Why is it...

[JohnE]

that virtually every thread here that starts off with someone looking for a means to communicate using radios turns into the same thing, ie, people who refuse to entertain the relatively simple idea of using Amateur radio legally ?

Yeah, I know I'm exaggerating but not by much.

It's a constant thing, "I want to communicate with someone, not sure who all the time but I know I want to, don't want to bother learning how to do it properly and legally with equipment that has been proven to work I wanna use FRSGMRSURSCB and make it work...oh and I want to be able to put the radio in my pocket, in my truck, on my roof and have an extra to give to someone on my "team" too, don't want to bother with stuff like frequencies and my wifegirlfriendsignificantother thinks Hams are silly so I don't want to rock that boat either...oh yeah, I don't want to spend any money either...can someone tell exactly how to do this...?"

I don't get it.

[TacAir]

LOL

I ran the local LMR shop at a big Desert Air Force base. Users would come in all the time mad because his/her 2 watt radio couldn't talk to the flight line while in the basement of a casino 17 miles away.

Told them the "Star Trek Option" wasn't offered on Gov't model Motorola's...

Star Trek Option = the ability to converse with an orbiting starship, through the bulk a dense planet, using a device smaller than a TV remote control.


I write it off to 'heavy boots" syndrome.

[bonanacrom]

C-B radio ?

[jamoni]

I write it off to 'heavy boots" syndrome.

Oh god. OH GOD. Is that for real?
WE ARE DOOMED.

[TacAir]

I write it off to 'heavy boots" syndrome.

Oh god. OH GOD. Is that for real?
WE ARE DOOMED.

I have run the 'test' on over 50 adults - some with 'college degrees' - well over half not only failed, but actually said "heavy boots"

Schools do not teach science today. Hell, the local high school offers an AP class called (wait for it) Physics Without Math! GGGggrrrraaaaahhhhhhhh!

Doomed doesn't cover it.

(EDIT)

I used to help judge high school "science fairs" it was truly frighting. Like the kid that crushed breakfast cereal and used a magnet for recovery of the 'iron added' to the food...

Of course, I was looking for papers titled
"Use of anaerobic bacteria for waste water treatment generated by in-situ retorting: A case study of bacteriological efficacy."
or
"Transit Thermodynamic Effects of Transonic Laminar Boundary Layer Adhesion as a Result of G Force Vectors: A study of millisecond hot spots and their impacts on combustion chamber cooling."

Before you think of that as imposable, remember this?
"The 17-year-old high school student from Cupertino, California just won the grand prize, worth $100,000 at the invention contest called Siemens Competition in Math, Science and Technology. Her project relied, in fact, on the discovery of a nanoparticulate that kills cancer cells, writes Wall Street Journal.

Angela Zhang says that her particle can significantly change in better the treatment for the cancer because it directly distributes a drug to the tumor cell without affecting healthy cells around it. The particle can release a substance when activated by a laser."

Ya. 17 years old. Cancer treatment.

SO - it can happen. Just not in Anchorage AK.

(Edit)
My son tells me the local college (U of A) offers "Physics for Poets - (no math needed).

[Doctorr Fabulous]

that virtually every thread here that starts off with someone looking for a means to communicate using radios turns into the same thing, ie, people who refuse to entertain the relatively simple idea of using Amateur radio legally ?

Yeah, I know I'm exaggerating but not by much.

It's a constant thing, "I want to communicate with someone, not sure who all the time but I know I want to, don't want to bother learning how to do it properly and legally with equipment that has been proven to work I wanna use FRSGMRSURSCB and make it work...oh and I want to be able to put the radio in my pocket, in my truck, on my roof and have an extra to give to someone on my "team" too, don't want to bother with stuff like frequencies and my wifegirlfriendsignificantother thinks Hams are silly so I don't want to rock that boat either...oh yeah, I don't want to spend any money either...can someone tell exactly how to do this...?"

I don't get it.

