Iran Nukes

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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby MaxRite » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:46 pm

Apollo-11 wrote:There is a lot of speculation that this power plant was partially/completely designed and built by Russians (companies or individuals, I do not know). If so, it represents a threat on a completely separate level than the plant itself. If companies or individuals are willing to deal with Iran and sell them nuclear technology, look out.

(I know, nuke plant =/= nuke warhead, but I am making a point.) Nuke plant implies a certain level of maturity in their materials processing capability. Plus, it means that they are capable of processing a whole lot of it and are doing so. Either that or they imported the refined fuel from Russia or one of the former Soviet satellilte states.

Yikes.


Oh thats not a speculation. Its a fact. The reactor and related equipment has been built and delivered by Atomstroyexport http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomstroyexport
Hundreds of Russian specialists were employed at the construction and dozens will remain now, with the NPP online. AFAIK the reactor at Bushehr is light water, hence has humorously small potential for any kind of weapon development and proliferation.

While other secret and semi-secret Iranian installations are a cause for concern, Bushehr NPP isnt. Unless someone bombs it... nawmean?
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby phil_in_cs » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:41 am

Someone drove up on a motorcycle and attached a magnetic bomb to the cars of top scientists today in Tehran, twice today. Iran is blaming Israel.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fgw-iran ... 9906.story

http://mehrnews.com/en/newsdetail.aspx?NewsID=1200688
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby thechin » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:07 am

phil_in_cs wrote:Someone drove up on a motorcycle and attached a magnetic bomb to the cars of top scientists today in Tehran, twice today. Iran is blaming Israel.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fgw-iran ... 9906.story

http://mehrnews.com/en/newsdetail.aspx?NewsID=1200688


Iran always blame Israel. :lol:
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby Blacksmith » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:59 am

I am really surprised no one has mentioned the story of the year about the Iranian Nuclear Program. For all intents and purposes the whole program is completely FUBAR'd for years to come now. The Iranian's actually put themselves behind. They thought they were being smart and playing the US and Russians against each other but the Russians were no more eager to be in range of a potential Iranian bomb than anyone else.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/11/ ... ambitions/

I imagine Stuxnet is just the tip of the iceberg. Without even firing a shot ......somebody.... :roll: took them to their knees on bomb development. It will be incredibly odd when somebody throws the wrong switch somewhere and everything goes "huuwoomph" in a big mushroom cloud ending all their ambitions. They are better off quitting now while they are ahead.


Simply put, Stuxnet is an incredibly advanced, undetectable computer worm that took years to construct and was designed to jump from computer to computer until it found the specific, protected control system that it aimed to destroy: Iran’s nuclear enrichment program.

The target was seemingly impenetrable; for security reasons, it lay several stories underground and was not connected to the World Wide Web. And that meant Stuxnet had to act as sort of a computer cruise missile: As it made its passage through a set of unconnected computers, it had to grow and adapt to security measures and other changes until it reached one that could bring it into the nuclear facility.

When it ultimately found its target, it would have to secretly manipulate it until it was so compromised it ceased normal functions.

And finally, after the job was done, the worm would have to destroy itself without leaving a trace.

That is what we are learning happened at Iran's nuclear facilities -- both at Natanz, which houses the centrifuge arrays used for processing uranium into nuclear fuel, and, to a lesser extent, at Bushehr, Iran's nuclear power plant.

At Natanz, for almost 17 months, Stuxnet quietly worked its way into the system and targeted a specific component -- the frequency converters made by the German equipment manufacturer Siemens that regulated the speed of the spinning centrifuges used to create nuclear fuel. The worm then took control of the speed at which the centrifuges spun, making them turn so fast in a quick burst that they would be damaged but not destroyed. And at the same time, the worm masked that change in speed from being discovered at the centrifuges' control panel.

At Bushehr, meanwhile, a second secret set of codes, which Langner called “digital warheads,” targeted the Russian-built power plant's massive steam turbine.

