combat communication

[angelofwar]

As for secure comm, unless they have the skill to triangulate your position, which is very hard to do for normal people, try using codes...sure they can hear you, but do they know what the hell you're talking about? We keep small cards of all the code words we use and what they mean...easy to pick up after just a few uses. Consider having code words for: Vehicles, your base, fall-out shelter, BOL, Ammo, Food. And consider codes for "actions" as well. "Box of crayons = everyone back to base"; What about duress words? For your action codes and dures words, use words that won't be spoken during a normal conversation (giraffe, platypus, etc.). Also have a cipher set-up, so if you know your being listened to/tracked, you can get out simple words in an emergency. A=P, C=G, etc., and give them to the person at your base and your operator.

Oh, and as the saying goes, "We all know at least one 'tacitcal hand signal'" .I.
IIII/

[Doctorr Fabulous]

As for secure comm, unless they have the skill to triangulate your position, which is very hard to do for normal people, try using codes...sure they can hear you, but do they know what the hell you're talking about? We keep small cards of all the code words we use and what they mean...easy to pick up after just a few uses. Consider having code words for: Vehicles, your base, fall-out shelter, BOL, Ammo, Food. And consider codes for "actions" as well. "Box of crayons = everyone back to base"; What about duress words? For your action codes and dures words, use words that won't be spoken during a normal conversation (giraffe, platypus, etc.). Also have a cipher set-up, so if you know your being listened to/tracked, you can get out simple words in an emergency. A=P, C=G, etc., and give them to the person at your base and your operator.

Oh, and as the saying goes, "We all know at least one 'tacitcal hand signal'" .I.
IIII/

I thought coded radio transmissions were prohibited by the FCC?

[angelofwar]

As for secure comm, unless they have the skill to triangulate your position, which is very hard to do for normal people, try using codes...sure they can hear you, but do they know what the hell you're talking about? We keep small cards of all the code words we use and what they mean...easy to pick up after just a few uses. Consider having code words for: Vehicles, your base, fall-out shelter, BOL, Ammo, Food. And consider codes for "actions" as well. "Box of crayons = everyone back to base"; What about duress words? For your action codes and dures words, use words that won't be spoken during a normal conversation (giraffe, platypus, etc.). Also have a cipher set-up, so if you know your being listened to/tracked, you can get out simple words in an emergency. A=P, C=G, etc., and give them to the person at your base and your operator.

Oh, and as the saying goes, "We all know at least one 'tacitcal hand signal'" .I.
IIII/

I thought coded radio transmissions were prohibited by the FCC?

Honestly Doc, I'm not sure....that being said, the U.S. Military can/does/will use coded comm's until the cows come home. I use them in my job...then there is things like "Air Force One"...and in a true zpaw, would it be illegal? If the FCC still exists, yes, assuming it's illegal to begin with...but aren't "handles" essentially "Coded words"??? Anybody care to chime in?

[Boyscoutdreams]

There are tons of codes, cyphers and substitution lists that are able to be used. But they are also illegal by the FCC rules. Ok, there are a bunch of gray areas. Handles, nick names often fall into this area (10codes) UNLESS it is a recognized system like Morse code, 10code and the abbreviations that were created for Morse code (Q codes). I'm sure there are more but these come to mind quickly.

Don't forget, governmental agencies have different sets of rules they have to go by.
GQ public - Not allowed to use scrambled radios. Police, Fire, Wild Fire Jumpers and military - are all allowed to use scramblers.

Now in a true emergency, would you get caught by anyone who would or could do anything about it? Would things get better soon enough after the emergency for any effective follow up by the government? Who will ever know till after the fact. But don't forget, you wont know till after they are knocking on your door.

I've chosen to follow the rules on these issues simply because by the time things are bad enough to not worry, I don't know how much talking I'd want to do.

Angelofwar - Almost every single ham club plays a game called fox hunt. They practice tracking down weak signals from various types of radios. They make from wire or scrap pieces parts hand held directional antennas. The general designs are also available all over the Internet. Look up Moxon antenna Project for just one type. They don't need to triangulate. They follow the signal right to it's source. And amazingly quickly at that. Yes, these fox hunts are a timed event.

[Tater Raider]

You can transmit in the clear, not use code or encrypt, and still talk in a way that is secure.

Me, to first ex while I'm at sea: We should be back a couple days before _____'s birthday.

