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 Post subject: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:11 pm 
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Simplex repeaters provide a low-cost option for expanding radio coverage for handheld radios. Additionally, they can broadcast timed messages and beacons. The most current model on the market is the ADS-SR1 for $89.00 bucks.

https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/prod ... ucts_id=98

Note: Check the regulations for the specific radio service your are using before connecting this device (they are leagal for Amateur use).


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:35 pm 
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I've never used one of these, but I think it would get very confusing having everything repeated on a time delay like that, if any stations were within direct simplex range of each other. Those stations would hear everything twice, (while stations further away would only hear the rebroadcast) wouldn't they?

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:34 am 
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KJ4VOV wrote:
I've never used one of these, but I think it would get very confusing having everything repeated on a time delay like that, if any stations were within direct simplex range of each other. Those stations would hear everything twice, (while stations further away would only hear the rebroadcast) wouldn't they?



Not as much as you would think - everyone has to be briefed on it's use before hand, maybe it sits on one frequency and operations sit on another - many ways to use.

The voice mail feature is a big plus on the other. In the end it gives 'repeater like' service at a faction of the size, cost and complexity of a full up (and Licensed) repeater.

It could also be used as a cross-band repeater with only a delay in the message speed to be noticed.

OP - thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:49 am 
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Radio Shack used to sell something like that years ago.

If $89 is out of budget, you can use a program called Echostation which has a lot of the same features and you can control it remotely with dtmf. You'll need to leave a computer on obviously, a radio to connect it to and a rig blaster type cable. It's great for testing the range of your base station. You can also use it as a duplex repeater controller if I'm not mistaken, if you set it up with another radio.

It works great but one word of caution to be sure to set the volume correctly and test it thoroughly before you leave or it can get keyed up and transmit continuously until you get back.


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:38 am 
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TacAir wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote:
I've never used one of these, but I think it would get very confusing having everything repeated on a time delay like that, if any stations were within direct simplex range of each other. Those stations would hear everything twice, (while stations further away would only hear the rebroadcast) wouldn't they?



Not as much as you would think - everyone has to be briefed on it's use before hand, maybe it sits on one frequency and operations sit on another - many ways to use.

The voice mail feature is a big plus on the other. In the end it gives 'repeater like' service at a faction of the size, cost and complexity of a full up (and Licensed) repeater.

It could also be used as a cross-band repeater with only a delay in the message speed to be noticed.

OP - thanks!


Yes, I see where the voice mail would be a big plus. As to the rest, I suppose I'll have to wait until I try using one before I can really form any opinion on how it operates.

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:41 am 
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zommoz10 wrote:
Radio Shack used to sell something like that years ago.

If $89 is out of budget, you can use a program called Echostation which has a lot of the same features and you can control it remotely with dtmf. You'll need to leave a computer on obviously, a radio to connect it to and a rig blaster type cable. It's great for testing the range of your base station. You can also use it as a duplex repeater controller if I'm not mistaken, if you set it up with another radio.

It works great but one word of caution to be sure to set the volume correctly and test it thoroughly before you leave or it can get keyed up and transmit continuously until you get back.


I believe that alone would make it illegal to use. FCC regs (I'll find and quote them if there's any question about this) require that you be able to take it off the air remotely at any time.

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:47 am 
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For my own part, I like the simplicity of using a radio that can cross-band repeat. When I operate as an NCS during public service events I usually have at least one rig in the truck setup as a cross-band repeater (either my FTM-350AR or my FT-8500) and that works very nicely. Using just my HT on low power I can roam anywhere around the truck and still reach all stations on the net.

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:52 am 
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KJ4VOV wrote:
I believe that alone would make it illegal to use. FCC regs (I'll find and quote them if there's any question about this) require that you be able to take it off the air remotely at any time.


If it was malfunctioning, you'd obviously not be in compliance. That's why I warned about it. But with the correct adjustment, it has all the control features you'd need to be in compliance. A stuck mic can and does regularly happen with hardware based repeaters, base stations, Echolink/IRLP nodes, even mobiles and HTs.


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:48 pm 
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I have two of these units and they work great. I can remotely turn the repeat on and off with DTMF commands. The unit is 100% programmable over-the-air with DTMF commands, including modulation level. They are great little boxes for the price.

Two other great features, ability to draw power from the radio (if the radio provides power on the accessory jack) and two option high/low jacks for driving relays to remotely control devices (i.e. lights, alarm system, remote PC/router reboots).


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:57 am 
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Like others I have one of the old radio shack unit around here somewhere

We used the MFJ version hooked up to a kenwood TM541A [23cm band @ 1 watt] to extend our range, up to about 10 miles

the problem for the users on any of these is the parrot effect, basically having to hear your transmission repeated so the others can get it. this gets quite annoying after any serious use I discovered

the other problem is that if you do not follow protocol you 1st & then the other ham next, you are always doubling with each other

you really need to get the unit as high and in the clear as possible to really extend your range, or use a mobile radio with a cross band repeat function to extend your range if you near your location

if you are installing one of these with an HT I woudl recommend taking the belt clip off and attaching some heat sink material here [at least the older radio went to the metal frame] to help release the heat from the HT in almost continious use, most HT's are not duty rated to work in this fashion, so you run the risk of burning it up...


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:44 am 
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I always wanted to try sending one of those things up in a weather balloon. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:18 am 
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KJ4VOV wrote:
zommoz10 wrote:
Radio Shack used to sell something like that years ago.

If $89 is out of budget, you can use a program called Echostation which has a lot of the same features and you can control it remotely with dtmf. You'll need to leave a computer on obviously, a radio to connect it to and a rig blaster type cable. It's great for testing the range of your base station. You can also use it as a duplex repeater controller if I'm not mistaken, if you set it up with another radio.

