Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Discussions of the best (or worst) equipment to have on hand for use in the event of an injury during an emergency.

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by exon111 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:18 am

Gunny wrote:
GeneralDiscontent wrote:Image

...Paragon just 0wn3d everyone in the First Aid forum! :lol:

Amazing set-up, man.
Have you even heard of Doc Simon?
I don't know, Doc Simon's going to have a difficult time topping this :lol: . At best it's a tie.

BTW, this thread needs more than a 56k warning, it's screwing up my entire browser when I try to scroll quickly.

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by GeneralDiscontent » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:44 am

Gunny wrote:Have you even heard of Doc Simon?
...isn't asking this question on ZS akin to asking an eight-year-old "Have you ever heard of Santa Claus?" :D

I dunno, I remember the throwdown thread - I think Paragon's setup could go toe-to-toe with any of 'em.
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by JIM » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:59 am

Ow, paragon, you could add an intraOsseous infusion device such as the FAST-1, EZ-IO or BIG. (I'dd recommend the BIG) and a pressure-infusor. Then you've basically got everything Doc Simon has in his Aid bag.
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by VVR41TH » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:42 am

Gunny wrote:
GeneralDiscontent wrote:Image

...Paragon just 0wn3d everyone in the First Aid forum! :lol:

Amazing set-up, man.
Have you even heard of Doc Simon?
Doc Simon doesn't have a freakin' OB kit in his bag, now does he?

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Gunny » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:38 pm

Attention noobs, read this thread.

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 08#p514608" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Paragon » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:47 pm

Gunny wrote:Attention noobs, read this thread.

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 08#p514608" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WTF?

As a forum moderator Gunny, you’re one of the last people that I ever would have expected to turn this post into an extension of the Throwdown thread or a dick swinging contest.

I have the utmost respect for Doc Simon, his training and medical skills, his contributions to this forum, and his service to our country. What exactly is your point of insulting those that may have had positive things to say about my FAK, and linking to Doc’s past posts?

Image

I’m not sure what a shelf full of ETD’s has to do with anything. If I though for an instant that Doc actually paid six bucks a piece out of his own pocket for these (as I have with all the items in my FAK) then that might be another story. I don't recall Doc ever claiming that he did, or that having access to several hundred ETD's somehow made his bag better than everyone else's.

Granted I’m biased, but I’ve read through Doc’s STOMP II posts in the past, and I don’t really feel that my bag and his have very much in common:

Image

Image

Okay, so we both have a bunch of Kerlix and ETD’s – but that’s where the similarity ends in my opinion.

Where I have a comprehensive collection of surgical instruments, he’s got a ball point pen and a tattered package of Surgilube that appears to be leftover from the first Gulf War held down with a piece of masking tape.

Image

Image

Doc’s pack has one IV admin kit whereas I have six. His is wrapped up with duct tape, mine is bagged in a ziploc. Again I’m biased, but I feel my stuff is just as easy to get to and is a whole lot easier to see what’s inside and available.

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Doc’s airway kit versus mine -- Sorry Gunny, I’m just not seeing what you are.

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I’ve always felt that a very important part of any kit, and especially a FAK, is organization. Since none of us ever know when someone else may need to use our FAK to aid us, being able to locate and identify items in a reasonable period of time is critically important. I’m pretty sure an eight year old Ethiopian with a pocket English translator could probably locate the analgesics in my medications kit.

When I first read Doc’s description of his meds several months ago, it struck me as odd that he wasn’t sure what they were without looking at the list that was out in his truck. It’s one thing to not remember what’s in your medical kit, but to be typing the description while you’re looking at a picture of them and still not know for sure what they are?

The bottom line is that Doc and I are both obviously proud of our packs or we wouldn’t have taken the time to post them here for others to look at. I know that by seeing what others have posted in the past (including yours and Doc’s) my FAK turned out much better than it would have otherwise. I’d like to think that some ZS members might actually add an item or two to their FAK that will help someone in the future, simply because they saw it in my FAK.

