Another Lesson in Situational Awareness

[LowKey]

So wait... It sounds like some people are advocating shooting someone who assaults them. Am I reading that right?

I advocate using the necessary force to end an unprovoked brutal attack on my person which unchecked I reasonably believe could end with me suffering grievous injury or death.

Anyone out there who doesn't consider a hard violent blow to the back of the head to have a good chance of causing an injury to the brain or death?

[squinty]

The nice thing about really good situational awareness is that it may let you avoid situations where you'd have to use your gun. The assault that doesn't happen because you crossed the street or picked a different train platform is more of a win than the assault you had to shoot your way out of.

There's a pretty famous case in Arizona (I'll dig for the link in a minute) where a man CCing in his own driveway - he was a professional pistol instructor if I remember correctly - was assaulted by three people. They were neighbors from across the street with whom his wife had had an argument shortly before the assault. They punched and kicked him, one of them struck him behind the head with a wine bottle and caused him to fall to his hands and knees, and they kept kicking and raining blows on him while he was down. He finally, from that vulnerable position, drew his weapon and fired. He injured one of the assailants, all three fled and called the police. He called as well. He was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, convicted, and only after years of appeals, and thousands of dollars in expense, did he get the conviction overturned. In gun friendly, castle doctrine Arizona. He only won the appeal because the assailants sued him in civil court, hoping to get his homeowners' insurance to pay up. In the criminal trial, they stated that he'd run into the middle of the street to confront them and willingly join the fight. In the civil case, they stated that the whole fight took place on his property. That inconsistency was brought up during his appeal.

OTOH I know personally, to my great shame and disappointment, a man serving time for "assault with a deadly weapon with intent to commit serious injury" in NC. The "deadly weapon" in this case was a pair of tennis shoes. He plead guilty to AWADWWITKSI, as part of a plea bargain, the original charge was attempted murder. The person he beat down had actually started the fight, but tried to break and run after he realized he'd be overpowered. The guy presently serving time pursued him for a few feet, and rained kicks and punches on the man after he was rendered supine and helpless. That man is now permanently blind and suffers form severe, apparently permanent cognitive impairments from traumatic brain injury.

The point? To confirm that an unarmed attack may in fact be a lethal attack, and a court may recognize it as such. If you are outnumbered or sustain a debilitating blow or injury, your life may well be in grave danger. BUT if you use your firearm in such circumstances, expect yet another fight for your life in court, and expect to have to defend your decision to use the firearm to a skeptical jury and prosecutor. Pull the gun too soon, and it's easy to question whether it was necessary. Pull it when you're certain you're going to die if you don't use it - that's probably too late. There's likely no room whatsoever between too soon and too late.

We all know this stuff. Situational awareness. Without it, you probably can't access your firearm in time. With it, you can render your firearm unnecessary, which we should all strive to do.

[LowKey]

The nice thing about really good situational awareness is that it may let you avoid situations where you'd have to use your gun. The assault that doesn't happen because you crossed the street or picked a different train platform is more of a win than the assault you had to shoot your way out of.

There's a pretty famous case in Arizona (I'll dig for the link in a minute) where a man CCing in his own driveway - he was a professional pistol instructor if I remember correctly - was assaulted by three people. They were neighbors from across the street with whom his wife had had an argument shortly before the assault. They punched and kicked him, one of them struck him behind the head with a wine bottle and caused him to fall to his hands and knees, and they kept kicking and raining blows on him while he was down. He finally, from that vulnerable position, drew his weapon and fired. He injured one of the assailants, all three fled and called the police. He called as well. He was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, convicted, and only after years of appeals, and thousands of dollars in expense, did he get the conviction overturned. In gun friendly, castle doctrine Arizona. He only won the appeal because the assailants sued him in civil court, hoping to get his homeowners' insurance to pay up. In the criminal trial, they stated that he'd run into the middle of the street to confront them and willingly join the fight. In the civil case, they stated that the whole fight took place on his property. That inconsistency was brought up during his appeal.

OTOH I know personally, to my great shame and disappointment, a man serving time for "assault with a deadly weapon with intent to commit serious injury" in NC. The "deadly weapon" in this case was a pair of tennis shoes. He plead guilty to AWADWWITKSI, as part of a plea bargain, the original charge was attempted murder. The person he beat down had actually started the fight, but tried to break and run after he realized he'd be overpowered. The guy presently serving time pursued him for a few feet, and rained kicks and punches on the man after he was rendered supine and helpless. That man is now permanently blind and suffers form severe, apparently permanent cognitive impairments from traumatic brain injury.

