"I want your headphones!" "Uhhh... who are you?"

[TDW586]

Funny.

I was running lite that night. I had just come from wednesday pool tournament at the local bar. Had probably a pitcher of beer in me. I don't think I could have come up that hill that fast with any added weight.

I'm not in the mood to play along with the people mocking you right now, so I'll just say what everyone is thinking.

"No you didn't, no one believes you, you're not impressing anyone, that didn't happen."

Just stop.

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

[Regular Guy]

When ever I write my own scenarios I'm always the baddest mutha eva. I mean, why not.

[Dave_M]

Trust your instincts. They evolved for a reason. One of the the major signs is being, 'creeped out' by someone. You may not consciously pick up on inordinate behavior but your, 'lizard brain' (primal subconscious) picks up on it and points it out. For me personally, whenever that creeps up, I try to analyze it using methodology (invariably based on interrogation tactics). Most people involved in victimization aren't formally trained in interrogation (and couldn't tell you what they're doing even if they made a conscious effort) and therefore aren't always intimately familiar with counter-tactics.

A great book about this, not nessecarily salient to this particular situation is:
The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense

Obviously, this is a more subtle thing than the particular situation but good info nonetheless.

In regards to understanding motivations and mindset of these people (and thousands of others you interact with who seek to manipulate), this book is really good:
The Sociopath Next Door

In reference to the sub-conscious versus the conscious, 'creeped out': Check it, think about how many hundreds of thousands of people you have interacted with. Not even people you've even directly talked to; a nod to someone in passing, body language interaction, and tons of other interactions. We intrinsically and unconsciously learn social mores. When someone creeps you out (who isn't a foreigner) it's for a reason.

This thread makes me want to post an account of cult member interaction and attempted recruitment a couple years ago (I was at an event with an ITP (Interrogator Translator) and it didn't turn out well for them. IE: Underlings met up with a professional in the field of manipulation who recognized exactly what was happening and got both of us out of there PDQ.) So, no future weird cult meetings for me due to his expertise.

[agent-smith]

This thread makes me want to post an account of cult member interaction and attempted recruitment a couple years ago (I was at an event with an ITP (Interrogator Translator) and it didn't turn out well for them. IE: Underlings met up with a professional in the field of manipulation who recognized exactly what was happening and got both of us out of there PDQ.) So, no future weird cult meetings for me due to his expertise.

I never knew you once took a tour of Magpul...

[Dave_M]

I never knew you once took a tour of Magpul...

Nah, didn't have him them. I ended up buying like 14 CTR's and 7 BAD levers...

[phractal]

I'm not in the mood to play along with the people mocking you right now, so I'll just say what everyone is thinking.

"No you didn't, no one believes you, you're not impressing anyone, that didn't happen."

Just stop.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, sport. I aint here to impress any of you mother fuckers. But if any of you are in law enforcement and feel really curious, you can look up the incident report. My name is Daniel Yates and the incident took place at roughly the 3500 block of Lombard ave. in Everett WA. in the summer of 2004 or there abouts. Knock yourselves out.

[callista]

I don't think it's that remarkable an event. Lots of people get into fights, especially when they are defending someone else. It's probably much harder to avoid coming to blows when there are multiple people involved, because it's harder to back away if you have to make sure someone else comes with you. The few times I ever hit my jerkass stepdad back, it was generally when he was getting in my sister's face for some imagined fault. Not that I was actually effective, because I suck at anything physical (and sucked even worse when I was a kid), but there are very few things that make me madder than somebody messing with my little sisters. It's also more socially appropriate to get into a fight on somebody else's behalf rather than your own, and that lowers the barriers even further. Ideally you want to get out of it without it getting physical, but sometimes that seems unavoidable, and sometimes you're just too mad to hold back.

I wanna find some books on how to send body-language signals properly. I don't really do that. I just move in ways that either feel comfortable to me or are efficient and get things done. If I could telegraph, "I am peaceful and nonthreatening, but will defend myself if you mess with me," then that would be perfect. I have learned over the years that people are not rational nor predictable; and I would rather not get into tense social situations than have to try to guess what to do on the fly. That takes a lot of quick thinking--which is something I'm only capable of when I'm writing or doing math, and I'm pretty sure your average thug isn't too enamored of differential equations.

[phractal]

If I could telegraph, "I am peaceful and nonthreatening, but will defend myself if you mess with me," then that would be perfect.

