Who needs Katanas

[Jeriah]

All depends on how solid that tang is. Museum Replicas claims their swords all have burly full tangs, if true, that would indeed be an excellent melee weapon, ideal for skull splitting.

[Skaramine]

I think you mean "fully enclosed hilt" as in "basket hilt." The pommel (derived from the French pomme meaning apple) is the (usually round or sort of round) solid thing at the bottom end, below the hilt, which functions primarily as a counterweight for the blade. They can also be used as a striking surface, but in an "icepick" motion, not a punching motion. Both this, and punching with the basket hilt/guard, are effective maneuvers that were widely used historically, although primarily as part of a setup for a killing blow with the blade.

MANY MANY THANKS!

[Ethical_Weasel]

One would think that with the effects a katana has on unarmoured flesh and bone, it would be the optimal close combat weapon. A saber would do a lot of damage, strangely enough though, historically most sabers were not sharpened (I know it sounds odd but it is true, an unsharpened blade can still cut.).

And to add to the earlier comments about the Ninja-to, technically you would have a better chance using a Wakazashi, it's around the same length and is curved for added cutting power. It is also important to note that the "Ninja-to" was never actually used by ninjas, that is just a common misconception.

[Skaramine]

One would think that with the effects a katana has on unarmoured flesh and bone, it would be the optimal close combat weapon. A saber would do a lot of damage, strangely enough though, historically most sabers were not sharpened (I know it sounds odd but it is true, an unsharpened blade can still cut.).

The saber's laceration factor was caused by tearing flesh, not actual slicing edge. It still was enough to cause traumatic injury, however, and the strength of the blade was still sufficient to break ribs and collarbones, preventing your opponent from fighting back after a hard whack.

And to add to the earlier comments about the Ninja-to, technically you would have a better chance using a Wakazashi, it's around the same length and is curved for added cutting power. It is also important to note that the "Ninja-to" was never actually used by ninjas, that is just a common misconception.

+1 on the Ninja-to never being used by ninjas, per se. In gun terms, the Ninja-to strikes me as a SIGMA (quality, dependable, but no frills) to the M&P (higher price, more polished).

[King Tiridates]

When I said Ninja-to, I meant all straight, single edged blades and swords carried by Ninja and similar types.

The Tokagure carried theirs in shorter sheaths to accomadate messages, blinding powders, etc. The sheathes were frequently reinforced so they could be used to club an opponet, or to fend off an attack, among other things.
They used the extremely long sageo to create web like seats in trees for observation, or for other purposes.
The sword itself (while sheathed) could be used as boost step for going over or up a wall, and the long sageo would be used to haul it back up to them.
This was possible because of the generaly large tsuba.
Some other similar weapons were shorter, curved blades meant for close quarters, and frequently had little or no tsuba, to prevent a large profile under clothing, and to prevent it from snagging, as well.

The Ninja-ken that I refer too from the Tokagure were frequently not nearly as sharp or expensive (and were therefore made thicker, due to the lack of quality steel) as a katana, and they made up for the lack of edge, length, and curved cutting surface with brutal, full body-weight, slamming cuts, designed to cause huge trauma to the limbs and trunk of the opponet.

[SMERSH]

is the cut out for aerodynamics?

[SMERSH]

When I said Ninja-to, I meant all straight, single edged blades and swords carried by Ninja and similar types.

The Tokagure carried theirs in shorter sheaths to accomadate messages, blinding powders, etc. The sheathes were frequently reinforced so they could be used to club an opponet, or to fend off an attack, among other things.
They used the extremely long sageo to create web like seats in trees for observation, or for other purposes.
The sword itself (while sheathed) could be used as boost step for going over or up a wall, and the long sageo would be used to haul it back up to them.
This was possible because of the generaly large tsuba.
Some other similar weapons were shorter, curved blades meant for close quarters, and frequently had little or no tsuba, to prevent a large profile under clothing, and to prevent it from snagging, as well.