Nothing about that violates FCC regs, and you have to know when _____'s birthday is to make sense of it.

Navy takes OPSEC seriously, FCC takes codes seriously, message meets criteria from early 90's at any rate for a Navy guy to call a ham who then calls Ex1 collect and we can chat a bit.

[Boyscoutdreams]

Oh Yes, there are lots of ways around the rules. Just be wise and don't make it sound like a code.... you know,,, Blue one,, this is mobile base 3 time to meet at Alpha. Kinda a give away. Plain language is the key.

[RadioShooter]

The military and other Federal government communications don't come under the FCC. Encryption is prohibited on amatuer radio, GMRS radio, and FRS radio. MURS radio is somewhat confused as to what can be done. However, there is no prohibition on having the equipment to do so, just using it. Public safety radio users can have encryption such as law enforcement groups.

Triangulation of signals is another thing. Most hams fox hunt a stationary fox! A moving fox is a totally different animal as I have attempted to locate some bear hunters that were using a frequency close to our repeater input. It is a lot harder to do.

RS

[Tater Raider]

The military and other Federal government communications don't come under the FCC.

Yes, but the ham that is relaying a personal phone call does.

[North Force]

If you are in a combat situation, the hell with FCC rules.

You need to communicate any way you need to so that the outcome is in your favor.

[Tater Raider]

If you are in a combat situation, the hell with FCC rules.

You need to communicate any way you need to so that the outcome is in your favor.

If you are in a combat situation you need to communicate calmly and clearly or help ain't coming. This means plain language, open transmission, etc. so that the cavalry can come quickly. You also need someone listening on the other end. I suggest 911 on a cell phone - it covers a lot. Also, why are you in a combat situation? Get the hell out of there yesterday!

Police are phasing out monitoring channel 9 on CB, and I cannot think of another radio freq they monitor aside from their own dispatch radios and, unless you are in law enforcement, you have no business transmitting on one.

If you are military and talking combat you need to following training and ask yourself why you are discussing this on an unsecured forum.

Yes the thread got a tad off-topic. They do that. IMO this thread started off-topic because I cannot justify civilians playing soldier under any circumstances - you will get people killed. Defending yourself? Yes! Absolutely! Working in combat groups? Really? Even if it's a ZPAW, and I insist Z-Day will happen, civilians have no business going out and actively seeking combat.


Within the context of arranging meets and what-not though what I said above will work, before or after ZDay. And it has the advantage of maintaining security and being completely legal.

[North Force]

If you are in a combat situation, the hell with FCC rules.

You need to communicate any way you need to so that the outcome is in your favor.

If you are in a combat situation you need to communicate calmly and clearly or help ain't coming. This means plain language, open transmission, etc. so that the cavalry can come quickly. You also need someone listening on the other end. I suggest 911 on a cell phone - it covers a lot. Also, why are you in a combat situation? Get the hell out of there yesterday!

Police are phasing out monitoring channel 9 on CB, and I cannot think of another radio freq they monitor aside from their own dispatch radios and, unless you are in law enforcement, you have no business transmitting on one.

If you are military and talking combat you need to following training and ask yourself why you are discussing this on an unsecured forum.

Yes the thread got a tad off-topic. They do that. IMO this thread started off-topic because I cannot justify civilians playing soldier under any circumstances - you will get people killed. Defending yourself? Yes! Absolutely! Working in combat groups? Really? Even if it's a ZPAW, and I insist Z-Day will happen, civilians have no business going out and actively seeking combat.


Within the context of arranging meets and what-not though what I said above will work, before or after ZDay. And it has the advantage of maintaining security and being completely legal.

Well as for on topic - Every group should have some basic hand signals to use, as well as some 2 way radios. I prefer ham Ht's as you have a much wider freq range and better range than CB's or FRS. The problem with the Speaker Mic's are the Speaker - everyone can hear it. I am looking at the higher end throat mics that have the ear piece speaker. Some of those work with the in-ear hearing protection - like Surefire's.

As for Combat - That can fall under many descriptions.

If you and your family/group are fighting another to keep your home or garden in a SHTF situation - You are in Combat. And if you are using radios to coordinate people and you worry about what the FCC might think, you'll probably lose.

The use of clear communications is correct - Brevity Codes - Clear, Short, Simple.