PArt of this is hyperbole, part of this is true. Yes, some folks want to do everything on a very short budget, like the folks that want .50BMG performance from a $400, 6.5lb rifle. Sometimes, it's just an person new to radios and radio theory who's experience lies solely in watching Tom Cruise or Bruce Willis talk to people 60 miles away through a headset radio through 62 floors of concrete with crystal clarity.

I mean, if that can be done, a pocket radio that goes 10 miles hsould be easy, right? Then there's folks who have no idea of the federal regulations, levels of ham or different types. I am one. My experience is solely with military gear and has been learned on the fly with only very basic official training. The difference between what I know is doable, and what it legal for a civilian (without licenses and thousand dollar set-ups) was at first rather shocking to me.

My I have asked questions and began studying more of the open source stuff, but it seems to me as though though the farthest I will foray into the amateur comm world for years to come will be an $80 CB radio.

Not to mention that when "What can I use to communicate with my ______ who is <10 miles away? Do I have to use ham? What licenses do I need?" Is always met by a string of acronyms, and the final answer usually sounds like (to non-radio geeks)

"You need to spend at least $500 on this base station with a $200 antenna to run MSRGURSGAMB-12, and your S/O will have to have this $300 vehicle kit or will have to install this $200 antenna and $300 radio and by the way you both need to get Superior Radio Smith Second-Grade licenses to talk on this, which means you need over sheet ATO-13.1 on your TPS reports."

Again, much of that is hyperbole and mis-understanding, but think of it like this: If you wanted an HD rifle, and had never shot a gun before, do you want to be told you need 20 mags loaded with Hornady 77-gr TAP and a $2000 DD Lightweight Carbine with $200 of Magpul and Troy parts added and a $500 optic, and at least $300 worth of spare ammo? No. You want to know how to get into the game, what is out there, and what it's capabilities are. I use firearms because I know them better, and there are similar misunderstandings about the capabilities of both, both from uninformed "experts" and Hollywood.

TL;DR Don't shit on newbs who don't understand this shit, and don't recommend a $3000 dollar carbine kit to a newb when a $400 AK or Highpoint carbine will do.

Lastly: if a newb asks a question, and someone else recommends a kit you don't like or don't think will do it, keep in mind the OP's question, rather than arguing about which band or level of licensing is best, or getting into a war because someone else thinks that not everyone needs to be a General license ham with a radio set-up that can reach Australia by atmospheric bounce. Comm is, like firearms, a hobby for many, and skills must be practiced, but not everyone gives a damn to get on every night and chew the fat with other hams. Some of us just want a rig that will suit a very narrow range of needs when we need it.

My 2 cents

[JohnE]

Well of course it was partly hyperbole, that was the point, the hyperbole accentuates the reality.

But the reality is that there have been numerous threads in which simple, fact based solutions and opinions have been offered to be met with a barrage of replies like, " I don't want to know about radios I just want to be able to do something...I don't want to spend any money...my wife won't let me spend any money...why can't I just do this with that and what do you mean it won't work...and so on and so forth until we get to the most common, "I don't want to bother with a license I just want to talk to my whatever so quit telling me the truth and tell me what I want to hear and let me get on with it..." Hearing that kind of "don't bother me with the facts" argument is frustrating, especially when it comes from people who should know better.

I wanted to be able to communicate with friends and family, developed in interest in amateur radio and quickly realized that the truth is already out there. I spent zero dollars (other than some personal time) on training, 15 bucks on getting a license and have now spent too much money on radios but that's because I like to try different brands before I settle and frankly, cause I don't mind spending a bit to get a lot and I know that anything I don't need can eventually be resold. Ham radio isn't a panacea but it will solve the overwhelming majority of the needs that have been asked about here with a few exceptions, most of which can't be solved with civilian radios at all. The folks fighting the GMSR, FRS, CB, MURS, etc battle are simply postponing the inevitable and ironically, wasting more of that precious cash that many claim they don't have.

