Radio communications: how viable long-term?

[SteveD]

How many potatos,zinc plates and copper plates will it take to make a 12v 600ah battery?

[woodwose]

Here is a clever bit of electronical gadgetry for your PAW retreat:

http://screwdecaf.cx/BatDLX.html

And you can revive dead batteries for barter or whatever.

'wose

[KJ4VOV]

Here is a clever bit of electronical gadgetry for your PAW retreat:

http://screwdecaf.cx/BatDLX.html

And you can revive dead batteries for barter or whatever.

'wose

Nice find. Thanks for sharing the link.

[MacAttack]

You can buy motor cycle batteries without any acid in them. they come with an separate acid bottle that you use to fill the battery when you install it. They will last a hundred years this way.

If you don't want to use two motor cycle batteries instead of just one car battery you can always just drain the acid out of a car battery. Save the acid in a glass jar and rince out the battery with fresh water. Store drained and upside down to dry. Once dry put the caps back on to keep spiders out.

the lead plates and acid will then last years kept separate and safe.


To use the battery just add the acid back and recharge with anything you have from a solar charger to a pedal generator.


Jell type batteries would be the worst to try to keep since you have no way of draining them to save them. So use them first.

[teotwaki]

How many corpses of the undead,zinc plates and copper plates will it take to make a 12v 600ah battery?

fixed it for ya!

[Winston Smith]

Has this thread ever looked into the possibility of an EMP causing radios to be useless, and/or radios that are resistant to or can be repaired for use after an EMP? It's a serious concern if things get all nukey.

[teotwaki]

The only type of radio that would be liable to not work at all in the long-term are the types that require a running infrastructure for the client devices to operate on: Cell phones, trunk system, and APCO-25 digital systems come to mind.


Everything else would simply need to be reconfigured to a simplex channel if the handset is configured to operate on a repeater, or continue to operate as business as usual if it's strictly a simplex device: CB, MURS, GMRS, amateur.

As for APCO25 stuff not working, I think you might be referring to trunked public safety systems that rely solely on a wired infrastructure for proper operation. Even in the event of a communication infrastructure failure, each repeater site can be configured to run in a fail-back conventional (in-cabinet repeat) mode if needed. Also, single site/conventional APCO25 repeaters will not be affected by a communication infrastructure failure like trunked, cell systems. I know of 1 p25 repeater on a mountain in CO that is completely off the grid. The only thing that would render it a museum piece would be an EMP. Ive got both a VHF & UHF astro mobiles at 140 wats & 110 watts respectively. I've talked unit to unit about 30 miles in the right conditions on simplex. So, with that said, I think that anything other that an EMP, I think that P25 radios would be a viable solution especially running crypto on P25.

I have two Datron Guardian VHF handhelds that can handle analog wide, analog narrow and APCO P-25 modes. That includes running simplex direct in APCO-25 digital and encrypted. Clever guys have taken two walkie talkies, a car battery and a solar charging setup to create crude but effective repeaters tht can sit on a local hilltop or building.

[teotwaki]

Has this thread ever looked into the possibility of an EMP causing radios to be useless, and/or radios that are resistant to or can be repaired for use after an EMP? It's a serious concern if things get all nukey.

There was a generation of military cold war radios that were built to handle emp. Best that we might do is have built our own Faraday cage to shield our gear.

Take a look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J19SuEBgrR0

and here:
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/emp_a ... _cages.htm

[nateted4]

Has this thread ever looked into the possibility of an EMP causing radios to be useless, and/or radios that are resistant to or can be repaired for use after an EMP? It's a serious concern if things get all nukey.

The EMP thing is overrated as to it's scope and effect. If you are affected to the point where your gear is fried, then you have much bigger problems than no radio. It means you'd be within the scope of all the other near field effects of a blast: pressure, temperature and other forms of radiation.

[teotwaki]

Has this thread ever looked into the possibility of an EMP causing radios to be useless, and/or radios that are resistant to or can be repaired for use after an EMP? It's a serious concern if things get all nukey.