Cell Phones in a SHTF situation have proven virtually worthless - as everyone has one and tries to use it at once so the system crashes or just gets overloaded. And who says you will even be in range to use it?

Police & CB's - That is the last thing i would rely on. I think you would be very hard pressed to find a police car with a CB in it. Maybe a State Trooper if your lucky.

As for using Police or Other Gov freq's in an Emergency situation - If you have no other means to get help, You CAN use ANY Freq to obtain Help. FCC Rules.

In a Real SHTF, TEOWAWKI, or any other Zombie acronym - Never say Never, cause you really have no idea what may happen. You may or will not always be able to control when and where a "Combat" situation happens.

[Tater Raider]

In a Real SHTF, TEOWAWKI, or any other Zombie acronym - Never say Never, cause you really have no idea what may happen. You may or will not always be able to control when and where a "Combat" situation happens.

Agreed, and short of complete and total societal collapse there will be an accounting at a later date.

Hey, I met ya halfway.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

On combat comms: If you NEED a radio for combat comms, you're doing "combat" wrong. The only reason we use radios in combat nowadays is to coordinate support across distances of several hundred meters between adjacent elements, or call in air support. Learn hand signals, quit with the "to hell with the FCC" and illegal (federal laws, gents) stuff, and sit down and remember that you have a hell of a lot to learn before you start thinking about crypto and coded transmissions. If a squad reinforced (24 Marines+10 ANA, in this case) can attack, repel the enemy, and push to the edge of the AO without using comm gear while spread across a 900m distance, then THAT should be your focus long before you think about some PAW fantasy wherein you and J.W. Rawles team up to fight off the UN invasion.

Just my 2 cents.

[Tater Raider]

On combat comms: If you NEED a radio for combat comms, you're doing "combat" wrong. The only reason we use radios in combat nowadays is to coordinate support across distances of several hundred meters between adjacent elements, or call in air support. Learn hand signals, quit with the "to hell with the FCC" and illegal (federal laws, gents) stuff, and sit down and remember that you have a hell of a lot to learn before you start thinking about crypto and coded transmissions. If a squad reinforced (24 Marines+10 ANA, in this case) can attack, repel the enemy, and push to the edge of the AO without using comm gear while spread across a 900m distance, then THAT should be your focus long before you think about some PAW fantasy wherein you and J.W. Rawles team up to fight off the UN invasion.

Just my 2 cents.

FWIW

Standardized hand signals: Link

Alternative hand signals: Link

[aa1pr]

I foresee an issue as to what band everyone & what exact frequency or frequencies will be used

how do you defeat a radio jammer though, this is used against most enemies now a days

if it ever does come down to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation I think I would monitor and listen before giving away my position and possibly scarificing my supplies & safety

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I foresee an issue as to what band everyone & what exact frequency or frequencies will be used

how do you defeat a radio jammer though, this is used against most enemies now a days

if it ever does come down to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation I think I would monitor and listen before giving away my position and possibly scarificing my supplies & safety

Defeat a jammer? The FCC law prevent you from out-powering any decent jammer, so you figure out where it's coming from and move away from it.

This brings up a good question: any radio gurus wanna tell me what the legality is of building a jammer designed to attack unencrypted civilian bands? Mostly the motorola handy-talkies and the hand-held ham radios.

[majorhavoc]

If you and your family/group are fighting another to keep your home or garden in a SHTF situation - You are in Combat. And if you are using radios to coordinate people and you worry about what the FCC might think, you'll probably lose.

No, you're commiting a crime. I suggest you read the forum rules before you post again, NF.

[North Force]

If you and your family/group are fighting another to keep your home or garden in a SHTF situation - You are in Combat. And if you are using radios to coordinate people and you worry about what the FCC might think, you'll probably lose.

No, you're commiting a crime. I suggest you read the forum rules before you post again, NF.

Well i suggest you go read the Trading With The Enemy Act, War Powers Act, Patriot Act's I & II, Military Commissions Act, NDAA, among others - and then go troll around to see how many of the threads on this forum are considered a Federal Crime. I think you will be busy. and it will help your post count.

If you can't see the truth behind my post in a SHTF "Combat"situation vs. just telling someone to go out and "Commit a Crime", that's your problem.

I would bet you will find somewhere that even bringing up the word combat is a "Crime". Will i also be naughty if i say that many will also swear over the air in a SHTF "Combat" situation? Its the truth and yet a Federal Violation.

