It is currently Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:34 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:22 am 
Offline
ZS Member
ZS Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:49 am
Posts: 4065
Location: Pickle Bucket Brigade
crypto wrote:
They make a mess of little critters


Soooo... Not recomended, if hunting for small game? :lol:

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:38 am 
Offline
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 15857
Location: City of Saint Louis
No, they're fine, it just makes cleaning them more of a hassle. It stops them immediately.

_________________
MF'N TEAM LEADER

"Some people think that the best way to stop the leopard is to cut the horns off the gazelle. This, my friends, is insane."

Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:17 am
Posts: 13
I know this is an old thread but.....

How can you say an arrow wouldn't generate shock?

I have a 65 lb hoyt compound bow that says otherwise. It will shoot braodheads two inches into solid wood and shatter my carbon arrows. That's got some shock value. If my bow, with a broadhead, shot that arrow. Alive or living dead, that fucker is incapacitated.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:53 am 
Offline
* *

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 166
Location: Newport News, VA
Alright, I'm contributing to necromancy here - but compare ballistic gel tests of arrows, as compared to something like a .357SIG. The permanent wound channels are somewhat similar, maybe even bigger for the arrow, but the pistol bullet will generate a lot more temporary stretch damage (and there's no contest compared to something heavy like a .454 Casull, or fast like a .300 Win Mag - those are both likely to generate enough of a pressure wave to seriously disrupt a skull.)

Temporary stretch cavities don't mean much for body shots, but in neural tissue in a confined space, like say the brain inside the skull, it'll make a meck of a hess.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:18 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:20 am
Posts: 1213
Location: Hawkeye State
Seems an appropriate place to bring up poor old Phineas Gage.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

_________________
The Devil's always smiling when I pass by.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:14 am 
Offline
* * * * *

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:15 am
Posts: 1309
moorjust wrote:
How can you say an arrow wouldn't generate shock?


Oh, it DOES generate shock. Just not nearly as much as a handgun round. You can see that clearly on hispeed video into ballistic gelatin. An arrow simply flies in straight. Usually it will go in pretty deep. But the wound canal is just as wide as the shaft.

A bullet, say a .357 Mag, will fly in, deform, tear the gelatin apart and open up a cavity maybe 6 inches wide, and often enough stop after pretty much the same distance as the arrow. Both projectiles will have spent all of the shot energy inside of the gelly - but the energy of the bullet happens to be several times higher. Hence the much more devastating effect on the tissue.

The article I was originally referring to proves that even a human can survive a skull penetration with an arrow, at least initially. A Zombie uses only a small part of the brain, it will be even more crucial to hit the head at the exact right spot when using bolts and arrows.

Broadheads - I am sceptical. Those work great for soft tissue. But the blades are usually very fragile. I am afraid that skull hits are best done with a field tip or maybe a bodkin. Yes, there are folding broadheads, but those open right in impact. Ideal Zombie skull breakers would have a delayed opening system, so they open up once the blades are inside of the skull cavity. I am unaware of such broadheads - maybe a lucrative market niche.

_________________
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:49 am 
Offline
* * * * *

Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:09 am
Posts: 1524
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Sounds like a good time for the Duke boys' 'splodey arrows. :mrgreen:

_________________
Proud to be a Neo-Tribal Metalsmith scavenging the wreckage of civilization.

Forged blades: www.helmforge.com

Stock removal blades: www.helmgrind.com

The Wasteland Crow Project: http://wastelandcrow.blogspot.com

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:55 am 
Offline
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:28 am
Posts: 2150
They don't always penetrate completely.

WARNING: GORE
http://morticom.com/bloodandgutsinjuriesentry1.htm

Image

_________________
Image


Last edited by shrapnel on Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NSFW pictures removed


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:54 pm 
Offline
* * * * *

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:15 am
Posts: 1309
My point 100%. Broadheads are poor skull penetrators. Ouch, in any case :)

_________________
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:02 pm
Posts: 16
[img]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/10/ugy5yduh.jpg[/img]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:02 pm
Posts: 16
moorjust wrote:
. Alive or living dead, that fucker is incapacitated.