Call me bitter, but it really frost's my ass that you would feel compelled to imply that anyone who preferred the way I set my FAK up over Doc's would have to be retarded and in need of enlightenment. I guess it is what it is...

Jim

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Gunny » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:06 pm

Wow you really take things a bit too seriously don't you?

I was referencing the fact that Doc's a combat medic who rides around in whirleybirds and up-armoured vehicles. IMO, he wins by default.

Maybe you should step outside, go for a walk, take a deep breath and relax a little.

Anyway, that post was for the new folks who might've missed some of the discussion we had in that fun thread.

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by JIM » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:13 pm

Gunny wrote:
I was referencing the fact that Doc's a combat medic who rides around in whirleybirds and up-armoured vehicles. IMO, he wins by default.

Yeah, if you disregard the fact that he had to wear a skirt at the end of the throwdown-thread... :lol:


Everybody just relax. Both Paragon and Doc Simon have exellent aid-bags specifically designed for THEIR situation and for what THEY are likely to encounter.
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Paragon » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:20 pm

Gunny wrote:Wow you really take things a bit too seriously don't you?
WTF do you mean by that! :wink:
Gunny wrote:I was referencing the fact that Doc's a combat medic who rides around in whirleybirds and up-armoured vehicles. IMO, he wins by default.

Maybe you should step outside, go for a walk, take a deep breath and relax a little.

Anyway, that post was for the new folks who might've missed some of the discussion we had in that fun thread.
My bad then. All's cool.

Jim

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by painiac » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:52 pm

There's something I forgot to add. Something absolutely critical that you didn't picture.

Keep photocopies of the prescriptions IN YOUR KIT at all times.

If, for whatever reason, an unfriendly cop searches your bag and finds narcotics and no accompanying prescriptions, he may feel obligated to arrest you and let the DA sort it out. You would be cleared of all wrongdoing before it ever reached court, but despite this an arrest record is PERMANENTLY placed in the NCIC database. This national database, despite promised safeguards at the time of its creation, is accessible to many private employers of certain professions. Many of these employers, especially financial institutions, have ironclad policies of never hiring anybody who has been arrested, regardless of circumstances. People with any legal background or ability to reason DO understand that an arrest is not even close to a conviction, but dumb civilians typically assume that if somebody was arrested they must have been guilty.

So I'm going to say this again. If you do not have controlled substances in their original labelled containers, you must have copies of all prescriptions in the kit. Do this as soon as possible.

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Paragon » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:47 pm

painiac wrote:There's something I forgot to add. Something absolutely critical that you didn't picture.

Keep photocopies of the prescriptions IN YOUR KIT at all times.

So I'm going to say this again. If you do not have controlled substances in their original labelled containers, you must have copies of all prescriptions in the kit. Do this as soon as possible.
Very sound advise.

I do keep copies of all the scripts with the medications for exactly that reason, although you're correct that they are not pictured. I actually had several that were from Walmart (using their $4.00 Rx program) where they had mispelled my last name, and had to jump through several hoops get those corrected.

Again, very good advise for anyone that removes their Rx meds from the original containers, especially if your local pharmacy cannot easily be contacted for verification.

Jim


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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by RedKnightt » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:42 pm

I see you mentioned how you paid for the items in your bag on your own, not "borrowing" them from work or anything, so I'll ask the rude question :D : How much did all that $hit cost? That is an amazing ER in a bag, and while my first aid skill currently comprises duct-taping a gauze pad to the boo-boo until we get to the hospital, it seems you've gone out of the way to have a tool for every job. How did you convince your doctor to write prescriptions for morphine & narcan for non-immediate use?