The point? To confirm that an unarmed attack may in fact be a lethal attack, and a court may recognize it as such. If you are outnumbered or sustain a debilitating blow or injury, your life may well be in grave danger. BUT if you use your firearm in such circumstances, expect yet another fight for your life in court, and expect to have to defend your decision to use the firearm to a skeptical jury and prosecutor. Pull the gun too soon, and it's easy to question whether it was necessary. Pull it when you're certain you're going to die if you don't use it - that's probably too late. There's likely no room whatsoever between too soon and too late.

We all know this stuff. Situational awareness. Without it, you probably can't access your firearm in time. With it, you can render your firearm unnecessary, which we should all strive to do.

Which is why someone who owns a firearm with even the smallest possibility of someday being in a situation where they may need to use it in self defense (i.e. every gun owner) should already have an attorney who can represent them in such a case; either on retainer or simply by making an office visit for consultation and discussion of such an occurrence. Then if such an unfortunate event occurs you call 911 followed by a call to said attorney. Let him talk to the police for you...you keep your mouth shut "on advice of legal counsel".

If you ever need to use your weapon in self defense it's going to be messy no matter what, but if you truly believe you are in grave danger of serious injury or death then the only alternative is to take the damage and hope you live......and if you really think they're trying to inflict that level of harm on you that just doesn't seam like a reasonable and prudent course of action.

[squinty]

So wait... It sounds like some people are advocating shooting someone who assaults them. Am I reading that right?

In SC if you are attacked by two or more people it's considered deadly force and you are lawfully able to respond in kind.

It's very important to know your local laws regarding self defense. It could mean the difference between going home, or going to jail. However, that wasn't really what I was asking... Unless of course you're implying an answer.

I'm quite sure nobody is advocating shooting an assailant in retaliation for an assault, if that's what you're asking, Murph. Nothing I've read in this thread seems to recommend that.

I would never advocate the use of a handgun to defend against a simple assault. There are situations where you may have technically been targeted for an attack, but don't have good reason to believe your life is in danger. Someone shoves you in line, throws a drink in your face and taunts you, takes offense at something you say and smacks you, puts their hands on you in anger but doesn't seem capable of really hurting you, or seems like they might calm down if you say or do the right placative thing, or whatever - there are lot's of non-lethal assaults, and if there isn't a good reason to believe that death/sexual assault/serious debilitating injuries are an imminent consequence of an assault, then no. NO guns or other lethal tools should be brought to bear, other means should be used instead.

However, to defend against an assault in which there is a near certainty of death/rape/serious injury, sure. And depending on the physical stamina of the victim, and the number of attackers and their persistence - yes, being attacked by a gang of people could well be a life threatening event.

WRT "happy slapping" or "knockout king" or whatever the current vogue term might be - If someone stuns you with one punch and walks away, then the assault is over, no point grabbing your weapon and pursuing them - that wouldn't be self defense, it would be revenge or a counterattack, and unethical. But in many cases referenced in this thread, the first punch is followed by a mob attack. People die quite easily when a mob tries to beat them into submission. If you're unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of mob violence, it probably would be appropriate to use a weapon to save yourself. Not to "shoot someone who assaults" you, no. But to save yourself from grave bodily harm, yes. If you are an older person, physically frail or otherwise vulnerable - as most of the victims seem to be - then the danger is even greater.

It's always preferable, of course, to steer around the iceberg instead of relying on your life jacket, preferable land the plane safely instead of relying on your ejector button and parachute, preferable to refrain from setting your kitchen on fire instead of relying on your fire extinguisher. Better to avoid confrontations instead of trusting a firearm, but it's still just as useful an item to have as the aforementioned life jacket, extinguisher, etc. and just as capable of saving your life if used appropriately, in the right circumstances.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

The "one punch" is one thing. I'd still get a hand on my CC and do my best Usain Bolt to anywhere that is not where I am, and then get checked out. "Getting your bell rung" is generally a concussion, which can leave you with all kinds of issues down the road, depending on how bad it is.

now, if it's a swarm beat down...it only takes one "curb stomp" to crush your windpipe, break your neck, or otherwise horribly disfigure you and threaten your life, limb, and freedom. By FL definition, that's a good shoot. I'm not gonna get macho and say "Empty the mag! RAWGH!" but if I'm getting mobbed, it's time for a tactical crab-walk with some rapid shooting.

[Phoenix David]

So wait... It sounds like some people are advocating shooting someone who assaults them. Am I reading that right?

In my AO

Deadly physical force means force that is is capable of creating a substantial risk of causing death or serious physical injury.

