HELP: School me on Generators under $1000

[crypto]

I know something about large-scale generation, and about non-liquid fuel generators with auto-cutovers, etc.

What I really don't have any knowledge about is cheap generators.

I'm looking to pick up a used gasoline generator on craigslist (I'd rather have diesel, sure, but they're all overkill for my needs I think) , and my budget is probably around $500, plus more for the interlock kit to hook it into my electrical panel. It doesn't have to run my AC, but it does have to run the gas furnace in the HVAC stack. It has to run my appliances, of which a fridge and a small chest freezer are the two biggest draws.

I'm thinking a 3-5KW system should get that done, hence my budget. Feel free to tell me that's not correct: like I said, I am out of my element.

Specifically, I don't know who makes quality stuff in the 3-5KW range, and who makes crap (I'm assuming anything with a briggs and stratton engine in it is a piece of shit, given how crappy their consumer lawn equipment is).

So, I'd like to have a conversation about what I should be keeping my eye out for on craigslist, please, and why.

[Blacksmith]

A generator is one of the few things I would discourage buying used. I have yet to see a really good deal on one used. I guess you could still get lucky. People tend not to get rid of them if they are in good shape and if they are in good shape then they ask for like new prices for them.

If you are going to try to run your fridge, furnace and other appliances you are going to draw 30-50 amps. Not all at once all the time of course but the big problem will be when the gennie is off for a while and you turn it back on. Everything (fridge, furnace, freezer etc) is going to draw power at once. So you are going to need something in the 5K-7.5K range more than likely unless you want to control your loads with a gennie box. That will allow you to select what loads you want to run and allow you to wire up 220 even if you don't have a 220 hook up on the gennie.

On quality generators.

The question here becomes how often do you think you will use it? For how long? Small commercial generators are much more durable than the home style back up generators that people use for hunting camps and when the lights go out for a few days. A small commercial generator will set you much further back too (although checking out surplus sales if you can find a good Military 10K at a nice price it it could be well worth it).

If you are planning on just keeping it for back up then consumer grade one might be a better option.

[crypto]

On the duty cycle question, around here, thats dictated by the power company. Normally we have 2 multi-day outages every 2-3 years: one in the summer from tornadoes, and one in the winter from ice storms. Aside from that, maybe a few 4 hour outages in the spring during storm season.

I think a full-scale genny box will be cost-prohibitive for this project. The last time i priced that was in my old house when I had a 5KW unit hooked up The Wrong Way, and the quote from the electrician was around $5000.

I just dont have that kind of project money coming available any time soon. The transfer box installation is probably going to be $1000 all said and done already.

[Tenderfoot]

Also, make sure to size your generator by the RMS load and not the peak load. This will ensure that you have enough available current to run everything without overloading the genset.

[Tenderfoot]

As far as a transfer switch is concerned, there are ways to avoid that. You can mount a disconnect on the outside and backfeed into the panel as long as the main is off to avoid backfeeding on the utility. As long as the conductors are sized properly for the RMS current of the generator and you can open un-necessary breakers in your panel this would be a less expensive route.

[Blacksmith]

An automatic switch will cause you need a home improvement loan by the time it is all said and done, but you don't need that.

You can pick up a gennie box at lowes, watch the video and hook it up yourself for under $200. At least that is what I did. fake edit - seems the price jumped to $285. This seems a little high for what it is but it comes with lots of instructions for the electrically disabled.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_182534-48019-30 ... facetInfo=




You run a circuit jump through your fuse box for each of those lines. The middle two switches will create a bridge for 220 which you will need for your furnace (we also hooked up the water heater ). This is also very safe for Mr. Utility guy since you cut off the main breaker while you are powering your house.

Some people back feed into their dryer line or something like that. I think that is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. The box is also way better than running a bunch of extension cords which have their own problems, and won't power your furnace.

After you spend $285+ tax on the box you should have about $650-700 left over for the generator. This is just enough for a passable (not harbor freight) generator.

[crypto]

I was just looking at the main breaker lockout kits, that look much simpler than the generator box. And it looks like the lockouts are now NEC approved.

Honestly, I think I would have to pay an electrician to do the work. While I understand electricity just fine, Im not comfortable working inside a breaker panel

[raptor]

Some people back feed into their dryer line or something like that. I think that is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. It is also way better than running a bunch of extension cords which have their own problems, and won't power your furnace.