It works great but one word of caution to be sure to set the volume correctly and test it thoroughly before you leave or it can get keyed up and transmit continuously until you get back.


I believe that alone would make it illegal to use. FCC regs (I'll find and quote them if there's any question about this) require that you be able to take it off the air remotely at any time.


From the unit in question site
"Unit remains controllable even with stuck receiver squelch "
I would like to see a time-out timer. And sure enough, in the manual is this gem

"If a time limit is set, the repeater will record only to this limit and will then
immediately transmit what it recorded, even if the sender is still talking. If the
cool‐down timer is enabled, the unit will stop repeating until the timer expires.
This helps prevent transmitter overheating, and allows a repeater with a stuck
squelch to be controlled, as it will still respond to commands even while the cooldown
timer is active."

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:45 am 
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Thanks TacAir, that is good information to know.

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NOTE: Due to the rising cost of ammunition, warning shots will no longer be given.

There's always a certain percentage of any population with the conviction that society is a conspiracy to deny them their rights.
The right to be totally ignorant of any useful knowledge seems to be the basic one.
- Keith Laumer


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:30 pm 
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TacAir wrote:

From the unit in question site


I was referring to Echostation software, not the ADS-SR1
But now that you mention it I'm sure echostation has a t-o-t and most modern mobiles have a t-o-t feature. Even still, it could be keyed up again and again if nobody's paying attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:43 pm 
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zommoz10 wrote:
TacAir wrote:

From the unit in question site


I was referring to Echostation software, not the ADS-SR1
But now that you mention it I'm sure echostation has a t-o-t and most modern mobiles have a t-o-t feature. Even still, it could be keyed up again and again if nobody's paying attention.


That's why repeater require a control operator.

From our friends at the FCC

Retransmitting Signals of Other Stations

Q: May my station retransmit the signals emanating from other amateur stations?
Yes, generally. Section 97.113, however, requires that the control operator of your station manually cause the retransmission because the radio signals of other amateur stations must not be automatically retransmitted.

Q: What do the words "manually" and "automatically" imply?
"Manually" means the retransmission is caused by some immediate physical action, e.g.,activating a push-to-talk key, voice-actuated-switch or similar action, by the control operator. "Automatically" means the retransmission is accomplished by some other means, such as a device which determines that a specific reaction is called for and then causes it to occur.

Q: Are there exceptions where my amateur station may automatically retransmit the radio signals of other amateur stations?
Yes. The Rules provide such accommodation for three types of operation. Section 97.201 accommodates auxiliary stations, Section 97.205 accommodates repeater stations and Section 97.207 accommodates space stations.

Call out the Oh-Oh squad?

Nope.

Q: Are the rules for simplex repeaters the same as duplex repeaters?

A: A “simplex repeater” is not a repeater according to the FCC. It does not simultaneously retransmit the signals of another station and it might not retransmit the signals on a different channel or channels, as specified in the FCC’s definition of a repeater.
Since it isn’t a repeater, such a device cannot be operated under automatic control. If a control operator is present and controlling the device, either by local or remote control, then it can be used, but it cannot be left unattended!

On the other hand, it is not limited by the other repeater rules, such as specific repeater frequency limitations. Auxiliary stations must control the simplex repeater and control must be conducted on frequencies authorized for auxiliary operation (above 222.15 MHz,
except 431 to 433 and 435 to 438 MHz).


And there you have it. The key words here are "present and controlling"

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Where did you see that? Where did that Q & A come from? Just curious.


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:13 pm 
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zommoz10 wrote:
Where did you see that? Where did that Q & A come from? Just curious.


Oddly enough - as I originally posted "From our friends at the FCC"

the very last bit of Q & A came from the ARRL- based on FCC rules.

The FCC has it's own website with a search function, if you ask it nicely enough, it will likely puke out the exact bits of real Federal Law and usually the cites have an expanded explanation. Pretty cool site, the FedGov is rarely this friendly.
.
Folks may have noticed that for 'important' stuff, I normally offer a source, regulation or both when I post.

For fiction, well, I pretty much make that up - but even then, it's based on real-deal stuff. For example on my latest story, I mention Clam Lake as an ELF TX site. IT does exist, and is still in use.

For opinion stuff, - well, that is IMO, same as everybody else....

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:33 pm 
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Nice thread guys, thanks for the info!

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:44 am 
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Have you got a link to /URL for it?
If the FCC specifically says no unattended simplex repeaters than that just sucks.

Personally, I think that the ARRL should lobby to have that rule changed as unattended simplex repeaters have useful applications.


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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:16 am 
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zommoz10 wrote:
Have you got a link to /URL for it?
If the FCC specifically says no unattended simplex repeaters than that just sucks.

Personally, I think that the ARRL should lobby to have that rule changed as unattended simplex repeaters have useful applications.


Are you currently a dues-paying member of the ARRL?

Yes = Contact them, I have no say

No = Join, pay your dues, write letters. Nothing happens for free.

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 Post subject: Re: Simplex Repeater
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:09 am 
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Get a Kenwood TMV-7A dual band mobile, put the radio on VHF recieve (146.550 mhz) and UHF transmit (446.025 mhz). Power the radio up in locked band mode. This makes the radio transmit 146.550 audio to 446.025. (In locked band mode, it won't repeat 446 back to 146. Buy yourself four Wouxan KGV walkies and set them up to transmit on 146.550 while receiving on 446.025 mhz. Now you have your repeater with no cross band box required.

RS

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