Pet meds for human use

[alika2die4]

What are fellow Zombie Squad opinion's on Pet meds? Especially FIsh Mox. Preppers think about food, ammo, water but none of that matters if you're sick and can't move. Haven't pull the trigger on any meds yet but seriously thinking about it.

[Dawgboy]

My girlfriend is a registered Veterinary tech. We have been known to use a few unguents...

A dirty little secret she told me is that 800 PETMEDS calls up the Vets offices and buys there old and expired meds to re-sell to internet customers... I would not trust my life to expired pet meds...

[Liff]

It has been covered a bunch.

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=81413&hilit=fish
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=19800&start=72
search.php?keywords=antibiotics&terms=all&author=&fid%5B%5D=43&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Some people think that pet medication is as essential as air. Some people think it is, at best, generally a waste of time.

I don't advocate the idea. I wont try to talk anyone out of the idea, because it seems that most people are looking for only 'evidence' that supports the idea. So if you choose to do this, try to not hurt your self.

[Jamie]

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV...that being said, I think that (except for unscrupulous dealers) they're likely non-expired meds that come out of the same factories as the ones we get from pharmacies and just go to different warehouses and get different labels.

If you don't want to use them, don't...but they seem to be a pretty good (and essentially legal) way to get antibiotics...FWIW, I've bought and used them to good effect.

Jamie

[alika2die4]

Lots of research to do. Thanks guys for the input

[Logans Run]

I certainly in no way pretend to be any kind of expert ... or even "in the know" on this subject..... but,
it seems to me that a lot of the problems with crazy virus strains is the fact that people (and I guess this includes doctors) take antibiotics improperly.
.... That is all I have to say about that.

[alika2die4]

I certainly in no way pretend to be any kind of expert ... or even "in the know" on this subject..... but,
it seems to me that a lot of the problems with crazy virus strains is the fact that people (and I guess this includes doctors) take antibiotics improperly.
.... That is all I have to say about that.

There is no doubt that doctors are way to eager now days to prescribe pills for anything.

[crypto]

My girlfriend is a registered Veterinary tech. We have been known to use a few unguents...

A dirty little secret she told me is that 800 PETMEDS calls up the Vets offices and buys there old and expired meds to re-sell to internet customers... I would not trust my life to expired pet meds...

Well, you can read the expiration dates right on the bottle or blister pack to see. I dont think they could get away with that for long if their customers could read.

[whisk.e.rebellion]

I was under the impression that when any kind of medication expires, its potency just decreases. Is that not the case?

[Katica]

My grandfather was fond of horse tranquilisers. But I don't reccomend it.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I was under the impression that when any kind of medication expires, its potency just decreases. Is that not the case?

Depends on the medication. Some have half-lives that merely decrease the amount of active ingredient as it degrades. One trick in Nepal was to double the dosage of novacaine, because the six-month shipping time would halve the effectiveness. Other drugs become something different and can even becoem toxic. Too many drugs, and I'm not a pharmacist, so I'll let it stand at "Don't take expired drugs...unless you're 100% gonna die otherwise or have a souce that says it's safe that you can sue later."

[Jamie]

I certainly in no way pretend to be any kind of expert ... or even "in the know" on this subject..... but,
it seems to me that a lot of the problems with crazy virus strains is the fact that people (and I guess this includes doctors) take antibiotics improperly.
.... That is all I have to say about that.

Antibiotic use/abuse doesn't have really anything to do with the rise of crazy virus strains...

J

[Katica]

But bacteria, on the other hand...

[Doctorr Fabulous]

But bacteria, on the other hand...

Constantly adapt and change based on a million different environmental factors. Would everyone who is a school trained and certified pathologist specializing in bacterial resistances to antibiotics please post about it in the other antibiotic thread, and everyone who is repeating what they learned second or third hand please not shit up decent threads by cursing all the "doggone doctors prescribing those life-saving medications!" Seriously, don't shit up this thread like that. It comes up everytime, and no ammount of pointless interwebs bitching will solve a problem of which most of us have no realistic working knowledge.

Carry on with your regularly scheduled thread.

[Jamie]

But bacteria, on the other hand...

Constantly adapt and change based on a million different environmental factors. Would everyone who is a school trained and certified pathologist specializing in bacterial resistances to antibiotics please post about it in the other antibiotic thread, and everyone who is repeating what they learned second or third hand please not shit up decent threads by cursing all the "doggone doctors prescribing those life-saving medications!" Seriously, don't shit up this thread like that. It comes up everytime, and no ammount of pointless interwebs bitching will solve a problem of which most of us have no realistic working knowledge.

Carry on with your regularly scheduled thread.

+I

Jamie

[Liff]

I was under the impression that when any kind of medication expires, its potency just decreases. Is that not the case?