The Ninja-ken that I refer too from the Tokagure were frequently not nearly as sharp or expensive (and were therefore made thicker, due to the lack of quality steel) as a katana, and they made up for the lack of edge, length, and curved cutting surface with brutal, full body-weight, slamming cuts, designed to cause huge trauma to the limbs and trunk of the opponet.

the "ninja-to/ninja-ken" is a fictional weapon

[Jeriah]

I don't believe that's true. The Wiki, however, is on your side: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjato

"Ninjatō (忍者刀) is a Japanese sword used by ninja that was similar to the katana, but tended to be straighter, and was generally not made of folded metal.

Many beliefs are held about the sword of the ninja. The discussion on veracity of these is left out of this article; however this weapon is almost certainly entirely fictitious.

(Using a sword with inferior strength, blade geometry, and cutting ability would not have been useful to a ninja's purpose. Even more baffling would be a ninja carrying a sword that could have automatically identified him as a spy. To be less conspicuous, ninja carried daishō since such weapons were commonly carried by the samurai class.)"

This article addresses the issue without really answering the question: http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/ninjasword.html

"Often depicted as a straight bladed weapon with a square guard, the ninja sword (or "ninja-to") is an area of historical controversy. Contrary to the many fine examples of curve-bladed swords used by Samurai, the fabled "ninja-to" does not have living historical examples among today's antique swords in museums or private collections."

A BBC article presents something close to the standard "myth":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A575642

"A great deal is said of Ninja weapons. But one thing is certain; they lacked the sophistication, precision, and quality of the swords of the Samurai4. The Samurai sword has been the subject of countless essays on its form, function, and composition; a Samurai's blade was his life, his very soul. He lived by the sword, he died by the sword. A Ninja's sword - or any other weapon he might carry - was just another tool.

The Ninjato was a short sword, crafted with far less care than the Samurai katana or tachi. The Samurai sword art, Kenjutsu, focused almost exclusively on attack, especially in its more advanced forms, but the Ninja sword was more used in defence. It was often straight, and, although some did possess a curve to make them more effective slashing weapons, overall there was more emphasis on the thrust. Additionally, the short blade would be quicker to draw than a longer one, and it has been suggested that, in the event of an unavoidable confrontation, this would allow the Ninja to incapacitate a Samurai's sword arm before he could draw his katana and slice the Ninja into Ninja-sukiyaki.

It was said of Arthur's blade, Excalibur, that the scabbard was worth ten of the sword, and such is also said of the Ninjato. Ninjato scabbards were longer than the swords, allowing the tip to be used as a storage compartment for various small tools, almost like a Swiss army knife. Some also mention detachable tips, turning the scabbard into a blowgun (highly unlikely) or a snorkel. The sword itself may also have been used as a climbing tool (certainly an action unthinkable to a Samurai), suggesting that the Ninjato might be forged for durability rather than to hold a perfect cutting edge. "

It seems like the general feeling is that nobody really knows if they existed or not. Of course you can't prove a negative like that (you can't find an artifact of something NOT existing) and so the burden of proof must be upon those asserting that the sword existed, and no such proof exists. Yet this doesn't mean the sword is wholly fictional, as it is not unreasonable that if the ninja were so secretive and small in number, they may indeed have used these swords and they simply haven't been dug up by archaeologist or whatever.

SMERSH: what weapons do you believe the ninja used? Where do you believe the myth of the ninjato came from?

[SMERSH]

SMERSH: what weapons do you believe the ninja used?

bare hands, farming implements, various forms of throwing knives, wakazashi, short staff, katana (if they were a samurai, or were posing as one), ect. a ninja (or any spy for that matter) would try to eliminate any indication of who they are, and carrying around something like a "ninja-to" would do the opposite of that. its tradecraft 101

Where do you believe the myth of the ninjato came from?

overblown legends or misinterpreted facts

[King Tiridates]

Many ninja weapons were concealed in staffs, walking sticks, even long flutes.
Some of these, a surprising number of them, were of sword length.

The weapon that I described would fit into the multi-use, low budget way the ninja did their equipment. If a weapon needed to be left behind, so be it. Most of the equipment served redundent purposes, so if they had to ditch their shoge-kyuketsu for example, they could use their sageo cord to help shimmy up a tree while escaping.

