Arming a group?

[bradwurst]

I've noticed the idea of arming a group has been mentioned in few of the item specific threads, but I haven't found any that disuss it directly, so here it goes...
Like the subject says, what would you use to arm a group? Some of us have groups of friends/family/acquaintenences/etc...who may be in our survival plans, but not have their own firearms or any weapon for that matter. Assuming that you don't have enough firearms or melee weapons of your own to go around, how might you arm your group?
How would your choice change depending on the number of people you had to arm?
How would your choice change depending on the type of situation? (ie: Zombies vs Raider Defence vs Hunting and Gathering) How about Bug-out vs. Bug-in?

I'm thinking it would need to be something simple to make, can be improvised out of a variety of materials and intuitive to use. If the situation where zombies or bunkering in a building, I'd lean towards batons. Like the old wooden police ones, not the fancy new ASP-style ones. In the woods, or if defense against live threats was a priority, then a spear might be a good choice.

What would you chose?

[JRod]

SKS for the win!



Seriously. For a $1000 you could get 4, nearly 1000 rounds of ammo for each, and some extra stripper clips. Buy a decent AK for yourself so you can use the same ammunition and you're good to go.

[Shotzee]

we have 3 440c steel hatchets
and a garage full of axes, hammers, chainsaws, pikes crowbars, bars and big peices of metal in general

but if we didnt, hmmmm
bug in, for as long as we can, but make sure we have a good escape route, rooms are seperated by drywall, not impossble to tear through with your hands, and in attics you can lay down plywood, and if you have to get down but the main entrance has stenchers below, breaking through the ceiling into anyroom is also very easy.

in both cases make sure you dont hit a stud

bugging out id make sure to have like 1-2 guys 50ft ahead as scouts
dont arm women with bats and axes if able men are present (sorry just a higher muscle ratio, simple biology)
and theres always melee weapons
your shoe is better then nothing!

[Ironsides]

SKS is great for being so cheap you can get 10 for under 1k

[ais]

GP-WASR 10s, SAR-1s and SAR-2s, SKSs, etc.

I have enough various pistols to pass our appropriatly.

[jor-el]

12 Moisin-Nagant 91/30 rifles. One case each of 880 rounds Hungarian Heavy Ball. Use "Enemy at the Gates" strategy. One man with the rifle and ammo. Two men to back him up with melee weapons, and carrying extra ammo. If the rifleman falls, one of the backups goes for the rifle, the other tries to retrieve the wounded rifleman, or backs up the new rifleman. Those are for the lightly skilled. AKs or FALs for the proven.

[Vampire]

And what would you do if we combine this scenario with one of the others: You have several trained riflemen (or women ) who have a rifle and a backup and several untrained people. Would you try to spraid the firearms? Or would you give the untrained people improvised melee weapons? How about making bow and arrow? Would it's range be a benefit over melee weapons? Would you use them if there are very little firearms or if you run out of ammo?

[ais]

And what would you do if we combine this scenario with one of the others: You have several trained riflemen (or women ) who have a rifle and a backup and several untrained people. Would you try to spraid the firearms? Or would you give the untrained people improvised melee weapons? How about making bow and arrow? Would it's range be a benefit over melee weapons? Would you use them if there are very little firearms or if you run out of ammo?

Getting someone proficient with firearms is not a hard task. Within a few days, i believe you could have them reliably popping headshots at upwards of 50 yards with any specific rifle.

[bradwurst]

Ok, good stuff so far, but lets say you couldn't or didn't want to spend $1000 on guns for other people, or that you did and now you have 4 or 5 extra rifles that you've already distributed to the good shooters in your group, but there are still more people?
Example: the SHTF and you meet up with your family and a few close friend. But wait, those friends probably won't abandon their families, etc...it just kinda snowballs from there. Or maybe you meet up with another group you feel you can trust along the way. I mean, spending $1000 might give you enough rifles to arm a half dozen people if you shop well, but what if you found yourself with 50 people? What about 100? (I know some of you wouldn't let your group get that big, but hey, humour me)

jor-el:
I had the same idea about the WWII russian army tactic of one gun for two men. I think it would be a good idea in a full out battle against raiders, but not as good against zombies. I mean, when the one with the rifle gets killed (ie: overrun by zombies) the one without probably isn't going in there to get the rifle.
I still like the idea though just so I can give the same speech they gave as they were handing out rifles! Man that movie was awsome!

Vampire:
As for Bows and Arrows, not a bad idea. Especially if you had quite a few archers and the time to actually work on the skills to use a bow reasonably well. Once again though, seems like it would be better against raider than zombies. I mean, I'm sure not good enough with a bow to make a head shot to take out a zombie, but volley fire might be disuading enough to raiders to get them to look for an easier target (especially if the arrow volleys are accompanied by rifle fire).

So basically, buying cheap surplus rifles might be good for a small group, but lets see what else we can come up with... I mean, if I had just wanted to talk guns, I would have posted this in the firearms section.

-b[/i]

[thorian]

for a while mosin nagant rifles were going 5 for 100 in servicable condtion over on gunbroker.com and 990 rounds of Czech training ammo is about $60 at militarygunsupply.com so 200 you get 5 riflemen. I would say that you arm the best shots in a large group. I have My SKS and My M44 I would probally only use the M44 as I like the action and if aiming properly I am just as fast as the sks. Ill pass the SKS off to someone else that isnt as dexterous with a bolt like my wife. who then may pass off her Bolt Rifle off to someone else we trust. like our Bud mike that is a good shot but shoots BP who may load and pass off the BP to our other friends wife as a last ditch weapon (Cause he has a enfield) anyone else gets a Sledge hammer or other blunt mele weapon. All the rifles have bayonets. Except the BP and it is os a long club after its shot.