In my book beating someone until they are unconscious would fall into that category.

But with your SA up and running it may help to avoid the entire situation.

[taonindo]

better to be tried by 12 then to be carryed by 6

[squinty]

better to be tried by 12 then to be carryed by 6

Only just barely, when the 12 can possibly order you to be lethally injected, or make you spend a huge chunk of your life confined... Know your states laws about self defense.

[grennels]

I'm going to tell you what I would do, since after all, this is in WWYD...... I might succumb to 3-4 guys dogpiling on me, but somebody is going to get the almighty fuck beat out of them.....they are going to know I was there

Not likely. They aren't targeting the young and healthy. They are targeting the weak,
elderly and infirm. They are cowards.

They are the zombies.

[Kutter_0311]

better to be tried by 12 then to be carryed by 6

Only just barely, when the 12 can possibly order you to be lethally injected, or make you spend a huge chunk of your life confined... Know your states laws about self defense.

This was my issue with WI returning to the death penalty. Our SD laws sucked when it was being proposed, and I wrote a response to a pro-death opinion article bringing up the chance of ultimately being executed as a result of deffending my family with lethal force. I won't claim any responsability, but the death penalty has since been dropped as an issue, we got CCW, and last I heard Castle Doctrine was on the Governor's desk awaiting an assured signature. The legal landscape can change quickly, so stay abreast of the issues.

[smokinbunta]

This is something that i myself worry quite a bit, not so much worrying for my own safety but those around me. I'm probably the most alert person among those i call friends. (not that theres many of them) And a trend i keep seeing is that they believe 100% in "that will never happen to me!" and when i try to explain what UNPROVOKED VIOLENCE is, all i get back is "why would they do that?" "what do they get out of it? " "who would do that for fun?" They just don't seem to be able to comprehend the idea of getting jumped just because YOU WERE THERE AND LOOKED TO BE GOOD PICKINGS.

What always drives me nuts is when we're out (and i do like to go for a good time, have beers and get loose). But depending on the area of town we're in, i would drink more or less. If we're in the burbs in a bar/grill i'll get shitty, but when we're downtown I like to stay more alert and don't go pass tipsy point but i'll get the "you need to drink more and have a good time!" "quit being a party pooper!"... So i don't even respond to that anymore because if i try to say "I'm just keeping an eye out for us" all i get it "ppffhhh... nothings gonna happen".

The crazy thing is tho, where i grew up isn't even all that rough of an area, but it's close enough to the rough spots where you always get kids that like to act tough. And i try to tell myself, "where i live now.. is just different from where i grew up and the people here never had troubles like that."

A couple summers ago, KCMO had a problem with mobs of kids that pretty much overran a part of the city called "the plaza" where the yuppies and white collar folks hang, resulting in a lot of similar cases of beatings, loitering, overall destructive/ disruptive activities to the area and the businesses. And it is obvious why this area was picked, but there was much confusion to the fact.........

[smokinbunta]

I'm going to tell you what I would do, since after all, this is in WWYD...... I might succumb to 3-4 guys dogpiling on me, but somebody is going to get the almighty fuck beat out of them.....they are going to know I was there

Not likely. They aren't targeting the young and healthy. They are targeting the weak,
elderly and infirm. They are cowards.

They are the zombies.

zombies have more integrity than those bastards.

[squinty]

I'm going to tell you what I would do, since after all, this is in WWYD...... I might succumb to 3-4 guys dogpiling on me, but somebody is going to get the almighty fuck beat out of them.....they are going to know I was there

Not likely. They aren't targeting the young and healthy. They are targeting the weak,
elderly and infirm. They are cowards.

They are the zombies.

Sigh. There are no zombies. No person or people IRL are "the Zombies," zombies are not code, allegory or symbols for any actual people. Yes, happy slapping is a cowardly and moronic thing to do.

[ODA 226]

If someone walked up on me and hit me with a sucker punch and didn't knock me out and then a whole gang jumps in on me, someone is getting shot. AND I MEAN EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM THAT CONTINUES TO ASSAULT ME.

[The Big Ugly]

If someone walked up on me and hit me with a sucker punch and didn't knock me out and then a whole gang jumps in on me, someone is getting shot. AND I MEAN EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM THAT CONTINUES TO ASSAULT ME.

This... a million times this.

Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk

[smokinbunta]

If someone walked up on me and hit me with a sucker punch and didn't knock me out and then a whole gang jumps in on me, someone is getting shot. AND I MEAN EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM THAT CONTINUES TO ASSAULT ME.

well... i'm not sure how ballsy these kids really are.. seeing how they like to aim for old/ fragile people for the most part. But i would like to think that if you could get a good shot off while under attack, They would probably scatter like little girls..but just to be sure carry extra mags?

