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 Post subject: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:18 pm 
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For OPSEC please don't give away the location of your cache(s), but as I plan mine, I'm sure I'll benefit from your input on the following factors:

1. How do you build it - PVC pipe? Barrel? Dry bag?
2. How do you stash it - bury? hang? false wall? false floor?
3. How far away - one-day walk? one-tank drive?
4. How do you find it - GPS coordinates? Map? Memory?
5. Do you share it? Can friends or family find it?
6. What goes in it?
7. How much are you willing to spend?
8. How many do you have?

Again, for OPSEC, use your own discretion as to how to answer these questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:28 pm 
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I am going to go with the PVC pipe .. at least 4" with a good screw on cap buried at least 2 feet down and use dead reckoning to find it.
SnoMan wrote:
For OPSEC please don't give away the location of your cache(s), but as I plan mine, I'm sure I'll benefit from your input on the following factors:

1. How do you build it - PVC pipe? Barrel? Dry bag?
2. How do you stash it - bury? hang? false wall? false floor?
3. How far away - one-day walk? one-tank drive?
4. How do you find it - GPS coordinates? Map? Memory?
5. Do you share it? Can friends or family find it?
6. What goes in it?
7. How much are you willing to spend?
8. How many do you have?

Again, for OPSEC, use your own discretion as to how to answer these questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:59 pm 
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Good question - even the military says
"Caching Methods

Which cache method to use depends on the situation. It is therefore unsound to lay down any general rules, with one exception. Planners should always think in terms of suitability, for example, the method most suitable for each cache, considering its specific purpose; the actual situation in the particular locality; and the changes that may occur if the enemy gains control."
(TC-31-29)

Based on a somewhat limited experience of 3 years in burying things for my work, and later being able to recover the same...

Water infiltration is always a concern. Don't count on the primary container to hold out water, each object or group of objects should be sealed as well.
Do not use RTV (silicon) to seal a metal cache container, the material excretes an acid as it cures. To be honest, no matter how carefully we tried or how thick a layer of RTV used, the containers we buried - for the most - seemed to fill with water most of the time. Even at a depth of two to three feet, there must be considerable pressure - perhaps someone more expert can inform us.

Recovery. Consider carefully the climate of the burial site. Pulling a cached object out of frozen ground may be all but impossible.

Location. I friend of mine loves to go 'metal detecting' - he is always on about the things he digs up - always on public land, mincd you. This a huge 'hobby' and one that seems to be growing. A cache on private land is far less likely to be dug up by a hobbyist...

Hide in plain site. My metal detecting buddy was at an old and abandoned silver mining town in NV - while it was still 'legal' to dig about for old cans and the like. He was working the walls of an old building and his detector gave a hit on the window frame. With some care he removed the (reveal?) the wood around the frame and discovered a pair of old window sash counterweights.
It was obvious that earlier and perhaps less intrepid explorers had in fact seen the sash weights, they never bothered to remove the wood to fully expose the weights. Old lead is of no real value. His detector insisted the weights were not lead, so he scraped the weights. Inside he found silver. Cleaned up and freed of crud, the weights yielded some 4 and half pounds of silver

My point? Things in plain view and of ordinary appearance may contain more than first appearances reveal. This may be one way to to cache items of lessor value...

Best of luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:04 pm 
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my idea ? PVC tube, aluminium can and wood crate.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:54 pm 
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SnoMan wrote:
For OPSEC please don't give away the location of your cache(s), but as I plan mine, I'm sure I'll benefit from your input on the following factors:

1. How do you build it - PVC pipe? Barrel? Dry bag?
2. How do you stash it - bury? hang? false wall? false floor?
3. How far away - one-day walk? one-tank drive?
4. How do you find it - GPS coordinates? Map? Memory?
5. Do you share it? Can friends or family find it?
6. What goes in it?
7. How much are you willing to spend?
8. How many do you have?

Again, for OPSEC, use your own discretion as to how to answer these questions.

  1. I build shelves and store it on them - in occupied homes.
  2. On the built shelves, just like I would at home.
  3. Distances vary.
  4. If I forget where "Bruce" lives, I have bigger issues than finding my cashe.
  5. Consumables likely to be used while bugging out.
  6. Over time, whatever it takes to meet my goals.
  7. One for each BOL and I'm looking to add 2 more at undisclosed locations.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:55 pm 
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As mentioned already, how you cache depends on what and where you cache. For instance, a PVC pipe of 4" isn't going to hold an entire long gun, maybe an AR upper- maybe. But a 6" pipe can hold the whole weapon, disassembled, if the rear stock is of a type to allow for it. The problem may not be the pipe size, but the expense, so how you cache can determine what you cache, and where, simply because it will only hold items up to a certain size.
Whatever you DO cache, seal every item as if it's being buried alone, and unprotected- this will help ensure it IS protected.
Look into geocahing, and see what 'hide' ideas it suggests to you, as well as ways to record what you hid where.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:09 pm 
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I have seen large PVC pipes which are capable of holding an M60 machine gun. I usually seen them on sites such as Cheaper Than Dirt. That is what I would use. I would stach some MREs, water, a firearm with ammo, clothing and some medical supplies. I would bury it. Unfornately I don't have a BOL, or other place to go, I plan on buggin in. If I did have a bol, I would bury it at that location. I would like to have one or two at locations enroute to the BOL, but I believe that would be very risky, especially when leaving a firearm.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:26 pm 
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ais4122 wrote:
... but I believe that would be very risky, especially when leaving a firearm.


