate the idea of cutting up a decent original gun, But what you do with it is up to you. The hardest part but whole idea of a free society, is letting someone make (what seems like) a bad choice...

[JTNieman]

Just got her in the mail. $185 off Gunbroker cut and dry.

These Finn rifles are a beaut! Much heavier than their Russian stocked uncles. The stock the Finns use make the weight end up closer to that of a Garand. The sights are MUCH better, imo. Range report to follow. I'm going to love having one of these in my collection. I'm definitely going to buy a second one to keep as-is.

http://s1000.photobucket.com/albums/af1 ... %20Nagant/

[BigBossMan]

Let me know how your hand feels after you fire that thing.

[JTNieman]

Let me know how your hand feels after you fire that thing.

Probably going to wear a cheap Ace wrist brace the first time, and two-hand it. Then I'll see if I wanna shoot it one handed like a pistol gunner in the movies.