I get the comparisons with gun purchasing and those conversations are just as bad but this is the communications forum and there are some really well thought out and well written responses that answer these sorts of questions that continue to simply get ignored for the reasons I've already stated.
I'd also add that in many of the gun threads there are very distinct brand and caliber arguments, many of which are simply stupid but there are fewer threads in which people ask how to to get a gun without doing it legally or without spending any money etc. There seems to be general agreement, with some dissenting opinions, that owning a gun or two is a good idea, the rest of the arguments are simply part of the gun culture. In the case of radio communications, there seems to be a more fundamental disconnect between the stated needs and the actual needs and the means to achieve either or both. In other words, I see a fundamental difference between the debate of 9mm vs .45 cal and what rifle is best and asking how to communicate with someone that is 5 miles away from me using a radio. I could be wrong.

The majority of the people don't even know who they're planning to communicate with in the first place and when they're given good, sound information they still want to argue about it and try to resolve a problem that's been solved for many years now with equipment that is widely available and with an information base that is readily available and willing to help.

I just don't get it.

And yeah I know, it's more hyperbole...;^)

P.S. Ham isn't an acronym, it's a slang title for someone who uses amateur radios. It should never be capitalized unless of course it's the first word of a sentence.

P.P.S. If anyone truly can't afford actual radio equipment, that's fine, but trying to make some 29 dollar Walmart blister packed pieces o'crap into a modern communications system simply doesn't work. I'd add that if you think you can't afford it, either reassess your actual needs or accept the reality and move on.

P.P.S.S. I know I get onto these rants sometimes, no offense intended to any particular person.

[KJ4VOV]

Again, much of that is hyperbole and mis-understanding, but think of it like this: If you wanted an HD rifle, and had never shot a gun before, do you want to be told you need 20 mags loaded with Hornady 77-gr TAP and a $2000 DD Lightweight Carbine with $200 of Magpul and Troy parts added and a $500 optic, and at least $300 worth of spare ammo?

Actually, if that's what it takes to meet the criteria and requirements I set forth in my question, then yes, that's exactly what I want to be told.

To continue your firearm analogy, if I post a thread saying that I wanted help choosing a firearm and my requirements were that I didn't want to have to know much more than how to pull the trigger, be able to take down a rabbit at 500 yards (without ruining the meat), a Kodiak bear at 100 yards, maybe the occasional light aircraft or lightly armored vehicle, silently and without a muzzle flash, yet be small enough to fit in my watch pocket, not require any kind of license or training, and my budget is $100, wouldn't your response be very similar to some of the responses given here when the subject is radio and not firearms?

[Doctorr Fabulous]

That's why I did the firearms comparison. Ref. birdshot for HD, how can I shoot 1000m for less than $500, etc. Yes, there are ridiculous requests, but patience is a virtue, and as comm geeks you must accept that many people need education, and many do not see ham as a requirement, or have a specific reason to not want a ham set. If you point out the available solutions in direct regards to the OP's question and ham is the only solution for the criteria, then say so. But saying tha the blanket answer is ham would be like saying that everyone's HD gun should be be an EBR. If there's another solution offer it, and be patient with those who are not in the know, or don't care to be a ham.

For those requesting illegal shit, let them know, and point them to the rules. Don't post a thread bitching that people who don't know radios are ignorant of radio capabilities and solutions. It's kind of assholish and offputting to people who are interested in radio communications as a tool, but not as a hobby.

[JohnE]

Well first off, I wasn't bitching so much as I was making an observation about how threads here seem to drift into the same place on a regular basis, and secondly, "assholish" isn't a word.

I find it offputting when people who admit that they know little to nothing about a topic ask a question and then dismiss the answers given to them and in the process they dismiss the people who offer help because the advice they're given doesn't fit into whatever box they're using to collect information.

The overwhelming majority of the time when the topic of what sort of radio equipment should a person get to accomplish a given task is raised, the answer is Ham radio. That's just the reality of things, there are no other radios available to civilians that will do what most people say that they want to be able to do with them in most cases. Obviously if you only need to talk to someone across the street or within your eyesight and a few other specific situations there are other solutions but again, the overwhelming majority of the questions asked here can be answered with a Ham setup.