Many Will Swear over the air waves in a SHTF "Combat" situation. There.

If that's just too much - the mods know where the ban button is.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Well i suggest you go read the Trading With The Enemy Act, War Powers Act, Patriot Act's I & II, Military Commissions Act, NDAA, among others - and then go troll around to see how many of the threads on this forum are considered a Federal Crime. I think you will be busy. and it will help your post count.

If you can't see the truth behind my post in a SHTF "Combat"situation vs. just telling someone to go out and "Commit a Crime", that's your problem.

I would bet you will find somewhere that even bringing up the word combat is a "Crime". Will i also be naughty if i say that many will also swear over the air in a SHTF "Combat" situation? Its the truth and yet a Federal Violation.

Many Will Swear over the air waves in a SHTF "Combat" situation. There.

If that's just too much - the mods know where the ban button is.

You might look into the truth of NOLA (repercussions of thinking that disasters=WROL) and what combat really is, as well as what combat really is. Since you asked for a ban, I'd suggest you go ahead and set up an accou nt at one of the many websites that do openly advertise and condone Conspiracy (that's a crime in and of itself) so you can cry about how bragging about your intent to break multiple Federal laws was not tolerated on a charity-based disaster prep and recovery forum. Troll less.


Now, back to the topic, and in a manner that doesn't violate those all important Federal laws.

Can someone explain why a radio, especially an encrypted radio that could likely be cracked within a day or two (unless you design crypto, and you think you're better than an organized military) for "combat" communications? I mean, legitimately, I have never needed a radio unless it was to call in reports (only needed in an organized, supplied military with air support and adjacent units to worry about) to call in air support (see above) or when we had multiple adjacent units that were within gunshot-range but not necessarily coordinating (again, really only a problem for organized military.) Most of my combat experience was spent talking as little on the radio as possible.

[Tater Raider]

I need, in a PAW, a way to set up meets with various folk and coordinating who brings what to the party when meeting for trade purposes. Radio is the answer to that and speaking to each other in terms we both understand ("Remember that courthouse Ma pointed out to us? Yeah, how 'bout we meet about 10 east of there around lunchtime 2 weeks before her birthday. That work for you?") an not in code satisfies any and all rules on this pre-PAW.

Since what we practice pre-PAW is what we will be comfortable with, that's what we will use after Z-Day.

Combat? I live alone. Pre-PAW I call 911 then toss the phone somewhere out of the way because I'm going to have my hands full and they can trace it. After Z-Day I'm on my own. If I'm not on my own (folk used my place for a BOL comes to mind) and we have to go out for _____ then there will be 2 groups, them that stay and them that go. 1 radio with each group so the away team can call the home team and go, "HELP!!!" is all we need.

Why? Because before anyone goes anywhere they are going let me know who is going, what they are going for, where they are going, when they are expecting to return, why they need to go, and how they intend to conduct themselves. "HELP!!!" is all the home crew needs to hear to be able to head for them, and details on what's going on can be worked out en route. Reaction time is everything.

To coordinate 2 fighting groups? Do you seriously think you can provide for that many people 5 years after Z-Day? I mean TP is gone, coffee is gone, smokes are wishful thinking, pharmacutical companies are long gone, Jersey Shore is cancelled, and so on. You have to provide every need for every individual first, figure out how to avoid, "I ain't know nothin' 'bout birthin' no babies," home remedies, what works and what doesn't, how to replace that rusted out hulk that used to be your dream BOV, what to do about that fish hook Billy got stuck through his cheek, and not the one on his head, adn so on.

Coms within the group? I posted the links to hand signals. "Shut the fuck up before you get us all killed!" would be the the only verbal coms needed before the furball starts and afterwords everyone is going to be yelling and confused - and that's if they are trained pros! Armchair quarterbacks like you and I with maturbatory fantasies about becoming warlords in the Mad Max world that we suddenly find ourselves in? Phft! Please... We don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of living a long life if we go looking for trouble.

Sorry if you don't like the answer, but there is my honest opinion of these topics and people who think laws quit exsisting just because society breaks down for a while. I have no use for those folk at my BIL/BOL - I have enough issues that can get people killed without adding to the problem.

Yeah... tact ain't my strong suit.