Here's how it worked, according to experts who have examined the worm:

--The nuclear facility in Iran runs an “air gap” security system, meaning it has no connections to the Web, making it secure from outside penetration. Stuxnet was designed and sent into the area around Iran's Natanz nuclear power plant -- just how may never be known -- to infect a number of computers on the assumption that someone working in the plant would take work home on a flash drive, acquire the worm and then bring it back to the plant.

--Once the worm was inside the plant, the next step was to get the computer system there to trust it and allow it into the system. That was accomplished because the worm contained a “digital certificate” stolen from JMicron, a large company in an industrial park in Taiwan. (When the worm was later discovered it quickly replaced the original digital certificate with another certificate, also stolen from another company, Realtek, a few doors down in the same industrial park in Taiwan.)

--Once allowed entry, the worm contained four “Zero Day” elements in its first target, the Windows 7 operating system that controlled the overall operation of the plant. Zero Day elements are rare and extremely valuable vulnerabilities in a computer system that can be exploited only once. Two of the vulnerabilities were known, but the other two had never been discovered. Experts say no hacker would waste Zero Days in that manner.

--After penetrating the Windows 7 operating system, the code then targeted the “frequency converters” that ran the centrifuges. To do that it used specifications from the manufacturers of the converters. One was Vacon, a Finnish Company, and the other Fararo Paya, an Iranian company. What surprises experts at this step is that the Iranian company was so secret that not even the IAEA knew about it.

--The worm also knew that the complex control system that ran the centrifuges was built by Siemens, the German manufacturer, and -- remarkably -- how that system worked as well and how to mask its activities from it.

--Masking itself from the plant's security and other systems, the worm then ordered the centrifuges to rotate extremely fast, and then to slow down precipitously. This damaged the converter, the centrifuges and the bearings, and it corrupted the uranium in the tubes. It also left Iranian nuclear engineers wondering what was wrong, as computer checks showed no malfunctions in the operating system.

Estimates are that this went on for more than a year, leaving the Iranian program in chaos. And as it did, the worm grew and adapted throughout the system. As new worms entered the system, they would meet and adapt and become increasingly sophisticated.

During this time the worms reported back to two servers that had to be run by intelligence agencies, one in Denmark and one in Malaysia. The servers monitored the worms and were shut down once the worm had infiltrated Natanz. Efforts to find those servers since then have yielded no results.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/11/ ... z16lnK2MvY
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby grand94jeep » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:15 pm

Stuxnet</= Skynet? :lol:
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby andygates » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:33 pm

No, stux is just clever industrial sabotage. Very clever, from all reports. Schneier has plenty on his security blog too.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby kcor_77 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:51 pm

All I have to say is wow. I wonder how long the worm took to reach it's target from the date it was released? Someone put in a lot of time and effort to make that worm. I wonder who they are going to try to blaim for the worm.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby Blacksmith » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:27 pm

I wonder who they are going to try to blaim for the worm.


The same people they always blame, the US and the Jews in the occupied territories. Not that they would be wrong to look that way but figure there were a whole lot of people (like just about everyfrigginbody) in the region that did not one them to have them bomb. Israel is their favorite whipping boy so I am sure they will be trotted out and blamed first for sabotaging their "energy program". Honestly, whoever came up with that idea needs to be given a medal, if they have not been already.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby andygates » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:47 pm

Bruce's analysis is that the cleverness of the worm is such that it'd be ballpark 4-6 man years, with good, smart programmers. A team of half a dozen on a one-year project is exactly the kind of thing coders do, but they don't come cheap, and this would have been a fairly long shot IMO. So, who can waste 6 decent-grade programmer salaries on a punt? Large nations who have plenty of coders and a finger in every pie, and medium-sized nations with enough of a grudge to focus.

USA and/or Israel, then. ;)
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby Blacksmith » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:01 pm

andygates wrote:Bruce's analysis is that the cleverness of the worm is such that it'd be ballpark 4-6 man years, with good, smart programmers. A team of half a dozen on a one-year project is exactly the kind of thing coders do, but they don't come cheap, and this would have been a fairly long shot IMO. So, who can waste 6 decent-grade programmer salaries on a punt? Large nations who have plenty of coders and a finger in every pie, and medium-sized nations with enough of a grudge to focus.