I LOL'D soooo hard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:05 pm 
Offline
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 10:06 am
Posts: 5225
Location: Maine
Grant wrote:
Well, to offer a real-life example of something being head-shot that may not be using much of it's brain, I had to deal with a rabid doberman-sized mixed thing once. It was pretty bad shape, it had been biting anything it brushed against (including a telephone pole) and was pretty much as far gone as a rabid dog can get and still stand.

I shot it once, and despite the bullet passing through the temple from the side, and causing it to fall, the dog got up, and staggered. I put another shot through the back of the head and it did drop. But I have never seen a rabid get back up after a bullet goes clean through from the side of the head.

Admittedly, at that point, very little of the brain was left, most likely, but it did make me realize 'head' and 'brain', or even all parts of the brain, are not equal.



Way to go, Atticus!

_________________
The Restless Dead http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=80397

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:17 am
Posts: 13
I have been an archer since I was big enough to pull back a bow. And with the right bow/arrow combo you will get through one side of that skull and out the other. I have absulutely no doubt of that. I would use my high poundage bow. It does matter what tip you use I suppose. You could use a blunt tip to smash the skull. (An arrow at 225 fps will generate 52 psi upon impact. It only takes 15psi to smash the average skull. My bow shoots at 325fps. I would calculate that, using cross multiplication, to be around 75 psi of impact. More than enough to, as I stated, incapacitate) or you could use a single blade flat head. Those are great penetrators and will leave a wide slice through the brain. And I would argue that many of those open upon impact heads, which have thicker blades than the fixed, would do a great job. And all at about the same effective range of your average open sight .357. Detract away, but you will run out of bullets. I will never run out of arrows. They are so easy to make. And I will probably outshoot your handgun. Maybe not as fast, but i never said I wouldn't have back up in the form of a gun. Also, my arrows are nearly silent. Shoot that gun and they will hear you for miles. Then I will find the bullets you had in your pocket as I pull my arrow out of your zombie ass. More ammo for me. Also I have thought about taping an m80 to the arrow shaft and using a head designed to stick in an inch or two (for small game) BOOM!...... Still I want to be quiet. So maybe I would never use that one. Or there are arrows that carry a .357 shell in them and detonate on impact. These kinds of things could also be great for sending the noise and the zombies away from your location for a sneaky getaway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:22 am 
Offline
* * * * *

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:15 am
Posts: 1309
Moorjust, I think you are right. With the proper arrow you CAN pierce a skull. But that arrow would probably not cause to much damage to the brain tissue. A Zombie may still function well enough to bite you in the backside.

I have an idea for a special arrowhead that first pierces the skull, goes in two inches maybe and then two blades would open up INSIDE of the skull cavity. I guess the effect can be tested with a particle board and ballistic gelly.

_________________
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:50 pm 
Offline
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:28 am
Posts: 2150
JoergS wrote:
Moorjust, I think you are right. With the proper arrow you CAN pierce a skull. But that arrow would probably not cause to much damage to the brain tissue. A Zombie may still function well enough to bite you in the backside.

I have an idea for a special arrowhead that first pierces the skull, goes in two inches maybe and then two blades would open up INSIDE of the skull cavity. I guess the effect can be tested with a particle board and ballistic gelly.


Personally, I'd be very interested in this idea of yours. I follow the standard idea of a rubber band holding blades in place until contact. If you have thought up some nifty idea that would allow blades to expand after passing bone, well that's just great and I would love to hear more.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:10 pm 
Offline
* * *

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 340
Location: South County, St. Louis, MO
The design of a mechanical broad head that opened only after a few inches of penetration really isn't that hard. Make the point itself 3" long roughly and put some kind of trigger mechanism at the point where the arrow meets the base of the point. That way when that "trigger" get to the skull, it already is 2-3" inside the skull and the blades can then expand. Spring loaded would probably work. The whole point might be fairly heavy though... 200gr vs. 100-125gr for most broadheads. Maybe even more...

_________________
"Watermelons, because they taste so much better than glass bottles when you shoot them with a machine gun"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:34 pm 
Offline
ZS Member
ZS Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:25 am
Posts: 3531
Location: Jackson, KY
The Swhacker Broadhead doesn't open until it has penetrated the hide and bone.


Image

I am not affiliated with this company in any way.

_________________
vyadmirer wrote:
Call me the paranoid type, but remember I'm on a post apocalyptic website prepared for zombies.

Fleet #: ZS 0180

Browncoat

Imma Fudd, and proud of it.