Seriously, just wow. The only thing I see missing from the kit is the transport helicopter :mrgreen:
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Paragon » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:03 pm

RedKnightt wrote:I see you mentioned how you paid for the items in your bag on your own, not "borrowing" them from work or anything, so I'll ask the rude question :D : How much did all that $hit cost?
The truthful answer is I'm not exactly sure, as I don't really keep track of that (although I do keep all my receipts together, so I could actually total it if I had to). According to the excel sheet, the total is $4,561.54, but that figure does not account for any discounts. For example, the price I have listed in excel for the STOMP II is $334.99 (the price shown on Blackhawk's website) although I actually purchased it new off eBay for $132.50 with shipping. My best guess is that I've probably spent somewhere around $3,500 for everything that you see.
RedKnightt wrote:How did you convince your doctor to write prescriptions for morphine & narcan for non-immediate use?
I simply explained to him that some of the more remote locations that I hike into could legitimately place me two to three days from any SAR or medical assistance. If I were to seriously injure myself, my survival could literally depend upon my ability to get myself back to assistance, which might mean having to hike 40 or more miles with a comminuted fracture.

Another thing that I routinely do whenever I ask for a script to replace expired meds (especially C-II narcotics) is to bring the expired meds with me to the doctor's office, further demonstrating to him that the meds are not being used innapropriately. If a situation were to ever occur that required me to burn through a bunch of medications, you can bet my doctor would be one of the first to get the full details upon my return.

Jim

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by JIM » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:03 am

Ow, another think comes to mind. How about some heat packs for your IV's?
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Jack Frost » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:19 am

A fantastic kit, well done :!:.

[nitpick] The SAM Finger splints are great and all, but wouldn't tongue depressors and tape do just as good a job in the majority of cases? I just don't see the point in carrying 6 finger splints when 1 or 2 would do fine. [/nitpick]

But otherwise, I can see this kit sustaining a group of up to 50 people for a very long time. Since this seems to be what the kit is geared towards, when you have some spare cash i'd try and increase the quantities of the meds you have (especially the Imodium and the Antibiotics) since you'll burn through meds at an unbelieveable rate. One of the best things about this kit is that while you have the high speed trauma supplies, clotting agents and ET tubes; you haven't forgotten about the blister dressings, 'band-aids' and sunscreen, all of which are far more likely to be used.

I am also going to beat that tired, old bush again; get some training in using some of that equipment. Contrary to popular belief, training need not involve a $900, 5 day waffle-fest from some jumped up little twit with a red cross on his shirt and his head up his backside. It can be as simple as approaching a friendly doctor and asking for a few tips, or borrowing a cpr dummy and practising intubation on it, or (if you have very nice friends) practising IV sticks on them. Practise may seem silly at the time, but it'll pay back 10-fold if you ever need to use that skill.

Finally, all I can say is: money very well spent. :D
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by disgruntal » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:49 am

Just some questions. You are not an MD, PA, NP, RN, EMT-P, or even EMT-B correct? You have a great deal of hgh level equipment there (really nice kit BTW), isn't it a bit dangerous to have all that without the training to use it? Or are you preparing to be johnny-on-the-spot just in case. As someone already pointed out with stadol, giving them that thinking you are reversing the MSo4 might just seal the fate of the patient. You said this was for your personal use. Who is going to start your IV and give you the MSo4? Intubate you? Monitor your condition and know when to intercede? Without the proper training you may well end up killing yourself by accident.

While I applaud your meticulousness, why not take it a step further and get the training. The ARC will not cut it.
In EMS we could tell the new medics from one who had been around the block a few times by what they wore on thier belt. The new guys carried hemostats, listers, centerpunch, trauma shears, scope, CPR mask, knife, penlight, tournaqite, and then some. the grizzled vets carried trauma shears and maybe a scope. The point being that the more you know, the less you need, generally speaking.

Thanks for sharing your ideas and kit.

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by exon111 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:42 am

JIM wrote:Ow, another think comes to mind. How about some heat packs for your IV's?
Which reminds me of this: http://www.chinookmed.com/index.cfm/fa/ ... lanket.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A blanket that produces its own heat would be a nice thing to have in cool weather for a person in shock.