Depends on the medication. Some have half-lives that merely decrease the amount of active ingredient as it degrades. One trick in Nepal was to double the dosage of novacaine, because the six-month shipping time would halve the effectiveness. Other drugs become something different and can even becoem toxic. Too many drugs, and I'm not a pharmacist, so I'll let it stand at "Don't take expired drugs...unless you're 100% gonna die otherwise or have a souce that says it's safe that you can sue later."

This is pretty much it. Some drugs lose potency, or bioavailability, or turn toxic, or even increase in potency. Some drugs also never actually "expire". There is one prescription compound that I make at work that expires 30 minutes after it has been made. Mileage varies.

"Don't take expired drugs...unless you're 100% gonna die otherwise or have a souce that says it's safe that you can sue later." And I am not that source. This side of the paw, I would not take expired medicines and I would never say otherwise. That side of the real, actual, not-imaginary paw sure, why not?

Staying directly on topic: I would have the same recommendation for medicines intended for veterinary use.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I was under the impression that when any kind of medication expires, its potency just decreases. Is that not the case?

Depends on the medication. Some have half-lives that merely decrease the amount of active ingredient as it degrades. One trick in Nepal was to double the dosage of novacaine, because the six-month shipping time would halve the effectiveness. Other drugs become something different and can even becoem toxic. Too many drugs, and I'm not a pharmacist, so I'll let it stand at "Don't take expired drugs...unless you're 100% gonna die otherwise or have a souce that says it's safe that you can sue later."

This is pretty much it. Some drugs lose potency, or bioavailability, or turn toxic, or even increase in potency. Some drugs also never actually "expire". There is one prescription compound that I make at work that expires 30 minutes after it has been made. Mileage varies.

"Don't take expired drugs...unless you're 100% gonna die otherwise or have a souce that says it's safe that you can sue later." And I am not that source. This side of the paw, I would not take expired medicines and I would never say otherwise. That side of the real, actual, not-imaginary paw sure, why not?

Staying directly on topic: I would have the same recommendation for medicines intended for veterinary use.

My reasoning for the"source you can sue" bit is that they generally have to be right about it,which is kind of clutch in a PAW/SHTF. Bill McWannabe on reddawnwannabes.net could be anyone, and his info doesn't have to be right. not that I don't trust y'all, butmedical advice is one of the ones where I'm big on "get the training." I'd settle for medical journals, pharmaceutical literature, or a friend who's a doctor/nurse/pharmtech as a firsthand source for me.

Good point though. Vet meds and expired meds should be treated just like wild plants. Be damn sure of what you're putting into your body, cuz it might kill you.

[alika2die4]

But bacteria, on the other hand...

Constantly adapt and change based on a million different environmental factors. Would everyone who is a school trained and certified pathologist specializing in bacterial resistances to antibiotics please post about it in the other antibiotic thread, and everyone who is repeating what they learned second or third hand please not shit up decent threads by cursing all the "doggone doctors prescribing those life-saving medications!" Seriously, don't shit up this thread like that. It comes up everytime, and no ammount of pointless interwebs bitching will solve a problem of which most of us have no realistic working knowledge.

I thought a fourm was to express ideas and thoughts. bad and good. You coming in here and saying the thread is cursing doctors for prescribing life saving pills is wrong and is "shitting up the thread" so what? We all have opinions. I have had my own doctor (not with her anymore)tell me "well I can give you some antibotics but it probably won't help" My previous statement about doctors is just that a statement. I totally do not nor should anyone else write off antibotics for recovery. I wanted to know about SHTF LAST RESORT use of pet meds and fellow ZSers have answered. If I do decide to take the plunge and buy a small stockpile it will be after more research that I have done on my own.

Carry on with your regularly scheduled thread.

Gee Thanks for giving us permission to continue to share our thoughts

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I see the problem. You failed to read my post in the voice of Sid the Sloth...happens every time. I'm sorry you interpreted my response to one person in this thread,and eighteen people in eighteen other threads(where the aforementioned bemoaning comes into play) as being an attempt to stifle your thoughts. My intent was to help keep the thread on target, which to my reading was using veterinary medications for humans, rather than derailing into the inevitable war between medical professionals on this board and the non-medical professionals who think the professionals are doing it wrong. Maybe read my entire post next time. Everyone else seemed to understand it well enough.

Like you said, it's a discussion forum, upon which people will disagree with you. This subject comes up enough that the search function,as well as a cursory perusal of the first aid board gave me about eight different threads about it. Try the ZS recommended method of googling "[search terms here] :zombiehunters.org" if the board search doesn't work. Either way, picking a fight because of whatever you thought I was doing is not a great seventh post. In short, chill the fuck out broslice, and carry on.