Do not back feed through the dryer line. It is unsafe for people working on the power lines and can cause a fire. Either use extension cords or hard wire a transfer switch.

As for generators under a $1,000 there are many options. I would not recommend buying one used.

The key is to decide what you want to power. If it is a 6,000 btu window unit, a refrigerator, a few CFL bulbs and the internet modem and router a simple gas powered 5 KW unit will do nicely.

Here are some that I have experience with and work well.

Here is a diesel one. These can be found for between $1,200 to $1,400. These are no more durable than gas generators but if you are around heavy equipment the diesel fuel is easier to handy. These are relatively quiet.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... -100660521

This one is dependable. I had one in storage a year and last Saturday, put 1 gallon of gas in it and it started on the first pull. BTW this one is VERY LOUD!
http://www.lowes.com/pd_96812-348-30475 ... facetInfo=

This one is only 2kw but is relatively quiet and is not that heavy. Note if you manage your load you can run a 6,000 btu AC or a refrigertor and still have a lot left over for some CFL lights.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_28153-24212-005 ... facetInfo=

BTW these will burn a lot of fuel if you run these 24/7

These are some alternatives to a transfer switch:

http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm

http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

[RickOShea]

I was just looking at the main breaker lockout kits, that look much simpler than the generator box. And it looks like the lockouts are now NEC approved.

Check with your insurance company, they may not cover fire damage if you have an interlock kit, or if it wasn't installed by a certified electrician.

[crypto]

Raptor: The interlock switch involves feeding back through a dryer circuit. I mean yeah they call it a 'convenience outlet' on their documentation, but its still just a NEMA receptacle, just like the dryer.

Rick: Thats another good reason for wanting to pay for the work. That said, insurance companies dont get to pick and choose about what kind of stuff you have in your house if it's up to code.

[raptor]

Raptor: The interlock switch involves feeding back through a dryer circuit. I mean yeah they call it a 'convenience outlet' on their documentation, but its still just a NEMA receptacle, just like the dryer.

Rick: Thats another good reason for wanting to pay for the work. That said, insurance companies dont get to pick and choose about what kind of stuff you have in your house if it's up to code.

My preference is a hard wired transfer switch. I went with a manual one but I recommend automatic switches. I also strongly recommend against a DIY install, unless of course you are a knowledgeable electrician or Electrical engineer.

That said the interlock kit is not exactly a dryer circuit. The plug is a NEMA plug but so is any UL approved plug. It is similar though, except that typically there is a shorter wiring path to the breaker panel and the wiring can tied into the main input area of the breaker panel, as opposed to being back fed through circuits that may or may not be able to handle the load.

Still if you want to do it right the key cost is going to be in the electrician's time. Thus you may want to call around and ask the local electricians what they suggest and more importantly if you need any other work done for a safe installation.

[Regular Guy]

Alright, dumb questions alert!

I'm also looking for good gennys and solar. Would it be a good idea to charge batteries with a genny or solar? How much battery 'storage' would you need to run a fridge, fans, computer, etc or it that best left to a genny? I like redundancy, solar and a genny seem to be the right combination, am I wrong?

[Blacksmith]

Batteries add another level of complexity to the problem.

How much battery 'storage' would you need to run a fridge, fans, computer, etc or it that best left to a genny?

There are two questions:

- How much total peak amperage is required? (peak amperage/ wattage)
- How long do you want it to run? (storage)

Potentially you could run a fridge off two deep cycle batteries. Realistically you could only do that for a short period of time. With a cheap inverter you might have to run a fan to smooth out the power though to get it to start the compressor. A very small battery bank of deep cycle batteries (say six) would set you back around $800-900. That is just for the batteries. For short power outages you are much better off with just a generator.

[crypto]

So, I had a question brewing in my head today:

I'm trying to reconcile how people can consider a generator reliable while simultaneously advising someone not to ever buy a used one. How does that work? If I took it to a small engine shop to make sure it was solid, would that be a reasonable precaution to take? Around here we get a lot of new-looking gensets on craigslist that look like someone bought them right after the last outage, and then never used them again, and they sell for a pretty substantial discount.

