Minor scuffle at a gas station. AAR

[jamoni]

Yesterday my son and I went snake hunting. On the way, we stopped at a local gas station for snacks and camera batteries.
I opened the door and let my son through ahead of me. As I did so, a guy about my age and size (mid 30s, 5'8, 160 ish) kncoked my 9 year old kid out of the way and tried to shoulder past me. I heard a clerk shout "Stop that motherfucker!" and I grabbed for him but he slipped past.
The clerk was coming up quick, so I jumped out of his way, and checked my son, who seemed fine. I turned and chased after the two. My thought was that, if the guy got away, so what, but if they started scuffling, two of us could subdue the guy more safely for him and us than one.
The clerk kicked the guys legs just as he started to pull away. They both went down, but the perpetrator got up quicker, and seemed about to attack the clerk. At that point, I grabbed him from behind in a two-on-one on his left arm, and slammed him in a reasonable facsimile of a 5 point throw. The fight pretty much went out of him at that point. I held him down on his right side, trying to pin his right arm in case he had a weapon. The clerk then grabbed his right wrist and locked it up.
He told the guy to give back the beer he had stolen (all this for a fucking beer?). The clerk announced that he had a knife and the perpetrator better not try anything, then told me to let the guy up. I did, and told the clerk "It's not worth using the knife, man." Later he said he just had it in case the other guy had a weapon. Anyway, we let him up, got the beer, and the clerk told hm to get the fuck out of there and never come back.

Lessons learned:
1. I always wondered how effective wrestling slams would be on concrete. They are pretty damn effective. I didn't get a full lift on him, more of sagging back and then tossing him over my hip, but he hit like a 100lb sack of shit, and didn't want any more scuffling after that.
2. I let my priorities get tangled. My first priority should have been making sure my son was safe. Who cares if the guy got away? To be frank, other than giving him a quick glance to make sure he was standing and breathing, I just did what came natural and got into a scrap. I need to think about that.
3. Even skinny ass long haired gas pumpers carry blades in STL.
4. Lots of people like to talk about what they would have done after watching you do it.
5. No free snacks? Seriously?
6. Hand control. If the clerk had been less on the ball, I might have had a problem, since the guy had his right hand completely free. If he had a weapon it could have been real bad. In reality, he was in no shape to do much after being slammed, but still.
7. This is weird, but I experienced NO adrenaline rush, AT ALL. I was steady as a rock during and after the whole thing. I wasn't even breathing hard. That's a first for me. The only thing I can think of is that I've started back to work tower climbing, and I'm a lot better at regulating my fear and excitement levels when I'm spending time on the tower. Or maybe I'm just older and don't have as much adrenaline to dump.
Anyway, I hope this dude doesn't pop up to sue me. He'd be a damn fool if he did because he'd face shoplifting charges, plus assault for knocking my kid out of the way and going after the clerk, plus whatever the hell he did before making it to the door. I don't think he'd have a case, but he might have a dirtbag lawyer push it far enough to give me a headache.
Comments?

[Regular Guy]

Unless you're a damn good grappler made of steel, after the slam you should have stood up. Grappling with knives sucks. Once you were back on your feet you have 4 'weapons' to use the biggest and baddest is the soccer kick to the head. Slam him, stand up, and tell him if he gets up you're going to take it as a threat and you're going to put him down if he come at you.

I think you did everything right apart from laying on him. I go by this rule: If there is a greater possibility of saving someone else's life than losing my own, I have to act. That clerk put his life in jeopardy by going after him, backing his bad call was the right thing to do.

[Blacksmith]

You are way nicer than I would have been had someone hit my kid. That is all I am going to say about that.

I find as I get older that my body does not get worked up as much in stressful situations. Everyone is a little different I suppose.

4. Lots of people like to talk about what they would have done after watching you do it.

You got to control the internal lols and not do as I did once and screamed; "Well why the fuck didn't you do anything?"

[jamoni]

What you say is true, and I knew it. My next move would have been to scoot my hips out, get my feet in the small of his back, and launch him, followed by a quick standup.
Seriously, though, I'm not exaggerating when I say how hard he went down. I dropped him on his right shoulder and head, and I felt him sag and stay sagged. I think he went out for a second or two, and he was seriously disadvantaged for some time after that. It was a judgement call, but since I saw the clerk scrambling for the right arm, I went with holding him for the split second it took to get him fully locked up.

[jamoni]

You are way nicer than I would have been had someone hit my kid. That is all I am going to say about that.

I find as I get older that my body does not get worked up as much in stressful situations. Everyone is a little different I suppose.

4. Lots of people like to talk about what they would have done after watching you do it.

You got to control the internal lols and not do as I did once and screamed; "Well why the fuck didn't you do anything?"