The EMP thing is overrated as to it's scope and effect. If you are affected to the point where your gear is fried, then you have much bigger problems than no radio. It means you'd be within the scope of all the other near field effects of a blast: pressure, temperature and other forms of radiation.

Actually not completely correct.... the following is from an article found through the links I posted

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra ... 88/CM2.htm

Electromagnetic Pulse-From Chaos To A Manageable Solution
AUTHOR Major M. CaJohn, USMC
CSC 1988
SUBJECT AREA C4


....there are four significant types of EMP.
The first, surface burst electromagnetic pulse (EMP), occurs when the nuclear burst explodes on the earth's surface or up to two kilometers above the surface. The radiated wave is only propagated to a distance of ten to twenty kilometers from the burst point due to the higher density of the lower atmosphere. Although the area over which the low-altitude EMP produces a damaging effect is relatively small, it is significant on the tactical nuclear battlefield (9:1-10-1-11).
The second type, high-altitude EMP (HEMP), is the most significant and, potentially, the most hazardous to our security. The explosion of a nuclear burst at an altitude greater than 30 to over 500 kilometers above the earth's surface will produce the above scenario. Due to the very thin to non existent atmosphere at these altitudes, the gammma rays emitted from the explosion will travel radically outward for long distances. Those gamma rays traveling toward the earth's atmosphere are stopped by collisions with atmospheric molecules at altitudes between 20 and 40 kilometers. These collisions generate Compton recoil electrons which interact with the earth's magnetic field to produce a downward traveling electromagnetic wave. This high altitude burst will not generate any other nuclear effect at the earth's surface (9:1-5).
However, this type of nuclear explosion also produces a vast ground coverage. Significant HEMP levels occur at the earth's surface out to where the line of sight from the burst contacts the earth's surface. Consequently, a nuclear burst over the central part of the United States at an altitude of 500 kilometers would produce an EMP field that would incapacitate all communications systems in the continental United States (9:1-8).
The third type of EMP is source region EMP (SREMP). This is produced by a nuclear burst within several hundred meters of the earth's surface (the fireball touches the ground). SREMP is localized three to five kilometers from the burst. The generation of EMP by a surface blast begins with the gamma rays traveling radically outward from the burst. This action causes the Compton electrons to move radically outward and leaves behind immobile positive ions. This produces an electric field and lasts two to three nano seconds. The final result is a tremendous surge on current in the air on any communications equipment and the SREMP renders the equipment useless (9:1-10-13).
The last type of EMP is system generated EMP (SGEMP). SGEMP results from the interaction of x-rays or gamma rays striking an atom on a metal object. A nuclear blast in outer space sends gamma rays or x-rays out in all directions. If these rays were to strike an unprotected satellite or missile traveling above the atmosphere, these rays would knock out electrons from the atoms of the metal skin. This action would induce an EMP field that would make the satellite and the missiles useless (9:1-17-1-21 & 5:75-76).
Although the EMP effect was known to exist during the detonationtion of conventional explosives prior to the first atomic explosion and was predicted in nuclear weapons' tests, the extent and potentially serious nature of EMP were not realized for several years. Several incidents related to the 1963 detonation of a 1.4 megaton nuclear device 250 miles above Johnston Island highlighted the potential effects of EMP. Immediately following the detonation, the island of Oahu, Hawaii, which was located 800 miles from ground zero, experienced several power outages, the activation of hundreds of burglar alarms and the short-circuiting of thirty strings of streetlights (1).

[KJ4VOV]

EMP is a valid concern, and you don't need to be within the blast radius to take damage to your electronics. You can take steps to minimize the damage to your gear. One web site you might want to look at is http://empactamerica.org/

I attended a lecture by Dr. Pry at an emergency communications conference in Rochester, NY back in September that was very informative.

[teotwaki]

EMP is a valid concern, and you don't need to be within the blast radius to take damage to your electronics. You can take steps to minimize the damage to your gear. One web site you might want to look at is http://empactamerica.org/

I attended a lecture by Dr. Pry at an emergency communications conference in Rochester, NY back in September that was very informative.