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Paragon » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:23 am

disgruntal wrote:Just some questions. You are not an MD, PA, NP, RN, EMT-P, or even EMT-B correct? You have a great deal of hgh level equipment there (really nice kit BTW), isn't it a bit dangerous to have all that without the training to use it?
From the original post
disgruntal wrote:You said this was for your personal use. Who is going to start your IV and give you the MSo4? Intubate you? Monitor your condition and know when to intercede?
Actually I indicated that the prescription meds were for my personal use. In a 9/11, Katrina, or other significant natural disaster-type scenario, the gear would be available for qualified medical personnel that did not otherwise have their own gear available (i.e., the physcians in my neighborhood). In a true EOTWAWKI/PAW/societal meltdown I would utilize use anything in the kit to the best of my abilities given my training.

Jim

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by E » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:18 pm

Gunny wrote:Image
I second that :shock:
Really good write up man. I liked the links you gave with most of the items. Now I have explanations/where to get items
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by AlmostJesus » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:02 pm

Paragon wrote:
disgruntal wrote:Just some questions. You are not an MD, PA, NP, RN, EMT-P, or even EMT-B correct? You have a great deal of hgh level equipment there (really nice kit BTW), isn't it a bit dangerous to have all that without the training to use it?
From the original post
disgruntal wrote:You said this was for your personal use. Who is going to start your IV and give you the MSo4? Intubate you? Monitor your condition and know when to intercede?
Actually I indicated that the prescription meds were for my personal use. In a 9/11, Katrina, or other significant natural disaster-type scenario, the gear would be available for qualified medical personnel that did not otherwise have their own gear available (i.e., the physcians in my neighborhood). In a true EOTWAWKI/PAW/societal meltdown I would utilize use anything in the kit to the best of my abilities given my training.

Jim
That kind of scares me in a way. Seems like a lot of that could do more harm than good in some situations. Do you know the right dosages of the Rx meds? Do you know how to insert an ET tube?
While it is an amazing kit that I think all of us wish we had, I think I worry that it may be over kill in many ways. Especially being essentially a layperson with some training. I guess its just a tough situation to think about. I would definitely suggest taking EMT-B and W-EMT classes in this situation so at least you could use some of the equipment, I know my emt book does have a section on advanced airway, so you could learn ET tubes and the such too. If I were to have a kit like that I would probably like to be at least an EMT/I-99
On to the suggested improvements:
For a kit of this magnitude which is basically a mobile ER there is no reason why you shouldn't have in one of those rider bags an oxygen tank with a nasal cannula plus the rest of your O2 admin supplies. That is one of the more important drugs administered, they stress to us in emt class that oxygen is a very helpful aid and you can almost never go wrong administering O2 at 15lpm via nonrebreather mask.
Also, I would suggest you change out a few of your ET tubes with Combi tubes, because in a situation where the airway is compromised you may not have the doctor around and a lay person could insert a Combitube if needed. That would be a good idea to carry a few with you.
Last, I must agree that you should really, in a bag of that magnitude, have a portable suction unit, like a hand held manual one. If they are vomiting and you can't get it out of the airway you are stopped right dead in your tracks right away.
Other than that, that bag is my envy, and if you ever feel its too much, give this man a call and Ill take it off your hands :)
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by Paragon » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:17 am