To be fair, I have a lot of empathy for someone like that. I'm not condoning what he did, but if you've never been caught up in addiction and self destructive behavior, it's real easy to say "Fuck him, kick his ass." The way I saw it, and still see it, I ended things quickly and with a minimum of permanent injury. I don't think the guy hit hard enough to do any permanent damage, the clerk didn't get hurt or end up in prison for stabbing the guy, and we all went home. I call that a win. I mean, it's not like he singled my kid out to hurt, he was just trying to escape with a damn Bud Light.

[KentsOkay]

You are way nicer than I would have been had someone hit my kid. That is all I am going to say about that.

I find as I get older that my body does not get worked up as much in stressful situations. Everyone is a little different I suppose.

4. Lots of people like to talk about what they would have done after watching you do it.

You got to control the internal lols and not do as I did once and screamed; "Well why the fuck didn't you do anything?"

To be fair, I have a lot of empathy for someone like that. I'm not condoning what he did, but if you've never been caught up in addiction and self destructive behavior, it's real easy to say "Fuck him, kick his ass." The way I saw it, and still see it, I ended things quickly and with a minimum of permanent injury. I don't think the guy hit hard enough to do any permanent damage, the clerk didn't get hurt or end up in prison for stabbing the guy, and we all went home. I call that a win. I mean, it's not like he singled my kid out to hurt, he was just trying to escape with a damn Bud Light.

See? There is the guy's problem. For a Guinness or Corona, it would have totally been worth it!

Seriously though, good on you for taking action and willing to prevent some other guy from biting off more than he can chew.

[Biggin]

I can't really critique you.... I've never been in that type of situation. I don't have kids. If I had been walking in, I suppose I would have done whatever my instincts told me to (which seems like what you did?).

Sounds like a win for you and the clerk.

[raptor]

You did great, no harm to you or your son. Kudos to you.


That said I am to reinforce this point:

2. I let my priorities get tangled. My first priority should have been making sure my son was safe. Who cares if the guy got away? To be frank, other than giving him a quick glance to make sure he was standing and breathing, I just did what came natural and got into a scrap. I need to think about that.

You had no duty or obligation to the store, the clerk or anyone else other than your son. If the BG had a firearm or even a knife things would not have turned ugly quick. If you were injured, neither the clerk nor the store would have paid for your medical bills, loss of wages, etc. Yes you could sue but since you willingly went after the guy you lose to contributory negligence counter claims. So there, you have a very good lesson; being the good sumaritan put you and your kid at risk and the ungrateful store did not even give you free coke for your effort. No good deed goes unpunished.

I am not saying what you did was wrong, in fact kudos to you for doing that. However, IMO I would have suggested getting your son to a safer place and called the police. In many parts of the US, incidents like this result in the BG pulling a firearm and spraying the area. That would be my primary fear during an incident like this. Do not get killed or disabled (or let your son get hurt) for $3.00 can of beer.

BTW I would have called the cops and had the guy arrested for assault of my kid, but then I am vindictive SOB when it comes to people hurting my family. The police report would give you some protection against a claim by the dirt bag.

I think the key take away is pick your fights. This is case where outcome (a loss of a $3 beer) in no way was enough to compensate you for the risk taken.


Again to be clear I am not criticizing the OP in any way. You made a judgement call, responded to the situation and the outcome (which is all that counts IMO) was favorable.

[Regular Guy]

If I wasn't clear, kudos for saving the clerk from his stupidity. I'm not sure if I emphasized that enough.

[squinty]

I think what you did was ballsy and noble, but that's not how I'd have played it. Mostly because I have less confidence in my level of fitness and HTH skills than you evidently have. I would not have risked getting cut or beat up over a beer, or a stranger's bad decision. Instead of getting involved in the fight, I would have stopped and thought about my own safety, and elected to call 911 and administer whatever first aid I could to whoever needed it following the fight. That's not something I'm especially proud of about myself, but that's me.

[jamoni]

Raptor, can't argue with anything you say. I've been soul searching, and the best thing I could have done would have been to hustle my kid away from harm. Thing is, I've got 29 years of experience as a single guy vs 9 years as a Dad. It's hard to shift gears.
On a comic note, my kid did the right thing, which was seek safety in the store, so he didn't see any of this. When I told him about it he said "I believe you, cause you had on your serious face."

[Tank Woman]

Thing about being a parent is, you used your Dad radar (maybe thats not the right word, but good enough). In a split second, you assessed that your son was unharmed, and took the next action. HAD your son been harmed, you would have instantly known, and taken a different action.
I think you did good.

[Nightwing]

I'm not going to knock you or your actions, but I am going to knock the shop clerk. All that over a freaking can of beer. If things turned out differently or he ended up having a weapon, now you are in the deep because the clerk wanted to play hero over a beer. I'm glad you and your son both were not hurt. Nice taken down! way to save the clerks ass.