Exactly my point: reference the example where Hawaii was 800 miles away from a blast that was 250 miles above the earth and EMP had quite the impact on Oahu

[nateted4]

EMP is a valid concern, and you don't need to be within the blast radius to take damage to your electronics. You can take steps to minimize the damage to your gear. One web site you might want to look at is http://empactamerica.org/

I attended a lecture by Dr. Pry at an emergency communications conference in Rochester, NY back in September that was very informative.

Exactly my point: reference the example where Hawaii was 800 miles away from a blast that was 250 miles above the earth and EMP had quite the impact on Oahu

Minimal impact on Oahu. I'm still not losing any sleep over this.

[Radio guy]

You forget ther were no delicate and sensitive solid state electronics in widespread use when these tests were run, duplicating the test today would break a lot of stuff.

One of the things that happens with an air burst Nuke is the earths magnetic field is disrupted in the area and the rapid jolt in magnetic lines of force induce currents in every electrical conductor within range. These conductors can be power lines or circuit board traces in our equipment, etc.
Radio Guy

Minimal impact on Oahu. I'm still not losing any sleep over this.

[nateted4]

I'm willing to cede that if China or Russia (no one else has the capability to airburst besides our direct allies) wanted to, they could maximize for EMP, so maybe unplug and disconnect from the antennas when not in use? Still, I don't think the reds will be starting any wars in the near future. It just seems to me to be a non-problem.

edit: removed partial quote

[KJ4VOV]

I'm willing to cede that if China or Russia (no one else has the capability to airburst besides our direct allies) wanted to, they could maximize for EMP, so maybe unplug and disconnect from the antennas when not in use? Still, I don't think the reds will be starting any wars in the near future. It just seems to me to be a non-problem.

edit: removed partial quote

That's a start, but not anywhere near good enough to survive even a modest EMP surge. At all times at least one complete set of my radios (2m/70cm rig, HF rig, two dual band HTs, two pairs of GMRS HTs) are stored in ESD bags, inside steel containers, which are in turn inside the steel box on my truck. Not optimal, by any means, but at least moderately well protected.

[Radio guy]

An intended air burst at quite some distance can induce thousands of volts along the circuit board traces in your radio sitting on a desk unplugged from power and antenna. Your radio would cease to be a radio any more and protecting it for 100% survivability is not an easy task.
Radio Guy

I'm willing to cede that if China or Russia (no one else has the capability to airburst besides our direct allies) wanted to, they could maximize for EMP, so maybe unplug and disconnect from the antennas when not in use? Still, I don't think the reds will be starting any wars in the near future. It just seems to me to be a non-problem.

edit: removed partial quote

[KJ4VOV]

And let us not forget that nuclear detonation isn't the only possible source of strong EMP.

[RadioShooter]

An intended air burst at quite some distance can induce thousands of volts along the circuit board traces in your radio sitting on a desk unplugged from power and antenna. Your radio would cease to be a radio any more and protecting it for 100% survivability is not an easy task.

EMP would be more damaging to equipment connected to power lines and long antennas. I find it hard to see thousands of volts induced on small PC board trace runs. Wouldn't such induced power detonate your ammunition primers? Flash your fillings out of your mouth? The Soviet Union high altitude tests did melt buried phone lines and destroy switchboards in a power station causing fires in areas directly under the test. Again, this was on equipment with long runs of wire. So any 400 kilometer altitude nuclear air burst is going to wipe out communications, bank records, and any utility power systems leaving millions without food, water, and electricity. Definitely TEOTWAWKI for people without preps. The main question is whether automobiles will run long enough to get family to the BOL.

RS

[teotwaki]

minimal impact on Oahu. I'm still not losing any sleep over this.

EMP doesn't disrupt sleep Your alarm clock will be dead....

Anyhow, the example I cited was for the unintended consequences of a high altitude burst 800 miles away. A deliberate attack would be quite different. It would be more likely to use multiple detonations of weapons "tuned" to produce more EMP than blast damage with a larger than minimal effect.