This is a very real concern of mine. I believe caches are a good idea, and plan on working on them. But leaving a weapon largely unsecured, likely with ammunition, relying only on hiding (obscurity is not security) makes me very uneasy.

Would anyone find it? If you're careful, the odds are good it would not. But there's always the luck factor - a prospector not obeying property lines, nosey kids, hell - a utility worker with the wrong GPS coordinates... Any of them might dig up your cache.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:37 pm 
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ais4122 wrote:
I have seen large PVC pipes which are capable of holding an M60 machine gun. I usually seen them on sites such as Cheaper Than Dirt. That is what I would use. I would stach some MREs, water, a firearm with ammo, clothing and some medical supplies. I would bury it. Unfornately I don't have a BOL, or other place to go, I plan on buggin in. If I did have a bol, I would bury it at that location. I would like to have one or two at locations enroute to the BOL, but I believe that would be very risky, especially when leaving a firearm.

Extremely risky, and not just simply from the loss of the firearm- if it's found, you have no idea who has it, or what they'll do with it. The loss of it would be costly, of course, but the ramifications beyond that could make the monetary loss pale in comparison.

PVC pipe can be had in almost any size you want, provided you can afford it- even diameters large enough to use as tunnels. Like, walk upright in them tunnels. :shock: In the more readily accessible/affordable sizes, however, you're pretty much stuck with 6" and under, and even those aren't cheap. I just bought a 10 foot length of 6" schedule 40 PVC, and it ran me 45 dollars- all I needed was about 2 feet of it... (anyone wanna buy 8 feet of pipe? :lol: ) FWIW, tho, here's some information that might come in handy, which could otherwise be misleading to a buyer not in the know- pipe sizes are based on INSIDE diameter up to, and including 12" pipe. AT 12" size, there is both 12"ID and 12"OD (which is where it starts becoming confusing), and after that size, it's based on OD (Outside Diameter). To find the inside diameter (sometimes it's a tight fit for your gear) determine the wall thickness, multiply it by 2, and subtract that number from the OD of the pipe.

If you plan on using pipe for cache containers, try to make them look like they belong where they are, and could possibly end badly if disturbed. Since PVC is often used for sewage applications, no one is likely to mess with what appears to be a sewer pipe- there's no gain to be had from it. I've seen PVC used as the shell of car barrier posts, filled with concrete, and set into the ground. As a cache, hiding in plain sight with something like that could be a good idea. On the other hand, it's also less secure if someone DOES mess with it.

A cache is as much about camouflage as it is security against the elements, especially when the container is small enough to move if discovered.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:02 pm 
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If you want cache containers there is nothing (IMO) better than a large PVC pipe, PVC pipe caps and a tube of 3m 5200 to seal the end caps.

The piping is cheap and easily available at Lowes and Home Depot. It is tough and durable. Water proofing it is simple with the 3m 5200. Cut it size,apply the 5200 to the pipe and put on the end cap. Put a bead of 5200 around the exterior of the end cap seam to ensure a water proof seal.

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BTW you will have to saw the pipe to get to the contents. You will not get the end caps off.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:38 pm 
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raptor wrote:
If you want cache containers there is nothing (IMO) better than a large PVC pipe, PVC pipe caps and a tube of 3m 5200 to seal the end caps.

The piping is cheap and easily available at Lowes and Home Depot. It is tough and durable. Water proofing it is simple with the 3m 5200. Cut it size,apply the 5200 to the pipe and put on the end cap. Put a bead of 5200 around the exterior of the end cap seam to ensure a water proof seal.

Image


BTW you will have to saw the pipe to get to the contents. You will not get the end caps off.

If that's going to be the case, and assuming you WANT it to be, simply gluing on two end caps would dot the job just as well, and cost less. If you want the end able to be re-opened, use teflon tape on the threads- and plenty of it. Teflon tape can wick fuel oils, but for water, it's tighter than a bug's butt, and will still allow you to open the tube back up. (And water should be the only liquid you need to be concerned with- if it isn't, you need a new cache location)

BTW, a common mistake I see all the time, is wrapping the tape in the wrong direction. This accomplishes nothing. Wrap the tape as if it were still, and you were threading the plug/pipe end/whatever into the tape. You want to end up with a "trailing end" as you tighten the threads up, and a bare minimum of three full wraps of teflon on the threads. I always demonstrate this by holding the threaded part in my right hand, threads pointing to my left, and wrapping the tape over the top and towards me.

