Best all around livestock animal?

[Manoos]

I grew up part of my life in Chile where the Araucana chickens originated, they do well with eggs, what most farmers did was have a sort of largish fenced shed or two on sleds they could move around where the chickens could free range and that avoided the problem with chasing them down.

I always felt one would need self sufficient animals, I do recall a neighbor in Chile trying his hand with vietnamese geese and pigs (similar to pot bellies but not so much fat), sheep are the lemmings of the farm animals, my vote would be for goats as well.

[billyism]

Guinea Fowl kill snakes and you can let them run wild on your BOL
Also fish in a barrel is an option

Here in Texas, if you have the right piece of property, wild pigs aren't a problem to find. There is unrestricted year round hunting and it's not even making a dent in the numbers. I live in N DFW and there are bands of wild pigs roaming some of the richest neighborhoods - yes in the city. The rich people get all ticked off because those things will tear up your yard in about 15 minutes. They set up a pen trap at work and caught 15 of em in one night, then shipped them to the Red River. Nevermind that they could have fed dozens of homeless people. That was 6 months ago and there's already another brood running around of about 8... in 3 more months that brood if left unchecked will be 12 or more. And the Coyotes are here too and look more like wolves because they're so well fed.

[Collie of Doom]

Miniature sheep. All the pluses of the goat, plus you can shear them, card and spin the wool, and you have yarn. From which you can make clothes. I know how to knit. Now I just need to learn husbandry, carding, and spinning. . .

What breeds do you mean? My sheep aren't so miniature being Texel and Rouge de L'Ouest
This years first lambs are due anytime now, cannot wait.

Oh, there's several different breeds. They're a little more than half the size of normal sheep, near as I can tell. Which means less feed and square acreage to support them. http://www.minilivestock.com/miniaturesheep.html

So you have sheep? Our neighbors at one place I lived as a kid had some. My brother and I got to do 4H with a couple lambs each one summer. That was cool.

[Collie of Doom]

Guinea Fowl kill snakes and you can let them run wild on your BOL
Also fish in a barrel is an option

Here in Texas, if you have the right piece of property, wild pigs aren't a problem to find. There is unrestricted year round hunting and it's not even making a dent in the numbers. I live in N DFW and there are bands of wild pigs roaming some of the richest neighborhoods - yes in the city. The rich people get all ticked off because those things will tear up your yard in about 15 minutes. They set up a pen trap at work and caught 15 of em in one night, then shipped them to the Red River. Nevermind that they could have fed dozens of homeless people. That was 6 months ago and there's already another brood running around of about 8... in 3 more months that brood if left unchecked will be 12 or more. And the Coyotes are here too and look more like wolves because they're so well fed.

Our same neighbors who had sheep had Guinea Hens. They are great at keeping down ticks. However, they are not so bright. They'd just stand in the middle of the road and squawk rather than move out of the way of oncoming traffic. They didn't have very long life expectancies. It was hilarious watching them sort themselves out when they wanted to cross a fence as a flock. (They can fly a little for very short distances.) Just when nearly all of them got over the fence, one would cross back to the other side, then several more would follow, so they'd have to start over again. The best part? The fence ended not 20 feet further down.

[wee drop o' bush]

Collie of Doom, I clicked that link
Very interesting too. I assume that mini sheep are not bred for eating like mine are?

[KnightoftheRoc]

Upon further consideration, I've shifted my livestock plans a bit. Still going with goats for the meat and milk/cheese aspect, but considering a breed that I can get fiber from, maybe. I'm also thinking a few sheep, for all the same reasons. Combined with chickens and rabbits (and maybe some fish on the property), I think I have my protein sources covered pretty well. However, I'm now thinking that adding a pig is still a good idea- at least until they invent a bacon tree, and I'm considering a dairy cow or two, because (to my limited knowledge) you can't get butter from goat milk

If anyone can disabuse me of this, feel free, because tending to 2 tons of stupid everyday just to get some butter out of the deal doesn't strike me as the ideal solution. I'll be buying my butter for a good amount of time, I'm sure, but as close to complete self sufficiency IS still the goal here, while giving up as little of the modern world as possible. Having dairy cows would mean processing three instead of two forms of milk into cheese, with the addition of cream and butter, and there's only so much time in a day, after all.