[CitizenZ]

Once again this forum descends into "lets plan to break federal law if given an excuse." For some reason this is tolerated when it comes to radio. I don't know why.

[CitizenZ]

I foresee an issue as to what band everyone & what exact frequency or frequencies will be used

how do you defeat a radio jammer though, this is used against most enemies now a days

if it ever does come down to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation I think I would monitor and listen before giving away my position and possibly scarificing my supplies & safety

Defeat a jammer? The FCC law prevent you from out-powering any decent jammer, so you figure out where it's coming from and move away from it.

This brings up a good question: any radio gurus wanna tell me what the legality is of building a jammer designed to attack unencrypted civilian bands? Mostly the motorola handy-talkies and the hand-held ham radios.

Building it? Legal. Turning it on to test it... illegal = felony.

The best, and only legal methods, of defeating jamming is by changing bands (they can't jam everything) and by using directional antenna and line of sight systems like light emitters, lasers, x-rays, etc.

[TacAir]

Well i suggest you go read the Trading With The Enemy Act, War Powers Act, Patriot Act's I & II, Military Commissions Act, NDAA, among others - and then go troll around to see how many of the threads on this forum are considered a Federal Crime. I think you will be busy. and it will help your post count.

If you can't see the truth behind my post in a SHTF "Combat"situation vs. just telling someone to go out and "Commit a Crime", that's your problem.

I would bet you will find somewhere that even bringing up the word combat is a "Crime". Will i also be naughty if i say that many will also swear over the air in a SHTF "Combat" situation? Its the truth and yet a Federal Violation.

Many Will Swear over the air waves in a SHTF "Combat" situation. There.

If that's just too much - the mods know where the ban button is.

You might look into the truth of NOLA (repercussions of thinking that disasters=WROL) and what combat really is, as well as what combat really is. Since you asked for a ban, I'd suggest you go ahead and set up an accou nt at one of the many websites that do openly advertise and condone Conspiracy (that's a crime in and of itself) so you can cry about how bragging about your intent to break multiple Federal laws was not tolerated on a charity-based disaster prep and recovery forum. Troll less.


Now, back to the topic, and in a manner that doesn't violate those all important Federal laws.

Can someone explain why a radio, especially an encrypted radio that could likely be cracked within a day or two (unless you design crypto, and you think you're better than an organized military) for "combat" communications? I mean, legitimately, I have never needed a radio unless it was to call in reports (only needed in an organized, supplied military with air support and adjacent units to worry about) to call in air support (see above) or when we had multiple adjacent units that were within gunshot-range but not necessarily coordinating (again, really only a problem for organized military.) Most of my combat experience was spent talking as little on the radio as possible.

I'm a bit late to the thread, and found it humorous.
ANY RF emitter on a modern battle will be found, fixed and destroyed in sort order.
Encrypt all you want, unless you you use DSSS radios, "they" will have you nailed in under a minute.

I once had an interesting job with one of those funny military outfits. Had a kid on base tell me that his new DES would keep from finding him. Told find someplace comfortable and TX for a few seconds every few minutes.
I drove up to him in less that 5 minutes.
If you transmit, you will be found.

As noted by others, even hams have very good DF/foxhuntingskills. Working as a team, they can follow moving transmitters.

Plan as you wish. and best of luck.

[raptor]

If you and your family/group are fighting another to keep your home or garden in a SHTF situation - You are in Combat. And if you are using radios to coordinate people and you worry about what the FCC might think, you'll probably lose.

No, you're commiting a crime. I suggest you read the forum rules before you post again, NF.

Well i suggest you go read the Trading With The Enemy Act, War Powers Act, Patriot Act's I & II, Military Commissions Act, NDAA, among others - and then go troll around to see how many of the threads on this forum are considered a Federal Crime. I think you will be busy. and it will help your post count.

If you can't see the truth behind my post in a SHTF "Combat"situation vs. just telling someone to go out and "Commit a Crime", that's your problem.

I would bet you will find somewhere that even bringing up the word combat is a "Crime". Will i also be naughty if i say that many will also swear over the air in a SHTF "Combat" situation? Its the truth and yet a Federal Violation.

Many Will Swear over the air waves in a SHTF "Combat" situation. There.

If that's just too much - the mods know where the ban button is.

Please read the rules before you post again. We do not condone discussion of illegal activities on this forum.