The weapon that I described would be used for specific infiltration, sabotage, or assasination jobs, where simply being seen in an area would identify the person as a spy or threat.
The weapon would be light, have many uses, and afford decent concealment, meaning they wouldn't have to carry huge amounts of other equipment.
While infiltration by more subtle means would be prefreable, time wasn't always a luxury they could afford.

Knowing about the monetary limits that the historical ninja faced, along with their tactics, techniques, and abilities, shows that this weapon is likely to have exsisted, in my opinion.

[Ethical_Weasel]

If it did exist then a ninja would have discarded it pretty quickly, after all if you came across a samurai with a better sword then you, you would probably try to take his sword and use that instead of your low quality one.

I have no doubt that the ninja used multiple weapons, but i have a feeling that if they were going out in their stereotypical black suits (which in itself is a misconception) they would probably carry something even smaller, probably around knife sized (or prehaps a wakazashi). You would be surprised how having a sword on your back would limit your mobility when you are trying to concentrate on not being seen. It makes much more sense if there is no need to conceal it inside a diguised sheath to simply attach all thise accessories to a wakazashi.

However back to the original topic, if this is a weapon made for primarily stealth purposes as opposed to combat then it is not really made for going against zombies, is it? I mean zombies probably would detect you anyway.

If your curious where the myth of the ninjato came from I beleive it has something to do with the production of cheaply forged katanas or the swords that preceded the katana.

[Skaramine]

Katana's are labor intensive. They take 1000 blows to forge, and the steel is folded multiple times in the forging. And they were built strong, to smash through an enemy samurai's helmet and cause intensive skull trauma with a sharp flick of the wrist, as well as being a headcutter blade.

Katanas were owned by the wealthy and by nobles.

But they weren't the only swords. The so-called ninja-to's were along the lines of peasant swords - but who in 20th or 21st Century Western lands would buy a "peasant sword?" An so, clever people marketed cheapo blades as "the mystic weapon of the ninja!"

In the meantime, real ninjas with their disguised steel-tine fans with poisoned tips snort in derision, and have probably perfected a totally non-ferrous reloadable, disposable firearm with an integral suppressor, because, like, this is the 21st Century already. "Stealth firearms" would fit in with a true ninja's setup, even if they have to put a folding stock AK in a tennis racket case.

[Tomcat1066]

snip...even if they have to put a folding stock AK in a tennis racket case.

Guitar cases work well also

Tom

[Skaramine]

Or Tommy guns in violin cases.

Yea, yea, shee?

[Eisenbart]

Good thinking!
Before i read those posts of Jeriah and King Tiridates,
i'd bluntly explained Ninjato's away as a"Hollywood Fantasy"

"Why would a Spy carry a weapon that would clearly identify him/her
as a Spy"
You gave me something to think about guys!

The absence of archeological findings,or of Swords in family heritage
would seem clear if Ninjas regarded their Swords as Toosl to be discarded off when not further needed.

Thank's for the Input guys!

But after all the Ninjato is nothing i'd feel very comfy with

Slash'n drop you know

Some excelent reasoning though!

[SMERSH]

Katana's are labor intensive. They take 1000 blows to forge, and the steel is folded multiple times in the forging. And they were built strong, to smash through an enemy samurai's helmet and cause intensive skull trauma with a sharp flick of the wrist, as well as being a headcutter blade.

Katanas were owned by the wealthy and by nobles.

most "ninjas" were relatively poor, and were not of the samurai class. however, there were some "ninjas" (hanzo for example) that were from a wealthy family, and even were samurai.

But they weren't the only swords. The so-called ninja-to's were along the lines of peasant swords - but who in 20th or 21st Century Western lands would buy a "peasant sword?" An so, clever people marketed cheapo blades as "the mystic weapon of the ninja!"

actually, it became illegal for peasants to possess swords when the samurai class was "grandfathered."

[Skaramine]

actually, it became illegal for peasants to possess swords when the samurai class was "grandfathered."

That was eventually the case. But I'm certain not every poor person gave away their blade to be melted down.