[Ad'lan]

, and I'm considering a dairy cow or two, because (to my limited knowledge) you can't get butter from goat milk

If anyone can disabuse me of this, feel free, because tending to 2 tons of stupid everyday just to get some butter out of the deal doesn't strike me as the ideal solution. I'll be buying my butter for a good amount of time, I'm sure, but as close to complete self sufficiency IS still the goal here, while giving up as little of the modern world as possible. Having dairy cows would mean processing three instead of two forms of milk into cheese, with the addition of cream and butter, and there's only so much time in a day, after all.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/1975-05-01/How-To-Make-Butter-From-Goatmilk.aspx

It can be done. If you were going to get cattle, I'd recommend a dual purpose breed, for a small holder, over specialisation means a lot of work.

[Manoos]

, and I'm considering a dairy cow or two, because (to my limited knowledge) you can't get butter from goat milk

If anyone can disabuse me of this, feel free, because tending to 2 tons of stupid everyday just to get some butter out of the deal doesn't strike me as the ideal solution. I'll be buying my butter for a good amount of time, I'm sure, but as close to complete self sufficiency IS still the goal here, while giving up as little of the modern world as possible. Having dairy cows would mean processing three instead of two forms of milk into cheese, with the addition of cream and butter, and there's only so much time in a day, after all.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/1975-05-01/How-To-Make-Butter-From-Goatmilk.aspx

It can be done. If you were going to get cattle, I'd recommend a dual purpose breed, for a small holder, over specialisation means a lot of work.

Couldn't agree more. I know there are some breeds of goat that have higher fat content in their milk. Anglo-Nubians are a breed a neighbor used to have. He made white butter which was a bit weird but hey it tasted good, I am also a big fan of goat and sheep cheese. Cows are just filthy animals (personal opinion here after working in a slaughter house and dairy farm).

[KYZHunters]

KotR, getting a cow just for butter is a little over the top unless you want to keep a calf on it all of the time and just milk it as needed. The twice a day every day milking routine, whether its one cow or fifty, is tough. Some breeds are better mommas and take more readily to letting an orphan suck. There are always orphans and dairy farm castoffs available, at least around here.
On the pigs, hell yeah. I'd start by just buying two weaned piglets a year for a few years until you decide that you want the year-round feeding bill for a boar and sows. We did it for a few years and the numbers don't work and our sows are now in the freezer.
The last thing I'll say is that self-sufficiency does not mean total isolation. We have a local dairy farmer who happily trades fresh milk for finished cheese and butter and other products. He even insists that we take our share off the top of his storage tank...it's mostly cream.

[ZombieGranny]

Cream separator listings (manual & electric) at ecrater...
http://www.ecrater.com/p/6529372/centri ... tor-manual

[flsgear]

That's thing he used was called a chicken tractor. There are plenty of DIY plans on the internet, including some 'stealth' varieties that might suit the more urban of us.

There are many specific breeds of chickens that are egg layers. Others are excellent meat chickens. I have a combination of both. One important thing to note is you don't require a rooster to lay eggs. Hens lay eggs with or without one. It's pretty well idiotproof.

Advantages:
1) Low cost to own. Chickens are dirt cheap, cost next to nothing to feed (I pay 20 dollars every 3 months for 7 birds and mine are stabled, not 'free range' due to local township restrictions - they'd cost less if they could eat out side.).

2) Good egg production/life span. If you turn a chicken into a pure egg layer they will still last a few years. I've had mine for 4 and you can tell they're getting old. But they still lay and if needbe will remain as a 'backup food supply'.

3) extremely rapid "meat chicken" growth. A meat chicken takes around 6 weeks from hatchling to 'table ready'. Compare that against most pigs/cows/sheep, etc and you can see that even with other animals around you'd be a fool not to have chickens. Coupled with their egg production at 3-4 months, you have a powerful food source.

4) Extremely rich manure. Some of the best fertilizer in the world is chicken poop - it's brown gold!

5) Low water consumption. 7 birds = 1.5 gallons of water every 2 days, if you keep the water clean.

6) Easy to train, easy to learn. Low learning curve.

[Collie of Doom]

Collie of Doom, I clicked that link
Very interesting too. I assume that mini sheep are not bred for eating like mine are?