It doesn't really matter in the end, those folks who want to actually communicate with others will either figure out the reality or they'll continue to buy inadequate equipment and miss out on being able to do a lot of the things that they say they'd like to do. I simply find it ironic how many times the same relative question is asked, politely and persuasively answered and those answers are either ignored or dismissed. The legal stuff just gets silly as some people try so desperately to find a way around rules that are so easy to follow in the first place.

P.S. I don't know what a "comms geek" is, but I know I'm not one. I'm an entry level Ham radio operator that's figured out some ways to communicate with equipment and methods that are widely available and easy to learn to use. I don't live and breathe by that knowledge and equipment, I use them both as tools and on occasion, to help non-profit groups with communication needs.

[AeroRat]

re: Heavy Boots

Reminds me of something I overheard when I was in flight school.

The question was asked of a student pilot why the descending blade of an aircraft propeller would produce more thrust then the ascending blade. The short version has to do with angle of attack of the blade being greater, thus resulting in a bigger 'bite' taken and a greater amount of air pushed back (i.e., thrust). But...

...the student replied, straight-faced. "Gravity."

***

Is it possible that a generation-wide failure to understand the forces of gravitational pull is responsible for a retarded society? I hadn't considered this before, but it appears to be a running theme.

Okay. I'll un-hijack your thread now and go back to reading.

[williaty]

That's why I did the firearms comparison. Ref. birdshot for HD, how can I shoot 1000m for less than $500, etc. Yes, there are ridiculous requests, but patience is a virtue, and as comm geeks you must accept that many people need education, and many do not see ham as a requirement, or have a specific reason to not want a ham set. If you point out the available solutions in direct regards to the OP's question and ham is the only solution for the criteria, then say so. But saying tha the blanket answer is ham would be like saying that everyone's HD gun should be be an EBR. If there's another solution offer it, and be patient with those who are not in the know, or don't care to be a ham.

For those requesting illegal shit, let them know, and point them to the rules. Don't post a thread bitching that people who don't know radios are ignorant of radio capabilities and solutions. It's kind of assholish and offputting to people who are interested in radio communications as a tool, but not as a hobby.

Your gun analogy was a good idea, but you really got the level of the question wrong.

Most of the radio communications questions are more analogous to:

I'd really like to be able to use balls of lead to poke holes in people without having to approach to contact distance. I've heard of those gun things, but I don't like the fact that I have to pass a background check, it's way too expensive anyway, and my wife doesn't like the idea of guns. Can I just, like, put it in a tube and smack it with a stick or something?

Sure, when presented with this question, answers include slings, slingshots, trebuchets, magnetic induction launchers, and compressed air. However, the most correct answer is to just buy a ready-made off the shelf gun. Sure, you have to interact with the government. Sure, you have to spend money. Sure, you have to learn about weird technical bullshit like making sure your ammo fits your weapon. Sure, you have to commit to training. However, everyone on here is going to tell them to pull on their big girl panties and buy a gun. It's the same with radio communications. Most of the time, for most civilians, Amateur Radio is going to be either the right answer or at least a part of the right answer. We don't expect good firearms to be quick, cheap, and easy. Why on earth would you expect radio communications (which are WAY more complicated) to be easier than firearms? Yes, there are grades of difficulty in firearms and radio. CB is the double-barreled-shotgun of the radio world. Does what it says on the tin but we can do a lot better. FRS is the BB gun. Amateur Radio is anything from a store-bought AK/AR, to that with every tacticool part in the book, to an heirloom over-and-under that someone turned out by hand.

I'm a strong proponent of Amateur Radio. However, I have absolutely no interest in it as a hobby. It happens to be the best tool for the job available to me as a civilian, so I use it as such.

[KJ4VOV]

That's why I did the firearms comparison. Ref. birdshot for HD, how can I shoot 1000m for less than $500, etc. Yes, there are ridiculous requests, but patience is a virtue, and as comm geeks you must accept that many people need education, and many do not see ham as a requirement, or have a specific reason to not want a ham set. If you point out the available solutions in direct regards to the OP's question and ham is the only solution for the criteria, then say so. But saying tha the blanket answer is ham would be like saying that everyone's HD gun should be be an EBR. If there's another solution offer it, and be patient with those who are not in the know, or don't care to be a ham.