[SMERSH]

actually, it became illegal for peasants to possess swords when the samurai class was "grandfathered."

That was eventually the case. But I'm certain not every poor person gave away their blade to be melted down.

true, but i guess someone could have "revived" that kind of sword.

either way, the "peasant sword" is probably the one

[Skaramine]

Obviously it was a revived design. It worked, for its relative cheapness and utility, and was as disposable as you can get with a sword. But when the 70's martial arts craze hit like lightning, they could sell more peasant swords by giving them tacticool black sheathes and handles and calling them THE CHOSEN WEAPON OF THE NINJA!

Modern gun companies use the same tricks by putting rails and crap on pistols.

[King Tiridates]

Zombies, Swords, Ninjas, and More Swords!
This thread TOTALLY ROCKS!

If we have too much more awesome in this thread, it might warp the Fabric of Space/Time(which is cotton, oddly enough)!

[hunter :(]

Modern gun companies use the same tricks by putting rails and crap on pistols.

Stupid light rails! Who needs to identify targets anyways. Chances are its probably a burglar and not your teenage daughter sneaking back into the house.

[Skaramine]

Modern gun companies use the same tricks by putting rails and crap on pistols.

Stupid light rails! Who needs to identify targets anyways. Chances are its probably a burglar and not your teenage daughter sneaking back into the house.

And even if you have your weapon light on your teenaged daughter, you now suddenly have, unless you mount your light 90 degrees to the bore, YOUR PISTOL aimed at her. Yes. Good firearms safety.

Marines who've been dealing with their co-workers levelling weapon-mounted lights at them in the course of conversation in the sandbox most vociferously do not like weapon-mounted lights in conjunction with poorly trained fellows. Not to say a weapon-mounted light isn't a good thing with proper training (ie: not using it as a searchlight but to blind an opponent and identify them) but you've got too many people thinking their 1911, their 870, or their M-16 are glorified flashlights that shoot bullets, and point the muzzles at everything they want to light up, in violation of Rule #3 - do not point your weapon at anything you do not want to destroy.

'Nuff said, hunter. Chew on that logic for a few minutes.

[hunter :(]

And even if you have your weapon light on your teenaged daughter, you now suddenly have, unless you mount your light 90 degrees to the bore, YOUR PISTOL aimed at her. Yes. Good firearms safety.

Marines who've been dealing with their co-workers levelling weapon-mounted lights at them in the course of conversation in the sandbox most vociferously do not like weapon-mounted lights in conjunction with poorly trained fellows. Not to say a weapon-mounted light isn't a good thing with proper training (ie: not using it as a searchlight but to blind an opponent and identify them) but you've got too many people thinking their 1911, their 870, or their M-16 are glorified flashlights that shoot bullets, and point the muzzles at everything they want to light up, in violation of Rule #3 - do not point your weapon at anything you do not want to destroy.

'Nuff said, hunter. Chew on that logic for a few minutes.

Good firearms safety? I think you have watched one too many "Hunter Safety" videos. The light on your weapon is a tool, to identify targets. You basically reinforced my post, "NUFF SAID!" Using the words "poorly trained fellows" and firearms in any sentence ends up bad, using a weapons light or not (pat yourself on the back for this statement). The light (it is a light by the way) is attached to a safe reliable weapon, not a 1600 style flint lock pistol. If you need it (the light, not the gun) to read a map) use it. How about finger off the trigger? Would you like to reiterate that point? Any other obvious remarks you would like to make?

[Skaramine]

Guess what. Dumbasses exist who point gunmounted lights at their buddies. Try crossing anyone else at your local fireing range with the muzzle of your weapon without it being in slidelock or the cylinder out, and see how much they want to have a dumbass like you back at the range. Frankly, I'd be entirely happy to hear about all the broken bones you received for such lethal stupidity.

But, seeing as you can't acknowledge that "tac-lights" often lead to bad weapon handling, and only having a light on your gun, and not one on your belt for general purpose is your strategy, I'll be glad to not have you backing my play ZPAW or any other time, Hunter.