Like dressing up like Santa, with a gun on your hip. Looks friendly enough but you better hope your not on the naughty list.

I just try to look alert. Bad guys don't like alert.

[KentsOkay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mMaRmMthWQ

[Sckitzo]

This would have been one of those times I would have looked up and responded with, "Sprechen Sie Deutsch?"

Tried that one, guy fired back in rapid German... I know very little. Was a bit akward and embarrassing and after that bought stuff from the dude (was a street merchant in Cairo, ripped me off on some tea, but the two big dudes in the store staring at me didn't incline me to argue the point) I had lasted all of about 3 seconds before he started asking ME questions, I guess my random phrases I spit back did all that much

OT

That is definitely a odd situation, over all I think you handled it ok, can't say I'd have done a whole lot different. And yes people spat all the time, it's sort of interesting to watch the whole human pack thing in play.

[nateted4]

Man, the German move was a bad choice in the Mediterranean. There were more Kraut tourists than Yanks when I was in Greece! Any street vendor worth his salt would be able to push of overpriced crap on tourists in both languages!

[jamoni]

I'm as guilty as anyone else for starting to drag this off topic. Sorry about that.
However, I'd like to ask us all to get back on it.
Thank you.
.

[TDW586]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, sport. I aint here to impress any of you mother fuckers. But if any of you are in law enforcement and feel really curious, you can look up the incident report. My name is Daniel Yates and the incident took place at roughly the 3500 block of Lombard ave. in Everett WA. in the summer of 2004 or there abouts. Knock yourselves out.

Okay, it happened. And for some reason, a cop didn't arrest you for pulling a knife on a guy without legal justification. You're hardcore. Cool.

[phractal]

Okay, it happened. And for some reason, a cop didn't arrest you for pulling a knife on a guy without legal justification. You're hardcore. Cool.

It was in defence of another human being. I got a pat on the fucking back.

On topic. I agree with your recomendation of Gavin de Becker's book, The Gift Of Fear. Read it twice and came away with something different each time. Also read his book, Protecting The Gift. It's about instilling the core principles of threat assesment, avoidance, and management in our children. I think anyone who read either book wouldn't have been in the OPs situation, let alone been victimized.

I haven't read the other books you listed but I'll give em a once over.

[TDW586]

Cool dude.

[RoneKiln]

I wanna find some books on how to send body-language signals properly. I don't really do that. I just move in ways that either feel comfortable to me or are efficient and get things done. If I could telegraph, "I am peaceful and nonthreatening, but will defend myself if you mess with me," then that would be perfect. I have learned over the years that people are not rational nor predictable; and I would rather not get into tense social situations than have to try to guess what to do on the fly. That takes a lot of quick thinking--which is something I'm only capable of when I'm writing or doing math, and I'm pretty sure your average thug isn't too enamored of differential equations.

Another book that may be of value in normal day to day functioning is "You just don't understand" by Dr Tannen. It's about gender differences in linguistics and discusses a lot of the more subtle "alpha male" posturing and struggling that guys go through every day. Struggling for position in the percieved pack is a constant in our world, epsecially among guys. Part of what you witnessed was just a more overt display of it. For most of us we're not even really aware of it cause it's such a constant. Can't imagine it being of use in the scenario you described in the OP, but might help make some of the overall social aspects of what happened in that group make sense as well as compliment any studies in body language.

My facial expressions are pretty animated specifically cause they were learned fairly late in life. I was a young adult before I came to the realization that my face didn't express things well at all. One friend described me as "You always look like you're plotting the best way to kill us all." So I consciously worked at having more expressive facial expressions. I'm sure you can do the same with body language with a bit of conscious practice.

[solarguy]

So, regardless if they were axe murderers who decided randomly to take the day off, or "harmless" drunks, what would you think about carrying a more effective weapon? I'm thinking gun. That's assuming you could do that without risking going to jail, can get the appropriate license, etc.

In the unlikely event that next time, they really are axe murderers, you have a fighting chance when things go all ugly and nasty.

Statistically, if a woman is armed with a gun, once the attack starts, she has a 90% lower chance of being raped, compared with an unarmed woman. That statistic comes from the Dept. Of Justice under the Carter Administration.

Of course, we hope and pray that there will never be a "next time".

But if you could accurately predict the future, you would be very rich and you could hire several well-armed body guards, thus obviating the need to carry a gun yourself.