[jamoni]

I'm not going to knock you or your actions, but I am going to knock the shop clerk. All that over a freaking can of beer. If things turned out differently or he ended up having a weapon, now you are in the deep because the clerk wanted to play hero over a beer. I'm glad you and your son both wont hurt. Nice taken down! way to save the clerks ass.

Yeah, right before the clerk kicked his legs it looked like he would get away, and I thought "Whew, that's over!!"

[Murph]

Even with a basic knowledge of BJJ, I can attest that ground grappling sucks... and ground grappling with weapons really sucks.

I'm not sure I'd have the same decision making process in that situation (for the reasons raptor stated,) but in the end your tactics worked.

Glad to hear you and your son are okay.

[Blacksmith]

In all fairness he did not know it was just a can of beer. They guy could have done something much more serious and catch worthy.

Years and years ago when I worked at 7-11 we were told stopping/ trying to stop a robbery was a firing offense. A lot of stores are like that. If I saw a chain store clerk chasing someone I would also have assumed it was about more than a can of beer.

[ElevenBravo]

You should try some Judo throws onto concrete... Much more effective! (After 7 years in corrections, I know.. but I cant say how I know)

[by-the-throat]

You should try some Judo throws onto concrete... Much more effective! (After 7 years in corrections, I know.. but I cant say how I know)

I can safely say there is no throw from any system that I would care to take on concrete. Concrete compared to mat is never pretty. Especially on people who don't know how to fall or take a throw, sometimes they twist around all funny and breakfall with their front teeth.

OT: I can say that I wouldn't have left my kid, but i don't know really-first off, I can't really speak to that situation because I've never been in it, and second off you didn't know if the guy was running off with a can of beer or to get his AR out of the trunk due to a previous verbal altercation, in which case it might be better to stop him before he gets there. Really, you're still pushing air and there are no charges pending, so fuck it, this counts as one for the plus column.

Very thought provoking AAR, thanks.

[jamoni]

You should try some Judo throws onto concrete... Much more effective! (After 7 years in corrections, I know.. but I cant say how I know)

I don't think so. I've got experience in Wrestling, Hapkido and Aikido, as well as a smattering of BJJ. I've seen throws. While wrestling throws generally take a little more energy, and need to be modified for street use, I really don't see how one method of smashing a guys head into the ground at x m/s is more effective than another method of smashing a guy's head into the ground at x m/s. The main difference is when you would choose to apply said method.
I tend to gravitate to Aikido style throws when someone is moving towards me. Irimi Nage and Ikkyo are big favorites. Sometimes I'll do some leg reaping if the guy resists going down. But in this instance, with all of his energy directed away from me and towards the clerk, it made more sense to get good body control, block his legs and sag back, and when he staggered, lift and throw. I briefly considered a chin twist throw, but that could have broken his neck and would have left me with NO hand control.
Anyway, my theory is that all martial arts are just different ways to approach a problem. Different tools. So you wouldn't say "Man, it's way better to build a house with a hammer than with a saw!"
EDIT: One thing I love about the two on one throw is that, no matter how we land or roll around, the two on one guarantees that I'll be behind him, with at least one of his arms locked up, and with good body control. It's very easy to hook the legs in and get GREAT body control, and transition from there to rear naked choke or arm locking submissions. If the opponent can get to a weapon, yeah, you have a problem, but arguably less of a problem than if you are grappling in front of him.

[raptor]

This incident reminds of a similar incident locally which ended very differently and very badly for the good sumaritan. He was murdered in front of his kids while taking them to school. He stepped in to stop a carjacking and was shot and killed by a 17 year old scumbag thug for his actions.

Most of the time (especially when it involves property theft) it is better to be a good witness and protecting yourself and your family. There is no reason to get killed or hurt protecting something that insurance can replace.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... illed.html

I am not saying do not defend yourself or your family...what I am saying is pick your battles...in today's violent times you may find your life endangered for silly amounts. There is no shame in backing off and letting the thugs have the item, especially you can identify them later to police.

[dallas]

So you attacked a stranger without knowing why you were attacking him?

[raptor]

No what he did was assist someone attacking a stranger after the guy ran into his child, under the reasonable assumption that the person in question was a felon. That is a very different and defendable position.

[jamoni]

So you attacked a stranger without knowing why you were attacking him?

EDIT: If you read my post, I believed, based on his movement towards the clerk, and the fact that he had just assaulted both me and my son, that he was about to attack the clerk. I intervened to stop that attack, and once the threat was over, I stopped my intervention.I know exactly why I did what I did, and I believe it was both legally and morally justified.

[Ad'lan]

No what he did was assist someone attacking a stranger after the guy ran into his child, under the reasonable assumption that the person in question was a felon. That is a very different and defendable position.

And the guy was committing a crime. Sure it was just a bottle of beer. Could easily have been an old ladies purse or maybe the guy was recognised from crimestoppers. Responding to the situation as he did was civic minded, even if the shopclerk might have made the wrong call in getting physical over Bud Lite.