[raptor]

So, I had a question brewing in my head today:

I'm trying to reconcile how people can consider a generator reliable while simultaneously advising someone not to ever buy a used one. How does that work? If I took it to a small engine shop to make sure it was solid, would that be a reasonable precaution to take? Around here we get a lot of new-looking gensets on craigslist that look like someone bought them right after the last outage, and then never used them again, and they sell for a pretty substantial discount.

The only reason I sell a generator is because I have put so many hours on it that is worn out, it is unreliable, or it is ancient. My opinion of used generators is biased based upon this assumption. I am sure that you can find decent used generators but they need to be checked carefully. Careful means time and labor charges. Which makes more sense spending $100 on checking out a used generator with maybe (100 to 500 hours on it most cheap generators do not have an hour meter so you are taking a person's word ) that costs $350 (typical of what I see) or spending $600 on a new generator? For $150 more you have a new generator.

BTW I did pick up some really good bargains at equipment auctions after the BP spill ended. I bought several generators for resale, but they were all new and still in the shipping box. So look around.

BTW new generators can be problematic right out of the box too.

[crypto]

Okay thats a fair point, I hadn't considered that the cheap ones dont have an hour meter on them. All my experience is in big sets that do.

[raptor]

Okay thats a fair point, I hadn't considered that the cheap ones dont have an hour meter on them. All my experience is in big sets that do.

Hour meters can be disconnected, break or even replaced. They should not be treated as gospel. Any good commercial shop is going to maintain an engine log in addition to the hour meter. Ask to see both.

[Vicarious_Lee]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

Back in Hurricane Houston, my new neighborhood (with robust power grid) was hit with two hurricanes. The first (Rita) killed power for about 8 hours. The second (Ike) was the worst hurricane to hit Houston in half a century. We had power back in 23 hours.

THEREFORE....I could not consider a generator a prep at that time.

Here in NTX, I expect a freeze or tornado to cut power for MAYBE a day per year. In that day, I'd need to run a fridge, deep freeze, and if it were to become frequent enough, I'd buy a window AC unit for one room to huddle in.

But I've read a lot about generators, and I just don't know where to start or how to think about reliability, fuel consumption/needs, and wiring one up.

I was considering something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Generac-CorePower ... B003XQWYW0

But shit. Time you get it set and wired you're looking at 3 grand for something that you use maybe 24 total hours out of a year, and you can't eat it, shoot it, or drive it. And, barring some drastic SHTF, I don't see some slow-burn problem where Texas (which is the only state with it's own power grid) would have rolling brownouts or that I would increase my generator's usage. And, if I did, I could just buy some 1800 RPM water-cooled diesel unit.

This is a 3600 RPM air-cooled unit, and IIRC Raptor, those can only run like 100 hours without regular maintenance.

So, I'm trying to figure out WTF I need as well.

[raptor]

Do you have natural gas at your house? If not, you will need a large propane tank. In which case you may want to consider something that gas or diesel powered. I suggest a fuel to match your vehicle so you can cycle the fuel out by simply dumping the fuel in your vehicle.

The load you are talking about can easily be handled by a 5kw or less unit. You could even run a lot of those items with an extension cord. The problem is HVAC. No HVAC and the load goes way down.

You mentioned a furnace is that gas or reverse cycle. If it is gas fired then the load to run the furnace is not a lot. Less than the refrigerator.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Do you have natural gas at your house? If not, you will need a large propane tank. In which case you may want to consider something that gas or diesel powered. I suggest a fuel to match your vehicle so you can cycle the fuel out by simply dumping the fuel in your vehicle.

The load you are talking about can easily be handled by a 5kw or less unit. You could even run a lot of those items with an extension cord. The problem is HVAC. No HVAC and the load goes way down.

You mentioned a furnace is that gas or reverse cycle. If it is gas fired then the load to run the furnace is not a lot. Less than the refrigerator.

Not sure. Looking for a new house now. Supposedly that Generac that I mentioned can run on gasoline, propane, or natural gas. I think that, for what and how often I'd need a generator for, I probably would do well to get something around 4KW and just pull out the extension cords to the fridge, deep freeze, and/or window unit and run them individually as needed.

That's a lot of work, but it cuts the costs by a lot, and I'd almost never have to do it.

[Blacksmith]

Do you have natural gas at your house? If not, you will need a large propane tank. In which case you may want to consider something that gas or diesel powered. I suggest a fuel to match your vehicle so you can cycle the fuel out by simply dumping the fuel in your vehicle.