[Valarius]

Find some rocks, pass them around.

Also, some pawn stores carry various pump shotguns for 100 each. I could buy some and spread those around.

[JRod]

I bet you could find some ideas for expedient PAW melee weapons by analyzing past riots. I just want $1000 worth of surplus rifles and ammo stored away somewhere.

[mr. right-wing]

Edited

[Unorthodox]

Uhh...I'm not quite sure of the legality of what you just said.

Infact, I believe I didn't see anything

[Rus]

Uhh...I'm not quite sure of the legality of what you just said.

Infact, I believe I didn't see anything

+1

[mr. right-wing]

huh, wadid I say..I didnt say anything .

[Vampire]

I bet you could find some ideas for expedient PAW melee weapons by analyzing past riots. I just want $1000 worth of surplus rifles and ammo stored away somewhere.

In Palestinian riots people still use slingshots, some rope with somehing that holds a stone at the end actually makes a nice weapon. Trained Romans hit people on the head with it over a hundred meters (but then again, the battlefield usually was pretty crowded...).

[AEnemia]

Edited by Admin

Even though you're completely right (except for the fact there's some bows out there that are more expensive than guns, once you get into compounds), and tec arrows DO kick ass, they aren't really all that legal.

Flaming arrows, however...

[bradwurst]

Daaaaaaaaamn...! Mosins were going for 5 for $100!? Sigh...the best I've been able to find north of the border here have been $150~175 each. If they were that cheap I'd totally stock up on a bunch of them. Of course, the cost of registering them here would probably cost more than the rifles themselves, but........

As for bows, AEnemia raises a good point. Good bows are uber-expensive. There are also really cheap bows out there that are probably crap. So how much would you need to spend to get a useable quality bow? Or, for that matter, anyone ever tried their hand at making a bow and arrows? It looks pretty simple, but I bet it's probably really difficult to do well. Hmmmm...I need to find me a stave of wood to start working on!


-b

[mr. right-wing]

True, bows are expensive. I own a couple. HOWEVER, you can always find the cheap Chinese knockoffs for a good price.

[Jeriah]

Edited by Admin

Even though you're completely right (except for the fact there's some bows out there that are more expensive than guns, once you get into compounds), and tec arrows DO kick ass, they aren't really all that legal.

Flaming arrows, however...

Flaming arrows are really hard to make right. Nothing seems to stay lit: gasoline, diesel, motor oil: they all burn fine til you release, then they go out. Never did solve that one: maybe a gel fuel, or pine pitch?

[jamoni]

Mr. Rightwing, please check your PMs. Thanks.

[Jeriah]

Oh yeah, right. The topic.

It depends how many people you plan on being able to arm. Currently, my plan would be to arm a team all with different weapons, but with some intentionality as to ammo commonality. I'm envisioning two three-man teams.

Team 1: Assault Group
1. Maadi MISR
2. Norinco MAK-90
3. SKS

Team 2: Tactical Group
1. FA-91 (G3 clone)
2. Bushmaster XM-15E2S, SIG P226 9mm (this would be me)
3. Remington 870 shotgun

The assault group has no-bullshit semi-auto rifles; they can share ammo, and function as standard infantry. The Tactical group would be more specialized, better for urban environments. The two riflemen could act as snipers, with the shotgunner providing security. This plan is based soley on handing out the guns I already happen to own.

If you're considering putting together an arsenal to arm a group of friends, I suggest the following, in descending order:

1. Ideally, go with the SKS: About $100 apiece if you shop around, cheap ammo, no mags to buy, and it's a kick ass gun as well. As has been said, ten will cost you less than $1K.

2. Ishapore (India) .308 Enfield. I've seen them for as low as $50 apiece. Ammo is also widely available and cheap surplus is available. Ten for $500? Not bad.

3. Mosin-Nagant: sturdy guns, and cheap, as low as $50 apiece if you catch 'em on sale. Ammo is harder to find than either of the above, and it tends to be expensive and corrosive. Also, I prefer some features of the Enfield (long-range sight, spring-loaded bolt, a safety that actually works), but that might be personal preference. Roughly same price as the Enfield, $500 to arm ten men. Consider the M38 or M44 carbine versions; they're pretty handy.

4. .303 British Enfield. Only real drawback is scarce, expensive ammo. Otherwise, same as #2; they tend to be nicer, and more expensive, though I couldn't put a number on that.

5. Bows. Kiddie-strength fiberglass recurves tend to be too light (20-25#) but if you can find something upwards of 30#, these might be a good option. Shop around, keep your eyes open at thrift shops and the like. Invest in good arrows. Or, you could make them, although this is a skill that takes some learning. Probably a best bet if you cant afford to hand out firearms. Cost varies widely.

6. Pikes/spears. You can buy replica spearheads from Museum Replicas for about $30 apiece, or you can get cheap surplus bayonets and weld them inside a piece of pipe to act as a socket, then attach that to a 6' to 10' hardwood pole. Keep the bad guys at a distance. Only a little cheaper than the Enfields, depending on what method you use.

7. Baseball bats and/or machetes. Cost about $5-10 if you shop around, $50-100 to arm ten men. Better than nothing.

[Rooster]

edited also.