But seriously.. i don't even wanna imagine the legal complications in this if you HAD to shoot, seeing how a lot of these attackers are minors..

[ODA 226]

If someone walked up on me and hit me with a sucker punch and didn't knock me out and then a whole gang jumps in on me, someone is getting shot. AND I MEAN EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM THAT CONTINUES TO ASSAULT ME.

well... i'm not sure how ballsy these kids really are.. seeing how they like to aim for old/ fragile people for the most part. But i would like to think that if you could get a good shot off while under attack, They would probably scatter like little girls..but just to be sure carry extra mags?

But seriously.. i don't even wanna imagine the legal complications in this if you HAD to shoot, seeing how a lot of these attackers are minors..

I don't give a damn if they are minors either. The moment that first punch is thrown, Big Boys Rules apply. Granted, I'm 51 years old. But if they're stupid enough to try to play that shit with a 51 year old, 6'0, 230 lbs. ex US Army Special Forces Trooper and Deputy Sheriff, they're going to get fucking shot. An armed attacker? He's getting shot. More than one unarmed attacker, someone is getting shot. I don't care if it's a teenager or not.

[JFlagg]

If someone walked up on me and hit me with a sucker punch and didn't knock me out and then a whole gang jumps in on me, someone is getting shot. AND I MEAN EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM THAT CONTINUES TO ASSAULT ME.

well... i'm not sure how ballsy these kids really are.. seeing how they like to aim for old/ fragile people for the most part. But i would like to think that if you could get a good shot off while under attack, They would probably scatter like little girls..but just to be sure carry extra mags?

But seriously.. i don't even wanna imagine the legal complications in this if you HAD to shoot, seeing how a lot of these attackers are minors..

When it comes to violent crimes, age doesn't even factor in... A criminal is a criminal

[Utah_ZHunter]

I wont say we have this problem here, yet. But I have had to do the "Look" on a few groups of "kids" lately. You see a group following you and you realize/feel the wrongness, and jump way past 'code red'. I have found that the "Look" is all that is needed. And they go else ware.

BTW I am 40 years old, and i have a slight limp from an old injury. To some it may look like I am an easy picking. But a little bit of awareness is a good determent for cowards.

[ODA 226]

I wont say we have this problem here, yet. But I have had to do the "Look" on a few groups of "kids" lately. You see a group following you and you realize/feel the wrongness, and jump way past 'code red'.

I have to very respectfully disagree. I think we do have a problem here. Kids nowadays have no respect for their own parents. How will they have any respect for adults outside of their immediate families that they do not know? The answer is, most don't. They only care about immediate gratification and couldn't give a shit about anyone else.

Without getting political, IMVHO, the problem that we adults have with today's youth is that we have surrendered our rights as parents to love and guide our children to the state and when needed, correct the ill-actions of our children with "Coercive Force". Spare the rod and spoil the child is a quote that is true. Hence the problem we have today with this cowardly "Knock Out King" bullshit.

[williaty]

Without getting political, IMVHO, the problem that we adults have with today's youth is that we have surrendered our rights as parents to love and guide our children to the state and when needed, correct the ill-actions of our children with "Coercive Force". Spare the rod and spoil the child is a quote that is true. Hence the problem we have today with this cowardly "Knock Out King" bullshit.

The problem isn't that adults surrendered parenting rights to the state, it's that they surrendered them to no one. Parents stopped parenting; deciding instead that forcing the kids into team sports and buying them lots of shit was better than actually raising the kids. The state certainly hasn't stepped in to fill the gap so the kids grow up without much of any guiding other than "Win." and "Entertain yourself.".

[squinty]

It's not just kids 'these days.' That particular demographic of mid-teens to early twenties, aimless males is especially prone to seek out trouble, and to dismiss or ignore the consequences of their actions. Always has been.

[Murph]

So how many of all of you train in contact combatives?

[MelloJeep]

People who do these kind of things are only frightening because they lack morality and decency but strip that away and you have a punk. We live in a city voted #76 in the 100 worst areas to live and its a small city ,pop of 88k. Every once in a while you have an issue here, I used to tow heavy for a good ten years and run into all sorts of fun crap , the slim jim i had evened it up more than once. and on occasion I had overnight stays at the I.V. inn. Never let anyone get a drop on you or make their numbers scare you, make sure that when they wake up every morining after the day they screwed with you , and they look in the mirror and have no choice but to remember you!