I don't see why you couldn't eat them, in general. But naturally some breeds are aimed more wool production and others more for eating, I'd assume it's the same for mini sheep. You're making me hungry... lol

[KnightoftheRoc]

KotR, getting a cow just for butter is a little over the top unless you want to keep a calf on it all of the time and just milk it as needed. The twice a day every day milking routine, whether its one cow or fifty, is tough. Some breeds are better mommas and take more readily to letting an orphan suck. There are always orphans and dairy farm castoffs available, at least around here.
On the pigs, hell yeah. I'd start by just buying two weaned piglets a year for a few years until you decide that you want the year-round feeding bill for a boar and sows. We did it for a few years and the numbers don't work and our sows are now in the freezer.
The last thing I'll say is that self-sufficiency does not mean total isolation. We have a local dairy farmer who happily trades fresh milk for finished cheese and butter and other products. He even insists that we take our share off the top of his storage tank...it's mostly cream.

I couldn't agree more- and thanks, Adlan, for pointing out it CAN be done with goats. I thought that the fat in the milk was just one part of the 'equation', and that the lactose was another. Since goat milk is lactose free (or so my carton label says), I had assumed that butter was one thing I wouldn't be able to make from goat milk. I do like my steak, but amount of meat and milk versus the amount of time and effort, a cow (even just one) seemed a bit much. I'm still getting a pig tho, because there IS no substitute for bacon!
And yes, I know that self sufficiency is not the same as isolation, but I'm trying to cover as much as I can on my own. There are plenty of other goat raisers and dairy farms in the area that I can swap critters for breeding, and crops for other stuff, but the less I need to do that, the better.

[DirtHawker]

I vote for reindeer. No, think about it, meat, pelt, you can milk them, they shed antlers every year, and they can even be trained to haul a sleigh. And they can now be fed hay and commercial pellet rations, so they shouldn’t be much harder to keep then horses. And, unlike most deer you can farm, their domesticated stocky build and shorter legs make it so they don’t require the massive high fences of raising whitetails or similar species.

Ok, seriously, you should probably only consider reindeer if your in Alaska, Canada, or another northern state, if at all. I rather doubt that you could keep them without commercial rations on what grows locally, plus they aren’t legal to keep in certain areas.

Really, my vote for after then shtf goes to keeping rabbits in “Morant hutches”. It’s the same thing as a chicken tractor, but for rabbits. Heck, I even know a few people who keep rabbits and chickens together in one. They just separate the does and litters from the chickens to prevent the babies getting pecked.

[ineffableone]

I vote for reindeer. No, think about it, meat, pelt, you can milk them, they shed antlers every year, and they can even be trained to haul a sleigh. And they can now be fed hay and commercial pellet rations, so they shouldn’t be much harder to keep then horses. And, unlike most deer you can farm, their domesticated stocky build and shorter legs make it so they don’t require the massive high fences of raising whitetails or similar species.

Ok, seriously, you should probably only consider reindeer if your in Alaska, Canada, or another northern state, if at all. I rather doubt that you could keep them without commercial rations on what grows locally, plus they aren’t legal to keep in certain areas.

Reindeer is an interesting idea for those in a region that it could work, nice thinking outside the box.

[DirtHawker]

Well, if out of the box is desired, here’s a couple more.

Camels. You get meat, hides, milk, pack animals and transportation in one drought resistant package. And, since at one point, the U.S did have wild camels (now extinct), they might even be able to live on the available vegetation in certain areas. However, they do not like cold weather to much, so unlike caribou, I wouldn’t try keeping them in Alaska. California or Nevada maybe.

Llama’s. You get meat, hides, wool, livestock guardians, and pack animals from these cousins of the camels. Being mountain animals, they are also better at dealing with the cold, though they do not have the camels drought resistance. They also can adopt a flock of other, more defenseless animals, like sheep, as their own herd, and will sound the alarm by screaming at approaching predators. These probably can be kept over much of the united states, especially if you already plan on making hay for other livestock over the winter.

Ostriches. You get, meat, eggs, feathers, leather, oil, and, if you want to have the most unique form of transportation in the PAW, you can even train them to be ridden or pull a cart. Eggshells are strong enough for bowls and cups. However, as useful as it could be, there are downsides. For one, its not a true grazer, it eats a lot of grains, insects, and small lizards, which can help keep pests down, but could make proper diet more difficult. Also, they are known to be rather irritable and unpredictable, and one kick in the right place can kill a man. Also, it’s not cold tolerant, so its uses are probably restricted to southern states, especially those with a more African climate.

Emu. The Ostriches smaller Australian cousin. Most of what applies to the ostrich applies here. You get eggs, meat, feather, oil, and leather. But they are to small to be ridden or pull a cart. The eggshells are smaller, but still usable. More cold tolerant then the ostrich, I’ve even seen them raised in up here with proper shelter. The same problems the ostrich has apply here to, they can be irritable, and they can kill a man.