Seeing this thread pop back up, I noticed there were a few questions and suggestions hanging out there that I hadn’t addressed…
JIM wrote:Ow, another think comes to mind. How about some heat packs for your IV's?
The five (5) Beyond BodiHeat 12 Hour Disposable Heating Pads reach an average temperature of 127°F (53°C) so those should serve that purpose, don’t you think?
E wrote:Really good write up man. I liked the links you gave with most of the items. Now I have explanations/where to get items
Thanks, although be aware that some of the items were actually acquired locally, so the links provided may not necessarily reflect the best price available for a particular item.
AlmostJesus wrote:Do you know how to insert an ET tube?
Yeah, although all of my experience to date have been limited to mannequins. A report cited by the TCCC indicates that first-time Endotracheal intubation by combat medics trained with mannequins showed only a 42% success rate, whereas experienced EMT-P’s were successful 75% of the time (81 out of 108 attempts in civilian prehospital settings). Obviously, neither of these percentages are very encouraging…
AlmostJesus wrote:I would definitely suggest taking EMT-B and W-EMT classes…
I don't disagree, and actually discussed my intentions here.
AlmostJesus wrote:For a kit of this magnitude which is basically a mobile ER there is no reason why you shouldn't have in one of those rider bags an oxygen tank with a nasal cannula plus the rest of your O2 admin supplies. That is one of the more important drugs administered, they stress to us in emt class that oxygen is a very helpful aid and you can almost never go wrong administering O2 at 15lpm via nonrebreather mask.
Nasal cannula and nonrebreather masks are already in there, although I have not done anything more regarding an O2 tank. This is definitely something to consider.
AlmostJesus wrote:Also, I would suggest you change out a few of your ET tubes with Combi tubes, because in a situation where the airway is compromised you may not have the doctor around and a lay person could insert a Combitube if needed. That would be a good idea to carry a few with you.
There are currently two (2) KING LT-D Supralaryngeal Airways in there now (same Esophageal/Tracheal double lumen airway concept as the Combitube) in addition to the various sized ET tubes.
AlmostJesus wrote:Last, I must agree that you should really, in a bag of that magnitude, have a portable suction unit, like a hand held manual one.
Yeah I agree -- Jim’s comments already convinced me to add a RES-Q-VAC to the kit.
JIM wrote:Ow, paragon, you could add an intraOsseous infusion device such as the FAST-1, EZ-IO or BIG. (I'dd recommend the BIG) and a pressure-infusor. Then you've basically got everything Doc Simon has in his Aid bag.
While an Intraosseous infusion device would be a great addition, it’s currently something I plan to hold off on for now due to the high cost and my lack of training in IO infusion. I’m pretty familiar with the EZ-IO, although I had not looked at the BIG device before – thanks for the suggestion. I have looked into adding an AED, along with an SpO2 meter, although I haven’t purchased either yet. Other updates since I last posted have included adding more Narcan (10mg now), deleted the Stadol, and picked up a 15mL Primatene mist inhaler (Epinephrine 0.22 mg/dose).

Future changes call for switching out the Alcaine eye numbing drops for Tetracaine (does not require refrigeration), replace the Morphine MDV with Fentanyl amps, replace the lactated ringers with additional 6% Hetastarch for increased intravascular volume expansion (again, per TCCC recommendations), replace the 250mL D5W with injectable 50% dextrose amps, and add some additional antibiotics (Azithromycin, Amoxicillin, and possibly Metronidazole). Sux (Suxamethonium) and Versed (Midazolam) would round out the meds, although like the EZ-IO, will have to wait until I pick up some additional training

Jim

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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by JIM » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:34 am

Good man Jim, IO-infusion is basically the same as IV-infusion. The BIG is preferred because of lower cost than the EZ-IO, less bulk and easy use. Just look at this:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=mMnYnnbAtVw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqYr0uVuS8g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.chinookmed.com/index.cfm/fa/ ... %20Gun.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Not trying to push you info purchasing one, but I just might get one as well for my aid-bag..



BTW: An EZ-IO is prescription only (not that would be a big problem for you anyway) whiles an BIG is not.
Last edited by JIM on Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paragon's STOMP II Medical Pack (56k Warning!)

Post by JIM » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:37 am

Ow, and if you really don't have the room for a Res-Q-Vac, you could also look into this: http://www.chinookmed.com/index.cfm/fa/ ... 20Easy.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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