FAKE EDIT: that last line needs to be in the next Ice Age movie.

[duodecima]

I hate to say something negative related to people who are clearly trying to provide info for the community, and a lot of their other info has been OK - but this is why you have to check your sources even if they're credentialed. I read a guest post from the Doom&Bloom folks on specific uses of one (fish) antibiotic - which happened to contain information that was, at best, so incomplete that it was inaccurate. (At worst, it was just inaccurate, on a topic where ineffective treatment can be harmful.)

So, check your sources, including your friend the physician/nurse/medic.

[ptAltered]

I'd have no qualms about using vet grade antibiotics.

What protection do we have against "human grade" antibiotics being contaminated? The companies know that a contaminated or compromised batch of their antibiotics could cost them billions in lawsuits! The antibiotics sold in farm stores are frequently used on entire herds of cattle and horses, very expensive animals. The companies would have the same incentive to avoid distributing compromised products for animal use as they would for human use. These products are still subject to quality control and government regulation, they're required to be what the label says and testing frequently occurs (voluntary and regulatory compliance) to ensure integrity.

Antibiotics are antibiotics.

[Liff]

What protection do we have against "human grade" antibiotics being contaminated?

FDA inspectors are armed when they inspect and have the regulatory authority to close your business that day? With the cGMP practices of the FDA, if the manufacturing process calls for a 10ml solution to be contained in a 50 ml vial at one point in the manufacturing process, and instead you use a 20 ml vial, then the whole batch fails because of that deviation from the manufacturing instructions. Forget about passing QC at the end of the process, the process was invalidated by the deviation of the size off the glass vial.

And then there is QC for the lot of tablets/capsules. And then after that lot makes it to the market, additional samples are held in reserve for additional QC. That is why sometimes a lot of medicine will be recalled at the pharmacy level, not always is the failure in QC judged severe enough to get the medicine back from the patients.

And if the lot fails at one of these many steps in the process, what prevents that lot from going into the fish bottles? I don't know either. Really, I don't know.

Antibiotics are antibiotics.

The chemical is the same. Is the dissolution rate the same? Or the chemical stability the same? Or the bioavailability the same? Or the legal consequences the same? I do not know either.

Look at this from a different way maybe: How many drug recalls have you heard about compared to how many veterinary only drug recalls you have heard about. Why do FDA approved medicine lots fail so much more in comparison?

You might have gotten better on your own and not needed the veterinary medicines in the first place. Or the vet meds may have been the thing that kept you out of the hospital. Anecdotal results are anecdotal.

Also, in most states, the limit of veterinary liability is just and only the cost of the animal. http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuspetdamages.htm No such thing as punitive damages. Slightly different for humans.

Your call here. I can't recommend non-human medicines for humans this side of the paw, as I have previously stated.

Edit: Here is a list of current FDA approved drugs that passed every test in order to make it to the market, but were later recalled. I don't even want to think of the list of lots that didn't make it to the market.

http://www.fda.gov/drugs/drugsafety/Dru ... efault.htm

And realistically, the products are probably the same. "Probably" and "Is" are two different, non-overlapping ideas though.

[ptAltered]

http://www.truthistreason.net/guide-to- ... -post-shtf

Allow me to explain. Every “drug” manufactured, sold, or brought into the United States must pass FDA regulations (don’t get me started on the FDA), and is listed within the United States Pharmacopeia, or USP. This is a compendium recognized officially by the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act that contains descriptions, uses, strengths, and standards of purity for selected drugs and for all of their forms of dosage.



Use of the USP Verified Pharmaceutical Ingredient Mark helps ingredient manufacturers assure their customers that the quality of the ingredients they are supplying has been rigorously tested and verified by an independent authority. When the mark appears on an ingredient container or carton, it represents that USP has evaluated the ingredient and found that:
1. The participant’s quality system helps to ensure that the ingredient meets its label or certificate of analysis claims for identity, strength, purity, and quality.
2. The ingredient has been prepared under accepted good manufacturing practices (GMP) that ensure consistency in the quality of ingredients from batch to batch.
3. The ingredient meets its specifications’ acceptance criteria.

Reading from there discusses how this particular guy identified the fish antibiotics he purchased as a USP registered, safe-for-human-use antibiotic.

If it's USP verified and within it's expiry period I would have no qualms using "fish" antibiotics on a human. It's the same chemical from the same factory made under the same regulations as "human use" and frequently the only difference is the labeling. Caveat emptor and I'm not encouraging anyone to do this without research but I think the article presents a scientific way to identify the pills (or liquid) and see exactly what it is.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Using a politically motivated fringe/conspiracy site as a source is probably a bad idea.