Finest regards,

troy

[squinty]

On one of my many journeys through the bus system, I sit on a bench, waiting for the bus. I've barely settled in, waiting and listening to a book on tape through my headphones, when two young men approach me. They're about my age, and one of them is carrying a bottle of vodka. Their pants sag to their knees in the much-ridiculed style that shows off one's boxers if one doesn't wear a long shirt.

Upon being given the universal signal for "remove your headphones" (made on the presumption that if I am wearing headphones I must be blasting my music so loudly that I can't hear them), I pull an earbud out and look at them. "Yeah?" I guess they want to ask what time it is, or if their bus has been by yet.

And then they throw me a curveball. One of the guys approaches me and asks for my headphones. Seriously--just comes up and asks for the headphones. His are broken, he explains, so he can't listen to his music.

I'm confused. There is no social protocol for this. But I figure, if he's so desperate to listen to his music that he'll ask a perfect stranger for headphones, I might as well hand them over; anyway, they're old and I need to get new ones soon. So I shrug and give him the headphones.

His friend isn't pleased. "Hey, you're scaring her," he protests, gesturing with the bottle of vodka. He's pretty close and he smells of alcohol.

"I don't know you," I reply, by way of explanation. I'm not actually scared, oddly enough. I'm just confused. In my experience there is no precedent for asking perfect strangers for personal possessions, and I can't figure out why one would need headphones so badly. But I have no clue how to explain that to them, so I just go with it. The guy who wanted my headphones introduces himself. I guess that means I know him now. I don't catch his name, though.

His friend still isn't having any of it. "You want a bus token?" he asks, handing me a bus token and not taking no for an answer. Reluctantly, I take it. Then he says, "I'm gonna give you a dollar," and proceeds to pull a large wad of bills from his pants pocket, rifling through them until he finds a single. "I'm gonna give you two dollars," he says, and hands over a couple of dollar bills. "You're God's gift to the world," he claims, and drapes one arm over my shoulders. I'm somewhat experienced with drunk people being overly affectionate, but I don't even know this guy, and that confuses me even more. "'Kay," I say. "Thanks." He backs off. I start breathing again. I don't like the smell of alcohol at all, and that was way too close.

As I sit staring at my feet, the two guys start arguing. I can't make out most of what they're saying. Apparently one guy pushed the other guy, and his excuse was that he was drunk at the time. This is a very simple issue, but somehow they manage to draw out the argument for the full twenty minutes I have to wait for the bus. I start worrying that they will start fighting, and I wonder whether I should call the police; but what exactly have they done (other than drinking in public) that the police would worry about? If they get too close, I'm totally getting them with my pepper spray, though.

As the fighting continues, more people start arriving; and apparently they all know each other. They're all the same age, twentyish or maybe late teens. They start taking sides or trying to negotiate. They add their voices to the chaos.

After a while, I forget about trying to hear what they are saying--I can't filter it out of their slangy accents anyway--and just listen to the cadence and pitch of their voices. The argument is rising and falling in a sort of rhythmic manner, a sinusoidal pattern of intensity. It reminds me of the time I spent living with housemates who had dogs--the dogs interacted in much the same way, not truly fighting but just sort of tussling for top dog, trying to feel each other out, snapping a bit but not biting down. The best I can figure, that's what these people are doing--feeling each other out, reinforcing their places in the hierarchy. The're like a pack of dogs; except (obviously) that they're human. It's quite odd. They even yell across the street to each other.

My bus comes and I get home without incident--but I'm pretty darn confused about the whole thing.

So... here are my questions.

Why would someone ask a perfect stranger for headphones?

Why did the second guy insist on paying me?

Do people really get into hierarchy spats like dogs do?--Non-serious fights in which they reinforce their position in a "pack"? Or was this something else altogether?

Was I ever in any danger--or am I just unsettled for no reason?

You got mugged. Lot's of muggers like to use the minimum amount of intimidation, and maintain as much plausible deniability as possible. So if asked, he could truthfully say "I asked for 'em, she gave 'em to me." The other guy was attempting to mollify you, while still asserting control and dominance (the touching etc) so you wouldn't make a stink.
I don't know how much danger you were in, but the intimidation was real enough, and deliberate.
Yes people, especially males 18-25, joust and tussle for dominance just like dogs, all the time.
I wouldn't have given my headphones. The proper response is "sorry, I'm using them." Then I'd probably have got off the bus, though if they decided to get off at the same time that would have left you stranded at a bus stop with them. But make no mistake; this was bullying behavior, and a robbery.