So there’s what I can think of in the exotic farm trade that might have use when SHTF. However, I don’t recommend any of these animals for the beginner. They might do well in the right climate, they might not, it’s a risk. Most farming of such stock is done with a lot of pre-packaged feed and special care. But if you think you could manage such a farm, at least now you know some options.

• A note on domestic farm animals. No matter what species you choose, cow, sheep, ect, I highly recommend choosing a heritage breed. Why? Many modern breeds have been highly specialized. They can do one thing very well, but not many thing well. Plus some have serious breed specific health and breeding issues. Also, heritage breeds have fewer health problems, live longer, and, since many were in use when a farm had to be closer to self sufficient, are adapted to be used in many tasks.

[taonindo]

turkeys would be my choice...good meat, eggs are a nice size (ours lays 2 eggs a day) and like chickens they live off the land (bugs, worms and such). i dont like goat meat or the milk but i have had it a lot, it will make a turd.

[wee drop o' bush]

Well, if out of the box is desired, here’s a couple more.
Llama’s. You get meat, hides, wool, livestock guardians, and pack animals from these cousins of the camels. Being mountain animals, they are also better at dealing with the cold, though they do not have the camels drought resistance. They also can adopt a flock of other, more defenseless animals, like sheep, as their own herd, and will sound the alarm by screaming at approaching predators. These probably can be kept over much of the united states, especially if you already plan on making hay for other livestock over the winter.

I agree, Llamas are kept by several fellow sheep breeders we know. Primarily for protection of their sheep and secondarily for the Llama's fleece.

• A note on domestic farm animals. No matter what species you choose, cow, sheep, ect, I highly recommend choosing a heritage breed. Why? Many modern breeds have been highly specialized. They can do one thing very well, but not many thing well. Plus some have serious breed specific health and breeding issues. Also, heritage breeds have fewer health problems, live longer, and, since many were in use when a farm had to be closer to self sufficient, are adapted to be used in many tasks.

Everything you've said here is correct. The downside is heritage breeds are not as commercially viable as modern breeds, such as the Texel that I farm.
Farming is a business too.
There just isn't enough of a market for heritage breeds to make a living out of them. If there was there would be many more of them kept.
I would keep them, I love them!

For self sufficiency Heritage Breeds such as the Shetland, Manx Loaghtan & Norfolk Horn do have many pros. Certainly for people unused to sheep care they're ideal.

The decision that has to be made before you buy farm animals is do you want to keep livestock for self-sufficiency or do you want to farm commercially.

[Perkidanman]

Upon further consideration, I've shifted my livestock plans a bit. Still going with goats for the meat and milk/cheese aspect, but considering a breed that I can get fiber from, maybe.

If you go with a Pygora Goat you can get meat, milk/cheese and fibers! They're what I'm planning on getting, plus they're small so less feed.

[lolinski]

Sheep would be my first choice while chickens would be my second choice. The reason for this is 1 sheep can give you about 20-40 kilos of food and they can be milked and shorn(which means sheep=meat,milk/cheese and cloting)

And whoever says sheep cant be milked has obviously never milked a sheep(it isnt uncommon in my homeland : Bosnia)

[KYZHunters]

And yes, I know that self sufficiency is not the same as isolation, but I'm trying to cover as much as I can on my own. There are plenty of other goat raisers and dairy farms in the area that I can swap critters for breeding, and crops for other stuff, but the less I need to do that, the better.

KotR, my apologies. I didn't mean to come off as preaching about self-sufficiency not meaning isolation. I was actually trying to stave off the inevitable, "So, where are you going to get toilet paper, huh?" comments that inevitably surface.

Re: your decision to keep pigs. Pigs have a fantastic feed-to-body mass conversion ratio, and are therefore incredibly economical as well as being tasty. I am always awed to see a piglet you can hold in your hand at birth go to over 200 pounds in six months. If you get a breed like Devons that forage well while doing little damage you can really cut into your feed cost. It might be my imagination, but I think they are more flavorful.
Another bonus with pigs is lard. Most of us don't cook with lard, but it can replace a lot of the oils and butters used in cooking and is very helpful in preserving meats ala confits.

Best of luck.

