Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

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Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby OLM-Medic » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:17 pm

I wrote this for a local shooting forum, but I figured it would be a good thing to post here.

I really have to say this because it is bothering me. A lot of well meaning preppers ask me about sutures, or have sutures in their kit.

DO NOT suture anything unless you REALLY know what you're doing. It isn't as simple as just sewing the ends together. You need to be trained in properly debriding wounds (including cutting out dead muscle tissue, etc). Not to mention, you also have to know the different layers of tissue to be sutured. You risk killing the person by sealing in all infectious material and debris.

So you are probably thinking, "this wound will never heal without stitches" right? That isn't true. A lot of suturing is for cosmetic reasons (to reduce scarring) and to obviously keep the flesh together for functionality and quicker healing. Even very deep wounds can heal without sutures, but they will taking much much longer and probably have very ugly scarring. On the other hand, you will not be "sealing in" unwanted debris and you will be allowing the wound to drain properly.

So please, do not suture or attempt suturing if the SHTF because "you have to." You don't, and the risk it too great.



Continue reading if you care to learn what to do without sutures



So now that you know that sutures aren't completely necessary, you are probably wondering what you're supposed to do. It took me a while to realize this, but after talking to a physician who is into this SHTF stuff I finally have it down.

For one thing the wound must be irrigated (with copious amounts of sterile or clean water if sterile isn't available). At the end of the irrigation process, something to get the pressure of the irrigation up would be beneficial as well. By this I mean if you have access to IV equipment, then use a 20gauge catheter, that way you can "pressure wash" the wound. After the irrigation, one thing we are missing out on is wound debriding (cutting away the dead skin around the holes, and the dead muscle inside). I don't know how to do this properly, and I assume you don't either. I will just leave it at that.

If you wound really isn't that bad, but its one of those that someone would say "oh you need stitches to close that up" then you probably can get away with irrigating it and keeping it clean every day. It should heal on its own in time.

As for the deeper wounds, its a bit different. Now after you have your wound irrigated with a shitload of fluid (which is proper medical terminology for "several liters" in case you didn't know), you will pack it with sterile (or aseptic/clean if its all you have) kerlix (stretch gauze rolls) or gauze. This will allow it to drain by keeping it open. You must change these atleast 2 times a day bare minimum and irrigate before putting in new packing.

Now you ask "well with all of that junk in there how will the wound ever close?" Don't worry, this boggled my mind at first too. Eventually you should be able to pack less and less in the wound, over time of course. It will heal from the bottom up, so to speak. One thing you have to watch out for is premature closing of the top layers of tissue. The healing from the bottom up MUST happen this way, and if the top layers were to close prematurely, you will be setting up for an anaerobic infection that will probably result in death in SHTF conditons. So, now you can see why just suturing the top flaps of skin together in a deep wound could be lethal. It's the same concept. What about the dead muscle tissue that needs to be cut out? I honestly don't have an answer for you on that yet, because I simply don't know how to do it.

To qoute the physician who has helped me on these topics:
Things to watch out for would be early closure of the skin before the underlying tissue was free of infection - that would cause an anerobic infection which would probably be fatal, absent an amputation (think Gangrene).


I will also mention that there are some wounds in which the layer of skin of completely gone. This is qouted from a zombiehunters.org discussion
"...just sharp and jagged enough to shave all the skin and flesh off of your left shin. Right down to the bone. The meat that was formerly known as your shin (now known by the symbol ) is now dangling from the rock, completely detached from your leg, looking like a flesh colored and slightly bloody chamois cloth.
Talk about SHAM-WOW!

The idea is that it will heal inwards like any other wound. You must irrigate regularly, but not forcefully enough to disrupt the new growing skin cells. Keep it covered. Healing will take a long time for this one. What you don't want to do is try to pull the skin tight together and suture it, or try to reattach the dead skin.

Now that we're taking care of this wound and the SHTF, we are on our own. Many people are really into antibiotics in this community, but I must caution you on one thing: learn about them. Each antibiotic is make for a specific duty, and you can't just give any old antibiotic and expect results. What was recommended to me for a severe wound like this (it was actually a GSW to the leg...which was mutilated) was hopefully something that is a broad spectrum antibiotic, like moxifloxacin (Avelox). Failing that, he recommends Azithromycin (ZPack) and Septra DS (Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole Double strength) also known as Bactrim. He emphasizes that antibiotics really depend on many things, such as the suspected type of organism and what is usual in your area. Due the complications of understanding antibiotics, I will not go on about the treatment of them. You must learn about these on your own. One thing I will say is keep your expired pills. They are most likely good long after the expiration date.

Some people mention honey or sugar for fighting infections, and it really is a legitimate treatment for local infections. I believe the proper treatment with sugar is to pack the infected wound with granulated sugar mixed with Betadine to form a thick paste. Sugardyne was a commercial product of this that no longer exists (unless they started making it again). The concoction. must be washed out numerous times a day, irrigated, and reapplied again. It will also be drawing moisture from the patient, so hydration is important. There are other ways to do this, do the research yourself.

As far as healing goes, it depends on the wound and if it gets infected or not. For really nasty ones it could be up to 2-3 months.
A lot would depend on avoiding infection (strict hygiene, frequent dressing changes) and the patients nutritional status (especially zinc, copper, protein, and vitamin C).
Now imagine changing dressings multiples times a day for that long of a time period. You better reevaluate your gauze and kerlix supply.

Other complications need to be thought about. What if the injury was a GSW which shattered a bone in the extremity? There may be nothing you can do to save this person. Depending on the injury, the bone may lose blood supply and cause necrosis of the leg. Ready to pull out the hacksaw and amputate? You are likely to kill them. It is much more complicated then just hacking off a limb. What to do? I don't know...you better hope there is some way to get to a hospital.