Lot's of criminals try to maintain a fiction that what's going on is consensual instead of coercive, and surprisingly a lot of victims go along with that charade, if they are scared or nonplussed, to reassure themselves that things are "normal."

The guys who mugged Bernhard Goetz protested that they were just panhandling. Some people found that persuasive, but not many people who regularly rode the NY subway system in the early eighties were fooled.

Jonathan Lethem describes these kind of low intensity muggings in "Fortress of Solitude," and elsewhere goes on a long riff about the origins of the word "mugging" or, in the parlance of his childhood, "yoking." He describes how after being mugged once or twice on the way to school, his attackers stopped taking everything he had and just started saying, in pleasant conversational voices, "hey, what've you got for me today?" Or "Let me hold a couple dollars." Outwardly, it looked like he had a choice, but he was acting out of intimidation, not out of free choice.

People have attempted to mug me by turning up the intensity a little bit at a time, first straight up panhandling, then getting increasingly argumentative and finally putting their hands on me before I was able to break free of the urge to be "polite" and fight back.

A friend of mine was a juror in a rape trial, where a man took a woman captive - he waited in the back seat of her car. When she got in he informed her that he had a knife, then asked her where she wanted to eat. Then they went on a "date," that involved drive through (paid with her debit card) a stop at the ATM (where her checking account got emptied) and an overnight stay at a motel, paid for with her credit card. Before the drive through, though, he instructed her to perform oral sex on him, and thanked her afterwards, and complemented her skill. He kept the knife pressed into her side at the restaurant and the ATM. In the motel room, he forcibly sodomized her several times that night, asked at one point if she had "cum," and in the morning made a few superficial cuts and suggested to her that they both keep "last night" a secret. There were a couple of jurors who were adamantly convinced that the whole affair was consensual. They were women. Their big question: why didn't she run or ask for help at the motel check-in desk?

[callista]

With many of these situations the question I keep on wondering about is: Where's the balance between being assertive, and simply escalating the situation?

From what I know about sociopathic types, they often have this extreme fear of being embarrassed--like, shown up to be weaker than they say they are, or having lost a conflict. I guess it makes sense because that means they lose face and lose status.

Triggering that is something that I instinctively want to avoid. If I do trigger it, then they will probably escalate into violence or obvious threats, and I don't want to do that, especially when outnumbered.

I don't know whether this instinct is correct. I know that I learned this principle (the hard way) at the hands of a stepfather who would immediately get more violent if I ever showed him up at anything, which to be honest was pretty easy because he was the kind of person who didn't like to think or learn. (No pity necessary; we are a tough family and we survived.) At any rate, what I learned with him was that you had to pretend that he was a good guy and it was your fault, even if you knew very well it wasn't. You had to pretend that he "obviously" had a right to lord it over you, because he was an adult and you were a child and that made him better than you, intrinsically. (Respecting your parents is one thing. Respecting a parent who's not worthy of respect because he lies and takes your family's money and won't get a job even though he can work whenever he wants to is quite another. Honestly it's the last one that made me the maddest, because if he knew what it was like to want to work and not be able to find a job, he wouldn't think so little of working.)

So, I'm not sure how well that principle carries over to street crimes and such. Should you avoid antagonizing people, act like this is a normal business transaction? Or does that just tell them you're an easy target? On the other hand, if you fight back (socially or physically), aren't you triggering the "I can't lose face" reflex and cornering them into escalating more than they planned?

[squinty]

With many of these situations the question I keep on wondering about is: Where's the balance between being assertive, and simply escalating the situation?

From what I know about sociopathic types, they often have this extreme fear of being embarrassed--like, shown up to be weaker than they say they are, or having lost a conflict. I guess it makes sense because that means they lose face and lose status.

Triggering that is something that I instinctively want to avoid. If I do trigger it, then they will probably escalate into violence or obvious threats, and I don't want to do that, especially when outnumbered.

I don't know whether this instinct is correct. I know that I learned this principle (the hard way) at the hands of a stepfather who would immediately get more violent if I ever showed him up at anything, which to be honest was pretty easy because he was the kind of person who didn't like to think or learn. (No pity necessary; we are a tough family and we survived.) At any rate, what I learned with him was that you had to pretend that he was a good guy and it was your fault, even if you knew very well it wasn't. You had to pretend that he "obviously" had a right to lord it over you, because he was an adult and you were a child and that made him better than you, intrinsically. (Respecting your parents is one thing. Respecting a parent who's not worthy of respect because he lies and takes your family's money and won't get a job even though he can work whenever he wants to is quite another. Honestly it's the last one that made me the maddest, because if he knew what it was like to want to work and not be able to find a job, he wouldn't think so little of working.)