For those requesting illegal shit, let them know, and point them to the rules. Don't post a thread bitching that people who don't know radios are ignorant of radio capabilities and solutions. It's kind of assholish and offputting to people who are interested in radio communications as a tool, but not as a hobby.

I still think your analogy is a bit "off", but I do understand the point you're trying to make, and I agree with you to a certain extent.

Regarding the "blanket" answer, "ham" is the answer to most radio communications beyond about 5 miles the same way that "rifle" is the answer to accurate shooting beyond 25 yards, particularly if you're looking for an "out of the box" solution. Can the two requirements be met other ways? Sure. You could train really hard, invest a ton of money in equipment and modifications, and become very good at picking off targets at >25yd with a pistol. But it's not going to be that $150 "special" you found at the pawn shop. In the same way, sure, you can communicate reliably at distances greater than 5 miles with methods other than amateur radio, but it's not going to be with anything you find in Wal-Mart.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I still think your analogy is a bit "off", but I do understand the point you're trying to make, and I agree with you to a certain extent.

Regarding the "blanket" answer, "ham" is the answer to most radio communications beyond about 5 miles the same way that "rifle" is the answer to accurate shooting beyond 25 yards, particularly if you're looking for an "out of the box" solution. Can the two requirements be met other ways? Sure. You could train really hard, invest a ton of money in equipment and modifications, and become very good at picking off targets at >25yd with a pistol. But it's not going to be that $150 "special" you found at the pawn shop. In the same way, sure, you can communicate reliably at distances greater than 5 miles with methods other than amateur radio, but it's not going to be with anything you find in Wal-Mart.[/quote]

This is the best response I've seen yet. Particularly the bolded bits. I understand no analogy is perfect, and if someone's asking for a ham solution but demanding something other than ham, by all means, tell them it's ham.

But don't post a thread bemoaning the ignorance of non-radio people.

Also, hams are comm geeks. They makes teh radios work and crackle and squeak and talk, and are therefore comm geeks.

[zommoz10]

Also, hams are comm geeks. They makes teh radios work and crackle and squeak and talk, and are therefore comm geeks.

If you ask me, it's stereotypes like this that are probably the seed for which this thread was planted. When you broadbrush hams as geeks in a sort of community of other geeks, it's easy to understand why many people think there's more of a barrier to entry or more radio service than they need.

Hams come from all walks of life. Many of them are not into the technology at all. I live in a sprawling area with a lot of commuters. Many hams became hams for the sole purpose of having someone to talk to on the way into work. If you start talking HF or anything radio with them, they will, in no uncertain terms, tell you to change the topic of conversation or they bid you farewell.

If a person can stuff a relatively small amount of information into short term memory,they can pass the exam.

As for the OP, I kinda think it's nice that there's a radio service (or two, or three) for people who don't want to learn how to use their radios and a radio service for people who do. If a poster is not receptive to what's required, I just leave them to figure it out on their own. I figured it out at the age of 14.

[KJ4VOV]

But don't post a thread bemoaning the ignorance of non-radio people.

Not sure why this is being said to me but I don't seem to be seeing the original post here in quite the same light you are.

Must be the "radio geek" in me.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Geek is just .mil speak for "guys that understand electronics" whether it's radios, computers, or what have you. But from the perspective of the great unwashed, guys that got a ham license at 14, or guys that have multiple set-ups are the high-end users. If you spend more than one night per month talking via ham to someone you could just as easily telephone, it's a hobby. Same goes for getting on rag-chew nets and the like.

But my basic point stands, posting a thread like this with the whiney/superior tone used in the first post is not helping the "club" image, and does nothing to solve the problem.

[Grant]

I'm actually working on my HAM license now, but I think the problem of Amateur radio is that you can't easily 'share' it with other people. This summer I will be working with a mixed crowd of college and high school students and for field use we've used a combination of FRS walkie talkies and CB. Even if I had my license yet, one licensed guy in the group is not going to work for what we need (short range communications in an agricultural setting where cell phones don't work). For this case, CB is actually a better choice as I can put radios in anyone's car that needs one and not have to worry about much. If I give a ham radio to someone they can't transmit on it legally.