So I hope you thought this was worth reading and have learned a thing or two. Just remember that some things you just can't fix and we will have to hope that a medical infrastructures still exist post-SHTF for certain things.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby dallas » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:53 am

Good write up. I pack wounds with xeroform guaze. It works better than dry guaze.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby Corpsman86 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:17 am

Excellent "how to" on suturing. A valuable piece of knowledge in any combat/shtf scenario.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby oldsoldier » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:34 am

I really like when people post this stuff. I often see dental kits, suture kits, etc, for sale-and bought-by people with absolutely NO training whatsoever. Me, I have no training in sutures-at ALL. I have butterfly bandages, and leave it at that. My medical experience consists of Red Cross First Aid training I do yearly. I had combat lifesaver training in the Army-the last one I took was 2004, before I got out. So, my medical knowledge is fairly limited. I USED TO know how to give IVs-however, that was 8 years ago, and wouldnt even try it now. I can still do a bandage, immobilize, treat for shock, etc-basic stuff, designed to stop or slow the trauma-thats it. I leave it up to more qualified individuals to do anything more-so long as they stay in their lane.

Thanks for posting this. I know a few folks here in the medical field enjoy seeing us regular folk post stuff like this-it means we are paying attention, and dont think watching a youtube video makes up for years of training :)
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby azrael99 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:01 pm

want to "suture" a cut but without the risk of using a needle ? carry crazy glue, that stuff is strong enough to kill everything inside the cut. it both a advantage and a disadvantage, it gonna kill all the bad stuff, but also some good too. which gonna make the healing take longer time.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby OLM-Medic » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:14 pm

Thanks everyone, I'm glad you liked the read. The number one thing I hate hearing is people saying they will suture if they really have to. The point I was trying to make is that they really aren't needed.

azrael99 wrote:want to "suture" a cut but without the risk of using a needle ? carry crazy glue, that stuff is strong enough to kill everything inside the cut. it both a advantage and a disadvantage, it gonna kill all the bad stuff, but also some good too. which gonna make the healing take longer time.


That's still a bad idea. The whole point about not suturing is the risk of prematurely closing up the wound and sealing in dead tissue and infection. That's what you're doing with the glue. Will it cause a problem with a small cut? Probably not, but I don't see the point in taking that risk post-SHTF. It will heal just fine without it.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby Dawgboy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:54 pm

I actually sutured my own left hand in Baja. I don't recommend it... 5 stitches in the back of my hand and over the last knuckle of the thumb. Tried duct tape and electrical tape first, but Dental floss was the winner. The things you do when you are young...
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby TDW586 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:11 am

Good post. I've removed sutures from myself, but I have no training or experience at putting them in. Hence, I have no sutures. I have considered keeping a suture kit around, however, since I do have family and friends who would be likely to be around me in a disaster situation and who do have the proper training to suture a wound.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby OLM-Medic » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:28 pm

Bumped because I have been hearing people asking about sutured lately.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby TacAir » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:34 pm

All fun and games until the cops (or lawyers) show up. Where I live (YMMV) suturing is specifically listed as NOT being covered by the so-called Good Samaritan law. I did this for years professionally, but wouldn't now. My papers are not current.

It pays to check, because even after Katrina, there was an after, with lawyers and courts and everything.

You 'help' someone and they live, with no side effects - everyone is happy as a clam. IF the 'help' turns out badly however...

Your intent doesn't matter, only the outcome. So, check your local laws, just so you know, in advance.

Now that I've beaten that to death, nice post OP.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby Neddog » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:48 pm

I have had to heal a deep wound (3rd degree - to the bone) exactly like you describe. This was road rash (the only place that wore through my leathers), so there wasn't any skin to close up. After cleaning out the hole they put in some cream to help it build faster and dressed it, then I kept coming back every week for new dressings as the hole filled in from the bottom up. It's really amazing to see how fast the body can rebuild and regenerate itself!

I've never believed in using sutures without training, so I only keep butterfly closures in my first aid kit and always avoid using them even.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby Blitzen2k5 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:55 pm

I know some about suturing. Mainly superficial wounds And I can say I wouldnt do it at all. My reason is different though. I would not do it because people think if the wound is sutured they can go jogging or climbing or playing hockey with the Penguins.... Not a good idea. Ever tear your stitches? It aint fun. It can make the wound even worse. And the pain is a a thousand times worse then the original wound. So that is why I wouldnt suture any wound. If you leave the wound open the patient is less likely to think he can run a marathon.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby UndeadInfidel » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:31 am

Good read. Hopefully this will help me avoid inadvertently killing someone, some day.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby Resolute » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:15 am

I've sutured up my sheep when she split her head on a T-post, but never tried on a human. For small wounds that are new, relatively superficial, preferably not jagged, and with viable tissue, and no major arteries or tendons/ligaments cut (vascular or ortho surgeon territory), I'd be fine with suturing myself or a loved one who won't sue, if it's the only option. Then again, I have ALL the proper equipment to do so, including surgical prep scrub and such.

But to the OP, I completely agree with you. Most wounds will heal on their own, but they will leave a larger scar and will possibly require dressing changes. Also with sutures on deeper wounds, there is a large possibility for infection and abscess if it's not properly cleaned. Not pretty if anyone's seen that. Off topic - search youtube for abscess videos :)

Disclaimer - My life is in the medical field, various professions. IANAL, do not try this at home, don't break any laws, etc etc.
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Re: Plan on using sutures? Bad idea!

Postby akraven » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:56 pm

Excellent post OP. Its nice to see an injection of reality/true knowledge in the forum.
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