Referencing the other comment about non-nuclear generation of EMP, there is a technique using conventional explosives to "compress" a magnetic field. Such weapons may have been used against Iraq: http://www.superconductors.org/emp-bomb.htm

I would agree that we should not lose sleep over it, but EMP might trigger a wave of TV-deprived zombies to flood out of the cities. Ha!

[MacAttack]

The MASSIVE damage on Oahu your talking about was actually 24 street lights and one 1950's tv. Remember that back then ground wires and shielding was NOT required or common. Heck some houses didn't even have fuses.


You need long linear runs of unshielded wires to pick up enough EMP to cause trouble. A simple circuit board will NOT gather enough power to cause a jot of trouble.

[teotwaki]

The MASSIVE damage on Oahu your talking about was actually 24 street lights and one 1950's tv. Remember that back then ground wires and shielding was NOT required or common. Heck some houses didn't even have fuses.

You need long linear runs of unshielded wires to pick up enough EMP to cause trouble. A simple circuit board will NOT gather enough power to cause a jot of trouble.

In addtion to the other issues listed, the blast known as "Starfish Prime"had other well-documented but unintended effects given that the blast was 800 miles away from Hawaii.

"............... The weaponeers became quite worried when three satellites in low earth orbit were disabled. These man-made radiation belts eventually crippled one-third of all satellites in low earth orbit. Seven satellites failed over the months following the test as radiation damaged their solar arrays or electronics, including the first commercial relay communication satellite, Telstar.[9][10] Detectors on Telstar, TRAAC, Injun, and Ariel 1 were used to measure distribution of the radiation produced by the tests.[11]"

".....and damaging a telephone company microwave link. The EMP-damaged microwave link shut down telephone calls from Kauai to the other Hawaiian islands.[4]"


I understand that rather than perform any research you want to make it clear that you do not believe in any facts about the effects of EMP and you'll instead resort to ridicule. I'd suggest that for someone with little time to engage in any significant reading that this Wiki link will be of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

Also understand that another source of EMP is a massive Solar storm: 'Carrington Event' of August 27th to September 7th, 1859
In essence, EMP disruptions should just be a normal part of preparing as they will not always be induced by America's enemies.

Here is a fun video with breathless OMG narrative of a small-scale test of emp on a car and a toy helicopter:

Additional information about other EMP tests:

"The Soviet Union got its surprise introduction to the severity of nuclear EMP effects over a much more heavily populated area than the Pacific Ocean. The most damaging nuclear EMP event in history (so far), much worse than the Starfish Prime test, occurred in October of 1962 over central Asia. Written documents give the time and date as 3:41 GMT/UTC on the morning of October 22, 1962. The warhead was launched from Kapustin Yar on a Soviet R-12 missile. Although the primary purpose of the test was to discover the effects of EMP on certain military systems, the large magnitude of some of the effects on the civilian infrastructure were quite unexpected.

A few hours after the sun rose in Kazakhstan on that cloudy October morning, the Soviet Union detonated a 300 kiloton thermonuclear warhead in space at an altitude of 290 kilometers (about 180 miles) over a point just west of the city of Zhezkazgan in central Kazakhstan. The test was generally known only as Test 184 (although some Soviet documents refer to it as K-3). It knocked out a major 1000-kilometer (600-mile) underground power line running from Astana (then called Aqmola), the capital city of Kazakhstan, to the city of Almaty. Several fires were reported. In the city of Karagandy, the EMP started a fire in the city's electrical power plant, which was connected to the long underground power line.

The EMP also knocked out a major 570 kilometer long overhead telephone line by inducing currents of 1500 to 3400 amperes in the line. (The line was separated into several sub-lines connected by repeater stations.) There were numerous gas-filled overvoltage protectors and fuses along the telephone line. All of the overvoltage protectors fired, and all of the fuses on the line were blown. The EMP damaged radios at 600 kilometers (360 miles) from the test and knocked out a radar 1000 kilometers (600 miles) from the detonation. Some military diesel generators were also damaged. The repeated damage to diesel generators from the E1 component of the pulse after the series high-altitude tests was the most surprising aspect of the damage for the Soviet scientists.