The load you are talking about can easily be handled by a 5kw or less unit. You could even run a lot of those items with an extension cord. The problem is HVAC. No HVAC and the load goes way down.

You mentioned a furnace is that gas or reverse cycle. If it is gas fired then the load to run the furnace is not a lot. Less than the refrigerator.

Not sure. Looking for a new house now. Supposedly that Generac that I mentioned can run on gasoline, propane, or natural gas. I think that, for what and how often I'd need a generator for, I probably would do well to get something around 4KW and just pull out the extension cords to the fridge, deep freeze, and/or window unit and run them individually as needed.

That's a lot of work, but it cuts the costs by a lot, and I'd almost never have to do it.

If you run cords make sure you size them right for the load and the length of the run. A cord to run a frig on 110 is going to probably need to be at least 10 Gauge and have nothing else plugged in. Don't allow the cords to be covered by stuff and put them out of the way of regular foot travel. If you don't already have the cords you might end up spending just as much on them as you would on a box, given the crazy price of wire these days.

[RickOShea]

I was considering something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Generac-CorePower ... B003XQWYW0

The Generacs are pretty popular around here. Especially the larger ones that will run everything in your house as normal. Most seem to buy a 120 to 500 gallon propane tank to go along with it, and the "automatic" transfer switch.

But the automatic switch can bite you in the ass depending on how the power company's electricity feeds to your house. I've seen it several times where, someone goes out of town for whatever reason (business/vacation) and their power goes out.

There's no one home to call the outage in, and perhaps your neighbor doesn't notice the genny is running. So you come home from your trip and your fuel tank for your standby generator is bone dry and you have to pay to have it filled back up.

[Vicarious_Lee]

I was considering something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Generac-CorePower ... B003XQWYW0

The Generacs are pretty popular around here. Especially the larger ones that will run everything in your house as normal. Most seem to buy a 120 to 500 gallon propane tank to go along with it, and the "automatic" transfer switch.

But the automatic switch can bite you in the ass depending on how the power company's electricity feeds to your house. I seen it several times where, someone goes out of town for whatever reason (business/vacation) and their power goes out.

There's no one home to call the outage in, and perhaps your neighbor doesn't notice the genny is running. So you come home from your trip and your fuel tank for your standby generator is bone dry and you have to pay to have it filled back up.

As cool as a whole-house generac setup would be, it'd end up costing more than a dedicated bug-out vehicle, and I'd use it for likely less than 24 hours a year. Even if I could afford it I can't just have 8-10 grand tied up in a system that, 364 days a year, is just something to mow around. I also don't have anything electric in my home that is critical and must be powered all the time.

I think once I get moved I'ma evaluate how often and when my neighborhood has power outages and go from there. I don't forsee numerous outages in the heat of the summer, but if that's the case I'll consider selling all my guns and turning tricks in the alley to provide uninterrupted AC for my wife.

Or I'll just run away until 7-10 days after the power is back on.

[raptor]

T
I was considering something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Generac-CorePower ... B003XQWYW0

This not a tri fuel generator it says liquid propane not gasoline.

A small generator and a set up like you mention is quite sensible for a few days every now and then. Honestly a better case (financially) can be made for simply relocating to a hotel 60 or 100 miles away and staying away away until the power comes back. Simply commute to work.

That said for an investment of $1,000 you can easily buy a gas powered generator some heavy duty 20 amp cords and use it as you describe. It does give you options.

If you are going this route I suggest that you take your time find a place to put the generator as far from the house as possible to avoid CO poisoning. Also be sure to have a working CO detector in each bedroom. You should also use a cord set like this to get the full use of your generator.

http://www.nooutage.com/B103-DW.HTM

These typically have 50 feet of cord so you can bring the box into the house while keeping the generator 30 to 40 feet away from the house. Then plug the cords into the box.

You can make these your self but the parts alone typically almost as much as the assembled sets.


I have a full house setup and honestly the return on the investment was very poor up until 2005. I was glad I had it, but again for what it cost to install I can understand the hesitation.

BTW 100 hours is the typical service interval for generators which means change the oil. Some manufacturers will go longer especially if you have synthetic oil. IMO it really is a preference. I suggest shutting down every 24 hours to check the oil and belts (and hoses if water cooled).