So, I'm not sure how well that principle carries over to street crimes and such. Should you avoid antagonizing people, act like this is a normal business transaction? Or does that just tell them you're an easy target? On the other hand, if you fight back (socially or physically), aren't you triggering the "I can't lose face" reflex and cornering them into escalating more than they planned?

Here's a really really helpful answer: I don't know. Now that that's out of the way, I'm just going to keep typing to see what comes out.

I think that the behavior you learned from your stepfather is victim behavior. That "pretend it's my fault so they don't get even meaner" instinct is a reflex of yours that predators hope to trigger - or rather, it's a behavior they hope you'll choose.

There is a difference between passive, assertive, and aggressive. In my experience, calm, confident but polite (even if you don't feel those things) is about the right demeanor. I would have said to the headphone guy something like "Nope. Sorry, I need my headphones." I might have got up to move to the front of the bus away from the drunk guys as soon as I said that, and made a loud and bitter stink if they tried to stop me from moving.

In my experience, such as it is, the best of both world's is to look like a harder than average target (not afraid to say no) while letting the other guy have a graceful exit. No insults, no getting in his face as long as he's maintaining the fiction of politeness between you, but firmly and confidently say no to his demands, and protest anything he does that makes you uncomfortable. You have to decide at what point you give up trying to let him 'save face' as a losing strategy, and instead run, or fight, or call public attention to their behavior if there's anyone around who gives a crap (the bus driver and other passengers might have.) Learn to do all of these things as effectively as you can. A self defense course or legally carried weapon might be options. That's a personal choice for you to make.

I did a lot of risky and unassertive things, for a long time, because I didn't want to look like a jerk. Nowadays I value my safety more than strangers' opinion of me.

And, ultimately, listen to your instincts like other posters have said. You aren't responsible for other peoples' behavior, and you really have no control over what they decide to do. If they do get violent or nasty with you, it's not your fault. It's not something you caused by "triggering" a response, it's something they chose to do.

It's fair to ask yourself "how could I have avoided the situation, what clues were there that could have warned me" (sometimes there aren't any) or "what would have been a better way to resist or escape them," but never "what did I do to cause this attack." It's them, not you.

[Gyrfalcon]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, sport. I aint here to impress any of you mother fuckers. But if any of you are in law enforcement and feel really curious, you can look up the incident report. My name is Daniel Yates and the incident took place at roughly the 3500 block of Lombard ave. in Everett WA. in the summer of 2004 or there abouts. Knock yourselves out.

Okay, it happened. And for some reason, a cop didn't arrest you for pulling a knife on a guy without legal justification. You're hardcore. Cool.

That is quite possibly the worst apology I've seen for calling a man a liar.

[squinty]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, sport. I aint here to impress any of you mother fuckers. But if any of you are in law enforcement and feel really curious, you can look up the incident report. My name is Daniel Yates and the incident took place at roughly the 3500 block of Lombard ave. in Everett WA. in the summer of 2004 or there abouts. Knock yourselves out.

Okay, it happened. And for some reason, a cop didn't arrest you for pulling a knife on a guy without legal justification. You're hardcore. Cool.

That is quite possibly the worst apology I've seen for calling a man a liar.

The back and forth between phractal and TDW and others is fun, and I'm enjoying it, but I don't think it's doing much for the OP, who had kind of a serious question.
Maybe we should address her issues, and stop feeding the other bullshit. Please?

[TDW586]

Gyrfalcon, yes, I called him a liar, or at the least a boastful exaggerator. No, I did not apologize. It doesn't concern you, and the situation is over. If you'd like to discuss it further, please send me a PM. This thread contains useful info, please do not derail it. Thanks.

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

[squinty]

I think it's the meanest kind of mental judo to convince a victim that the attack was their fault. But I see that all the time, someone gets targeted for a crime and wonders what they did wrong. I think criminals do a similar kind of blame displacement as well, and try to rationalize or convince themselves that the victim caused the assault, or had it coming. Kind of chaps my butt thinking of these guys casually intimidating a lone woman. Scumbags.