Subsequent analysis has shown that the warhead used in the 1962 Soviet test was particularly ineffective at generating EMP. If the W49 warhead used in the U.S. Starfish Prime test had been used in the Soviet tests, the EMP damage over Kazakhstan would have been far greater. "

Another Solar storm story:
May 13, 1921 - The New York Railroad Storm - The prelude to this particular storm began with a major sunspot sighted on the limb of the sun vast enough to be seen with the naked eye through smoked glass. The spot was 94,000 miles long and 21,000 miles wide and by May 14th was near the center of the sun in prime location to unleash an earth-directed flare. The 3-degree magnetic bearing change among the five worst events recorded ended all communications traffic from the Atlantic Coast to the Mississippi. At 7:04 AM on May 15, the entire signal and switching system of the New York Central Railroad below 125th street was put out of operation, followed by a fire in the control tower at 57th Street and Park Avenue. No one had ever heard of such a thing having happened during the course of an auroral display. The cause of the outage was later ascribed to a 'ground current' that had invaded the electrical system. Railroad officials formally assigned blame for a fire destroyed the Central New England Railroad station, to the aurora. Telegraph Operator Hatch said that he was actually driven away from his telegraph instrument by a flame that enveloped his switchboard and ignited the entire building at a loss of $6,000. Over seas, in Sweden a telephone station was 'burned out', and the storm interfered with telephone, telegraph and cable traffic over most of Europe. Aurora were visible in the Eastern United States, with additional reports from Pasadena California where the aurora reached zenith.

[MacAttack]

Believe what ever you wish.



But I also watched the myth busters episode and watched as it took a dozen EMP hits before the car would not restart with a simple fuse replacement.


But I don't rely on 70 year old tests on 70 year old equipment.


Satellites fell out of space all the time. They and the tech they were built from sucked even then.

The last major solar flare that knocked out a satellite knocked out two satellites. Out of dozens in orbit at the time. And one of those two only lost partial ability.

Wasn't it just last month that the largest Aurora event I have ever heard of was visible as far south as Mexico. And no one has yet said something that big has knocked out any satellites yet.

[teotwaki]

Believe what ever you wish.

But I also watched the myth busters episode and watched as it took a dozen EMP hits before the car would not restart with a simple fuse replacement.

But I don't rely on 70 year old tests on 70 year old equipment.

Satellites fell out of space all the time. They and the tech they were built from sucked even then.

The last major solar flare that knocked out a satellite knocked out two satellites. Out of dozens in orbit at the time. And one of those two only lost partial ability.

Wasn't it just last month that the largest Aurora event I have ever heard of was visible as far south as Mexico. And no one has yet said something that big has knocked out any satellites yet.

I think that you are replying to yourself with regards to wishful thinking, but again no real facts....

Satellites do not fall out of the sky after EMP damage. That is pure rhetoric. If "Myth Busters" is the extent of your research then it is no wonder you only believe what you wish to believe. You should at least go back to Discovery Channel and watch http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/curiosi ... hreat.html and look at http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/futur ... -bomb.html

Many solar flares are just too weak to do more than create pretty Aurora effects and they are clearly documented as such. Current activity is not going to peak until the middle of July 2013. But you are mixing EMP effects on satellites with solar flare effects on terrestrial power grids.

As for your vague "70 year old" statement, insurance records can be found for loss payouts on solar flare damage to satellites. For instance, 1994 to 1999 payouts on claims were over half a billion dollars. In fact, an article from the NOAA said:

Increased Vulnerability with Advanced Technologies
The costs and impacts associated with solar storms increase as society becomes more dependant on the high tech innovations that are most vulnerable to solar storm activity. The added complexity of today's power grid system and the lack of reserve power within that system makes it very vulnerable to solar storms. Add to this the ever increasing prevalence and demand for satellite-based systems and you begin see the potential catastrophic impacts solar storms can have on today’s modern society.

Your opinions are just that. Please bring more to the table than a single TV episode of mythbusters as the core of your argument.