All tools are for certain jobs. I don't hammer a nail with a tuning fork, and there's nothing wrong with a crude blunt instrument when you just want to hammer something.

That being said, I WANT a ham license and I'm working towards that goal now as it would have great utility for real wide-spread emergencies, as opposed to local issues.

[zommoz10]

Geek is just .mil speak for "guys that understand electronics" whether it's radios, computers, or what have you.

I know what a geek is, thankyouverymuch.
To say that every ham is a radio geek isn't any more true than saying CBers are all foul-mouthed truckers. One could also pull a half dozen or so far more offensive examples just from the westboro nexus of h8.

For every ham I know of that's a bona fide radio geek, I can think of 3 hams that aren't. So why wouldn't someone get a ham license to talk to their (whatever) who has no interest in radio theory? The exam covers very little theory. Most of it is on operation and regulation. I can think of some reasons why, but "because I don't want to make it a hobby" isn't one of them.

If someone doesn't want to take the time to learn operation, regulations and a smidgen of theory, then they aren't equipped to deal with the higher power and additional privileges. Same as someone who hasn't studied the driving manual, isn't equipped to get behind the wheel of a car. There's nothing wrong with that but I can understand to some degree, the OP's frustration.

By the way, the last time I made a transmission on the ham band was back in July when I was attempting to contact someone from a location that was 8 miles from the nearest cell phone reception. I'm still a radio geek but I don't make transmissions all that much.

[Sgt_Stadanko]

This original post is a little dickish.

So someone doesnt know as much as you about radio. Perhaps they dont care to. Perhaps they only want a radio for emergency situations, and getting a license and $1k worth of equipment is not justifiable for them.

I want to know how to soup up my $100 best buy pair of radios. Everything can be modified, so why not these? Why not just post a link to some sort of amplifier and try to get it stickied to keep people from asking how to get a better signal? I have used a beer can on a router to get a better signal, how about some homebrew stuff regarding that?

The kind of post that was presented, although it may made you feel better, is discouraging to others. Thats not what I signed up for on ZS.

[TacAir]

This original post is a little dickish.

So someone doesnt know as much as you about radio. Perhaps they dont care to. Perhaps they only want a radio for emergency situations, and getting a license and $1k worth of equipment is not justifiable for them.

I want to know how to soup up my $100 best buy pair of radios. Everything can be modified, so why not these? Why not just post a link to some sort of amplifier and try to get it stickied to keep people from asking how to get a better signal? I have used a beer can on a router to get a better signal, how about some homebrew stuff regarding that?

The kind of post that was presented, although it may made you feel better, is discouraging to others. Thats not what I signed up for on ZS.

rulez - ZS and disussion of illegal modification of comm gear do not go together.

it's what makes ZS, well ZS. I would dare say that is what most folks signed up to get. your 100 dollar radios fall into the 'do not f with' catagory.

as far as can antennas
http://forums.radioreference.com/cb-rad ... tenna.html
a cb forum where they discuss- and make fun of the idea - it's not just ZS

YMMV or so it seems.
for the record I build a soup can atenna for 10M two years ago for a goofy antenna contest.

www.armymars.net/ArmyMARS/Antennas/.../ ... pdfSimilar
if you want to try some stuff on your own.


/. thread

[KJ4VOV]

I want to know how to soup up my $100 best buy pair of radios. Everything can be modified, so why not these? Why not just post a link to some sort of amplifier and try to get it stickied to keep people from asking how to get a better signal? I have used a beer can on a router to get a better signal, how about some homebrew stuff regarding that?

Because that would be illegal under Federal law (modifying those radios) and thus not postable on ZS.

[44Dave]

I think this thread should be stickied.

[KJ4VOV]

I think this thread should be stickied.

Actually, I think a better idea would be a "Comms FAQ" that could be made up of the best parts of all the various posts on this subject. I wish I had time to work on it myself, but maybe I could assist someone who wanted to try doing one?