[KnightoftheRoc]

And yes, I know that self sufficiency is not the same as isolation, but I'm trying to cover as much as I can on my own. There are plenty of other goat raisers and dairy farms in the area that I can swap critters for breeding, and crops for other stuff, but the less I need to do that, the better.

KotR, my apologies. I didn't mean to come off as preaching about self-sufficiency not meaning isolation. I was actually trying to stave off the inevitable, "So, where are you going to get toilet paper, huh?" comments that inevitably surface.

Re: your decision to keep pigs. Pigs have a fantastic feed-to-body mass conversion ratio, and are therefore incredibly economical as well as being tasty. I am always awed to see a piglet you can hold in your hand at birth go to over 200 pounds in six months. If you get a breed like Devons that forage well while doing little damage you can really cut into your feed cost. It might be my imagination, but I think they are more flavorful.
Another bonus with pigs is lard. Most of us don't cook with lard, but it can replace a lot of the oils and butters used in cooking and is very helpful in preserving meats ala confits.

Best of luck.

No offense was taken- it's cool. I got your point, and was trying to expand on it. I usually use the "sooner or later, someone's gonna need new sneakers, and I can't grow rubber trees in NYS" example. There's plenty of things that, while I MIGHT be able to manage producing, it would make drastic impacts on my efforts on other things. How time consuming would producing a year's supply of toilet paper be? What other tasks will have to go un-done while I do that? Having spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff, I find that time management will be a major factor in getting ANYTHING done. There's the daily tasks, like feeding and watering the livestock, watering and weeding the garden, and just keeping up on housework that all require time. While somewhat seasonal, there's butchering to do, planting, harvesting as crops are ready- something that can't be put off till it's convenient- plus all the regular maintenance and repair tasks that come up.

Most tasks like repairs and making "things" can be done indoors, unless it's fencing or putting up a building, so bad weather doesn't need to completely de-rail plans to get things done. I'm figuring on getting the daily tasks out of the way first, then deciding which other tasks need doing that day. Once the feed, water, and milking/eggs stuff is done, I'd have most of the day to devote to other tasks while the critters spend that time feeding themselves, or whatever. Crops need little attention from a time frame perspective, since watering does not need too much time- with an irrigation system, it could be set up on a timer. The big time eaters there are weeding, planting, and harvest- that's all labor intensive, time consuming, attention to detail stuff- fortunately, it doesn't come up every day.

The entire labor intensive aspect is one reason I'm looking at goats, instead of cows or a large herd of sheep. Being browsers, the goats will actually be helping me clear land, eating what I don't want there, while fertilizing the soil at the same time. cows don't browse, they graze, and the place I'm looking at isn't open enough right now to have a pasture. I'm thinking of adding a few sheep later on, mostly for the extra meat and the wool. A couple of pigs would also be for later on. My plan is to start small with goats, chicken, and rabbits, allowing each breed to grow in number till I see I've hit the limit that I can handle. Once the populations have "topped out", I should be producing enough of each that I'll have salable, or barter goods, which can be turned into cash, trade, or simply cover the annual taxes.

I want to diversify my livestock enough that my diet doesn't become boring or unhealthy, yet still produce a surplus. I'm not looking at becoming a commercial farmer, but I do want to be able to gain an income of some kind from the farm's efforts if possible, and to help out a few places that feed hungry people. fortunately, there are people in my area that raise all of the animals I'm interested in having, that I can talk to and learn from, swap animals with to protect genetic lines, etc.

[ZombieGranny]

A few points I'm not sure I've seen regarding chickens...

If you want to eat them, make sure you have a dozen or more.
With that many it's difficult to make them all pets, they're just collectively 'the ladies'. You will hardly notice one less black chicken scratching around.

There will be a favorite no one will want to eat, they dig, and even if you have no rooster there will be an alarm chicken.
You may want to eat her because she is loud.
If you do, keep in mind someone else will take over the alarm hen's job within a week or so.

[KnightoftheRoc]

A few points I'm not sure I've seen regarding chickens...

If you want to eat them, make sure you have a dozen or more.
With that many it's difficult to make them all pets, they're just collectively 'the ladies'. You will hardly notice one less black chicken scratching around.

There will be a favorite no one will want to eat, they dig, and even if you have no rooster there will be an alarm chicken.
You may want to eat her because she is loud.
If you do, keep in mind someone else will take over the alarm hen's job within a week or so.

So, that just makes the selection process for Sunday's dinner that much easier, now doesn't it?

Does this mean I'll need 52 hens to last a year?