ZS Wiki


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:38 pm 
Offline
* * *

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 340
Location: South County, St. Louis, MO
I can see those working well on a skull shot...

_________________
"Watermelons, because they taste so much better than glass bottles when you shoot them with a machine gun"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:51 am 
Offline
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:28 am
Posts: 2150
I'm referring to something that opens after penetration. Not something that's simply a longer bolt; I'm sure Joerg meant the same. In my mind, if something expands after it enters the hard stuff, then it makes soft stuff more soup like. Or at least makes more soft stuff bleed more.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:23 am 
Offline
* * * * *

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:15 am
Posts: 1309
I am thinking about two blades that are held closed by a collar ring. The collar ring is maybe three inches behind the tip. As soon as the arrow tip has penetrated three inches into the skull, the collar hits the forehead and is pushed back, opening the blades. Then the arrow would be "allowed" to travel three more inches with the blades open.

The collar opens the blades simply because they are curved liek a boomerang. The collar pushes the curved ends into the shaft, pushing out the tips. No springs, no rubber, just the blades, the collar and the arrow.

_________________
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:53 am 
Offline
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:45 am
Posts: 5243
Location: Deepest East Anglia, UK
JoergS wrote:
I am thinking about two blades that are held closed by a collar ring. The collar ring is maybe three inches behind the tip. As soon as the arrow tip has penetrated three inches into the skull, the collar hits the forehead and is pushed back, opening the blades. Then the arrow would be "allowed" to travel three more inches with the blades open.

The collar opens the blades simply because they are curved liek a boomerang. The collar pushes the curved ends into the shaft, pushing out the tips. No springs, no rubber, just the blades, the collar and the arrow.


I've seen rubber bands used on expandable broadheads to ensure penetration before expansion. They work just as Joerg describes, but not with perfect reliability, from what I've been informed.

_________________
My Guide to making your own Bowstring
My Guide to making your own Flint Arrowheads
My Guide to Fletching
My Guide to Primitive Fletching
Cymro wrote:
Seriously, I'm not sure I'd fuck with Ad'lan if he had his bow with him. I just don't see that ending well.

Please Check out my PAW Story, Fagin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:50 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:20 am
Posts: 1213
Location: Hawkeye State
Ad'lan wrote:
JoergS wrote:
I am thinking about two blades that are held closed by a collar ring. The collar ring is maybe three inches behind the tip. As soon as the arrow tip has penetrated three inches into the skull, the collar hits the forehead and is pushed back, opening the blades. Then the arrow would be "allowed" to travel three more inches with the blades open.

The collar opens the blades simply because they are curved liek a boomerang. The collar pushes the curved ends into the shaft, pushing out the tips. No springs, no rubber, just the blades, the collar and the arrow.


I've seen rubber bands used on expandable broadheads to ensure penetration before expansion. They work just as Joerg describes, but not with perfect reliability, from what I've been informed.


This is very true. When they work, they are devastating. But as with all things mechanical, it's not a "if they fail", it's "when they fail". Pretty sure Murphy has it out for me so when I am hunting I try to eliminate as many potential errors that might come into play as possible. I use fixed blades and have no problems harvesting deer with them.

_________________
The Devil's always smiling when I pass by.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:06 pm 
Offline
ZS Member
ZS Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:25 am
Posts: 3531
Location: Jackson, KY
MaconCJ7 wrote:
I'm referring to something that opens after penetration. Not something that's simply a longer bolt; I'm sure Joerg meant the same. In my mind, if something expands after it enters the hard stuff, then it makes soft stuff more soup like. Or at least makes more soft stuff bleed more.


Well, this is the Swacker closed and opened:

Image

It doesn't open until after penetration.

_________________
vyadmirer wrote:
Call me the paranoid type, but remember I'm on a post apocalyptic website prepared for zombies.

Fleet #: ZS 0180

Browncoat

Imma Fudd, and proud of it.

ZS Wiki


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:36 am 
Offline
* * * * *

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:15 am
Posts: 1309
The disadvantage of the swackers, while they do look pretty sweet, is that the "small" blades still have to penetrate the skull. That will generate additional friction and soak up precious energy.

Those swackers are ideal for going through a thick hide, like a wild boar. But I believe for a skull cavity impact, there is room for optimization.

_________________
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group