USA and/or Israel, then. ;)


Not just that but also get them to keep their mouths shut. That is a hard thing to do and not cheap either. I would not rule out the Russians, Saudis, Chinese and a few others.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby phil_in_cs » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:27 pm

Blacksmith wrote:Not just that but also get them to keep their mouths shut. That is a hard thing to do and not cheap either. I would not rule out the Russians, Saudis, Chinese and a few others.


Wikileaks says Saudi's been leading the charge to have Iran bombed or otherwise stopped. While they don't have the in-house expertise to get it done, they do have the funds to pay for Stuxnet.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby andygates » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:27 pm

Now that's one memo that would put the cat among the pigeons.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby razi » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:22 pm

andygates wrote:Bruce's analysis is that the cleverness of the worm is such that it'd be ballpark 4-6 man years, with good, smart programmers. A team of half a dozen on a one-year project is exactly the kind of thing coders do, but they don't come cheap, and this would have been a fairly long shot IMO. So, who can waste 6 decent-grade programmer salaries on a punt? Large nations who have plenty of coders and a finger in every pie, and medium-sized nations with enough of a grudge to focus.

USA and/or Israel, then. ;)


six top IT guys, at $400,000 each, plus other expenses = $3-4 million. This is chump change in any global player's Defense budget, and even at $40 million, it's still a bargain (and cheaper than the amount of cruise missiles it would take to level an underground facility like that). Hell, it could have been the guys who installed the system, just so they could sell it to Iran again. :)

(though likely it was the US/Israel)

That's a damned impressive worm, btw. srsly.

edit: this is yet another reason not to run windows on your super-sekrit nukular program!!11
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby phil_in_cs » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:44 pm

razi wrote:edit: this is yet another reason not to run windows on your super-sekrit nukular program!!11


They had an air gap between the internet and the internal network, breached via social engineering. Someone (Russian contractors suspected) left behind some thumb drives that were infected. Iranian techs plugged in the thumb drives to see what was on them and infected the system.

That's a pretty well known exploit - almost anyone will plug in a thumb drive to see what is on it.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby mad scientist » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:37 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:
razi wrote:edit: this is yet another reason not to run windows on your super-sekrit nukular program!!11


They had an air gap between the internet and the internal network, breached via social engineering. Someone (Russian contractors suspected) left behind some thumb drives that were infected. Iranian techs plugged in the thumb drives to see what was on them and infected the system.

That's a pretty well known exploit - almost anyone will plug in a thumb drive to see what is on it.


In most of the chemical plants I work in (here in the States), the computers that control the plant (box with the CPU and HDDs) are physically located in a different room than the operator stations (keyboard and monitor) to keep the operators from monkeying with them. There are IT people with access to the machines, of course, but they would never plug a random thumbdrive into one just to see what was on it (everyone has their normal computer thats connected to the internet, for doing stuff like that). Its not a good idea for one, but its also just a giant hassle to go mess with those computers for any reason. And no one wants to be responsible for bringing one down! Now, this is just in podunk plants in the US without any sort of super-secret, uber-illegal stuff going on.

The idea that secret nuclear plant operators would be able and willing to plug unknown memory devices into the walled off control system out of boredom and/ or curiosity blows my mind.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby Blast » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:43 pm

Some interesting speculations about who authorized Stuxnet by a scifi author:
http://biglizards.net/blog/archives/201 ... ecula.html

Sidenote: the author does have a strong political ideology.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby phil_in_cs » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:02 pm

mad scientist wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:
razi wrote:edit: this is yet another reason not to run windows on your super-sekrit nukular program!!11


They had an air gap between the internet and the internal network, breached via social engineering. Someone (Russian contractors suspected) left behind some thumb drives that were infected. Iranian techs plugged in the thumb drives to see what was on them and infected the system.

That's a pretty well known exploit - almost anyone will plug in a thumb drive to see what is on it.