Also, if you are going to glue PVC, be sure to use a primer first- the resulting pipe joint will be nearly 10 times as strong as cement alone. Glue both the fitting and the pipe, push on the fitting, and give it an 1/8th to 1/4 turn when seated, to even out the cement. Wait for 30-60 seconds, with constant pressure, then wipe off the joint to remove excess cement. Wait one hour minimum before loading the tube, or the uncured cement may "glue" your gear inside the tube.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:43 pm 
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The reason i recommend the 5200 is that it is absolutely water proof. It is used on boat through hull fittings, bedding between the hull and keel as well as anything that you want waterproof and do not plan on disassembly.

It will be absolutely water proof.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:54 pm 
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I was kinda thinking pipe dope or maybe anti-sieze ... but it might get all over you when you want to re-open it.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:15 am 
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A lot of "other" thread treatments, as well as pipe dopes, can sometimes be absorbed by plastics, rendering them useless. Guess how I learned that lesson...

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:55 am 
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KnightoftheRoc wrote:
A lot of "other" thread treatments, as well as pipe dopes, can sometimes be absorbed by plastics, rendering them useless. Guess how I learned that lesson...

LOL well we all thank you for making mistakes so we dont have to ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:29 pm 
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The only depth I've seen so far is 2'. So assume a 3' piece of 6" PVC. Who here has ever dug a 5' deep 6" wide hole by hand? what tools did you use? how long did it take?

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:43 pm 
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2now wrote:
The only depth I've seen so far is 2'. So assume a 3' piece of 6" PVC. Who here has ever dug a 5' deep 6" wide hole by hand? what tools did you use? how long did it take?

I am having a hard time understanding your post.
I doubt anyone would dig a 5 foot deep six inch wide "hole" without a ditch witch (machine).
I have dug probably 3 feet down on many occasions with a mattox
when you dig it up on your return trip, it will be much easier.
... not real sure of the question ... so Im not sure if I answered it.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:02 pm 
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I have to assume that I would only need to open a hidden survival cache one time, that being when I retrieved it during a survival situation. With that in mind I don't think I would worry about threads to need sealing but would instead use glue on caps on the PVC pipe. Much less chance of leakage.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:24 pm 
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RedneckReverend wrote:
I have to assume that I would only need to open a hidden survival cache one time, that being when I retrieved it during a survival situation. With that in mind I don't think I would worry about threads to need sealing but would instead use glue on caps on the PVC pipe. Much less chance of leakage.

yeah ... make sure you have means to cut through it... schedule 80 PVC on a 4" or 6" pipe is going to be like 1/4" or 3/8" thick.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:52 pm 
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those are what i have in mind to put stock in
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same shape but bigger
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or old artillery boxes
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obliviously i would make them airtight and waterproof with some SILICA GEL POUCHES to protect what inside from moisture

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Bury your stash tube vertically with a screw on cap towards the top.

Make the top only 6 inches or so down and then all you need to reach it is a good knife.

If you can't unscrew it the top you could always just smash the top off if you leave a little room above your equipment at the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:10 am 
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2now wrote:
The only depth I've seen so far is 2'. So assume a 3' piece of 6" PVC. Who here has ever dug a 5' deep 6" wide hole by hand? what tools did you use? how long did it take?

Digging a two man fighting hole with two people and two e-tools takes 3-4 hours, and it's about 5' deep, 30" wide, and about 6' laterally.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:41 am 
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2now wrote:
The only depth I've seen so far is 2'. So assume a 3' piece of 6" PVC. Who here has ever dug a 5' deep 6" wide hole by hand? what tools did you use? how long did it take?

If you are laying the pipe horizontally in a hole, more properly, a ditch, 2 feet deep should be fine for most locations. Schedule 40 PVC has a crushing pressure of 400 pounds, which would be somewhat dispersed by the material covering it. Depending on the type of soil, and it's content, something as small and simple as a garden trowel could be used, though I'd want something closer to an E-tool or regular shovel, myself.
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This one appears to be a schedule 30 or 35 PVC (thinner wall than 40, lower crush pressure rating), and it can be perfectly serviceable for most locations. Note the threaded plug in one end- the other is probably a simple glue cap. If you lack the tools at recovery time to unthread the plug, it can be broken out of the fitting, leaving the rest of the unit intact- a new plug, and the whole thing is back n business.

The plumbing (not what's shown above) plugs almost all have a square 'knob' on the top. For 6" pipe, you'd need a 24" wrench to grab this for turning, in either direction. For a much easier to travel with tool, a sheet of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood can be made into a wrench beforehand, with a square hole cut into it to match the plug. Exposing the plug without un-burying the rest of the tube can help hold the tube from turning while you break the plug loose, but leave it in place. Remove the tube, then the plug, and your gear can avoid getting covered in dirt from the recovery process. If you plan on re-using tubes of this design, consider storing a roll of teflon tape in it, with your gear- the original teflon isn't likely going to be re-usable.

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 Post subject: Re: Survival Caches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:16 am 
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I would assume burying it below the frost line would be more than sufficient for the purposes of keeping container integrity. So it would vary by location imo.


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