In most of the chemical plants I work in (here in the States), the computers that control the plant (box with the CPU and HDDs) are physically located in a different room than the operator stations (keyboard and monitor) to keep the operators from monkeying with them. There are IT people with access to the machines, of course, but they would never plug a random thumbdrive into one just to see what was on it (everyone has their normal computer thats connected to the internet, for doing stuff like that). Its not a good idea for one, but its also just a giant hassle to go mess with those computers for any reason. And no one wants to be responsible for bringing one down! Now, this is just in podunk plants in the US without any sort of super-secret, uber-illegal stuff going on.

The idea that secret nuclear plant operators would be able and willing to plug unknown memory devices into the walled off control system out of boredom and/ or curiosity blows my mind.


Well, practice has shown it happens.... I imagine the social engineer talking up about the photos he took with his hired girls during his vacation in Bahrain would help the process along.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby TheGunslinger » Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:59 am

Pretty tin foil hat.

And a massive long shot or series of long shots, to be honest.

It would take fuck all for that not to work. I can't imagine anyone seriously spending the cash, drop in the bucket or not.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby phil_in_cs » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:49 am

TheGunslinger wrote:Pretty tin foil hat.

And a massive long shot or series of long shots, to be honest.

It would take fuck all for that not to work. I can't imagine anyone seriously spending the cash, drop in the bucket or not.


Dude, we drop $40 million on bottled water for a congressional retreat. That's nothing. And Stuxnet is a fact.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby Blacksmith » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:12 pm

That's a pretty well known exploit - almost anyone will plug in a thumb drive to see what is on it.


That is why the army no longer uses thumb drives. In fact they won't even work on Army computers any more.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby phil_in_cs » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:54 pm

More on Stuxnet.
http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... thing_baby

Blacksmith wrote:
That's a pretty well known exploit - almost anyone will plug in a thumb drive to see what is on it.


That is why the army no longer uses thumb drives. In fact they won't even work on Army computers any more.


Not everyone can afford to have custom hardware everywhere.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby kcor_77 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:27 am

phil_in_cs wrote:More on Stuxnet.
http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... thing_baby

Blacksmith wrote:
That's a pretty well known exploit - almost anyone will plug in a thumb drive to see what is on it.


That is why the army no longer uses thumb drives. In fact they won't even work on Army computers any more.


Not everyone can afford to have custom hardware everywhere.



We in the military still uses thumb drives. It all depends on your security background and your security clearence. Now with the wiki leaks it is watched over more than it was. Not a lot of people want them anymore. Now the military are dumping then like a bad habit. All it takes is one to mess it up for everyone.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby Blacksmith » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:51 am

kcor_77 wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:More on Stuxnet.
http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... thing_baby

Blacksmith wrote:
That's a pretty well known exploit - almost anyone will plug in a thumb drive to see what is on it.


That is why the army no longer uses thumb drives. In fact they won't even work on Army computers any more.


Not everyone can afford to have custom hardware everywhere.



We in the military still uses thumb drives. It all depends on your security background and your security clearence. Now with the wiki leaks it is watched over more than it was. Not a lot of people want them anymore. Now the military are dumping then like a bad habit. All it takes is one to mess it up for everyone.


You must not be in the same branch of the military as me. The Army policy came out almost two years ago. If you are trying to use a thumb drive (you can't easily but I won't go into that) you will get your pee-pee smacked really hard.

There is no custom hardware either. Everything just got harder. I don't use thumb drives for the same reason the Army does not use thumb drives. To sum it up they are a really bad idea for a lot of reasons.
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Re: Iran Nukes

Postby kcor_77 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:32 pm

Blacksmith wrote:

You must not be in the same branch of the military as me. The Army policy came out almost two years ago. If you are trying to use a thumb drive (you can't easily but I won't go into that) you will get your pee-pee smacked really hard.

There is no custom hardware either. Everything just got harder. I don't use thumb drives for the same reason the Army does not use thumb drives. To sum it up they are a really bad idea for a lot of reasons.


I was in the army for awhile after high school. I changed branches looking for a different job. The army said I couldn't change my MOS so I left. Now I am a construction mechanic in the navy and love it.

I agree with you on the thumb drives being a really bad idea. There are only a few people that have thumb drives at my command. They also have a very high clearence.
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