You go right ahead and have the last word, if that'll salve your fragile ego. I'm sure the Army had no practical basis for establishing the tactics we are trained to use.

You know what? I'm willing to accept the fact that you just can't let go, and move on. Fine. I believe I asked earlier what experience you have with firearms, that you know we're so wrong? Really, I want to know where you are coming from.

On page one, you mentioned "panic pushing" the target to draw our weapon and fire. Granted, I think that most of us would recognize a zombie before we're in shoving range, but not necessarily 100% of the time, and especially so with fast baddies. Okay. In a situation like you have described, lateral movement is out, retreat is unlikely, I'm attacking. Don't see that I have much choice.

After all, you did say:

DonJulio I gotta tell you Im pretty much burned out on this thread at this point. You said you need to go home to your family at the end of the day. That is something cops say. I dont know anything about you but just on the off chance you are: seriously man it takes way damn longer than an instant. Somebody with a knife can get on you from a distance of thirty feet no problem. Its my bedtime now, Im on the other side of the world, If you are a LEO please for your family's sake put a frikin red gun in your holster and ask your kid to run at you when they decide. Im done. Peace.

It would have been nice if he typed what distances specifically that he meant regarding the impossibility of retreat.

How much of a head start from reaction time to turning and running do you need to make sure the guy with the knife or the rabies doesnt catch up to you? How far away does a guy have to be for you to be able to draw and fire before he is on you. I need more than fifteen feet. I need a lot more depending on how fast the other guy is.

I think that might be an unanswerable question seeing as different folks have different strides and reaction times than me. Maybe you should start asking some folks what are their individual averages, or those of people on average ( I don't have such data).

alright so im in an alley ... which weirdly enough i do make a habit of being in and I am face to face with a zed ... well in my right jacket pocket i have my trusty whip bat and in my left i have my knife. but i gotta say im going with the whip bat on this one. im grabbing whatever is to my left either to use as a shield or to knock over to hamper its efforts and im gonna do my best to smoke it in the head with the baton if im lucky enough to knock it over i think my steel toe boots will do the rest and im getting the heck back home grabbing my girlfriend and my b.o.b. and going to my island cottage. where ill stock up and fortify including but not limited to surrounding the small island with fence or wall just in case they figure out they wont drown and decide to come after me

... i may also spray paint the zombie. i had to get out of bed to type this but thats what id be doing in the alley, painting

I agree, however I espect all your input but the variables have seemed to change 4 or 5 times, perhaps not by you, but in order for this question not to go 6 or 7 pages long you will have to spell out all the variables or you're gonna get all sorts of answers.

legion, what credibility do you have to teach us all these things? Serious question. What's your background? How did you get so damned knowledgeable, that we should all give a fuck what you think?

Oh, answering the original question. Too many variables, it's impossible to give a reasonable answer to that question. How big, strong, skilled, and motivated is the attacker? Are they armed? How wide is the alley? Do I have a weapon? How long is the alley? Am I alone, or is there someone with me? Exactly how far away is the attacker? If he's really close, why did I let him get that close? Was I not paying attention? Why not? Why am I walking alone through a kill zone, begging to be attacked?

There is no way for anyone, including you, to sit here in a comfy chair chatting on the internet and give a useful answer to that question, because in real life, there are too many variables. If I was armed depending on the exact circumstances, yes, I am confident that I could draw and fire in whatever manner was required to drop him/her/it. Be that a Rhodesian/Failure Drill, a Texas Rhodesian, or simply two to the chest.

If, on the other hand, they were too close and moving too quickly for me to access my sidearm, I would (obviously) be forced to defend myself by other means. But what means? How are they attacking? Are they slashing? Stabbing? Do they even have a knife? Are they trying to bite me? Hand to hand is complicated, as is combat shooting. What kind of answer are you expecting?

My background in martial arts runs from traditional karate to MCMAP to BJJ and submission wrestling, and depending on the situation, there are a lot of different things I or anyone else might do to defend themselves. I really don't know what kind of answer or discussion you were looking for. You just showed up here and started acting like someone whose opinion other people should give a shit about without giving them any reason why, and then started acting like a bonafide internet tough guy when people got annoyed with your condescending attitude.

Reevaluate your people skills.

Some things cannot be better said.

In this case they can.

How?

"Painting", as you put it, on other folk's property tends to be regarded as vandalism. If I may make a suggestion? In the future, should you continue on down your path of crime, it might be a good idea not to confess your criminal acts to the entire world on the internet. Just a thought. Not trying to tell you what to do. Not claiming to be a big authority or anything.

No I dont think I will. Instead, I think Im just going to tell you to blow it out your ass.

Alright.

legion,

Here I thought you were going to take that warning I have you to heart and play nice but you chose not to. That's a shame because this is a really great community.

Then you make comments like this:

That's not the type of commentary we want to encourage even if the discussion gets a little tense and you get frustrated.

It appears to me like all you are here for is to argue. That's not what this forum is all about so I am going to put you on Probation for thirty days. Just a word of caution and your next offense of any nature will result in your being asked to leave and your account being deactivated.

Have a nice day.

"Shoot the hostage.""

yes dude it is painting and thats how i put it and last time i checked the punishment for carrying a concealed weapon is a lot heavier then carrying paint oh and before you decide that what i am doing is in fact illegal then maybe you should take into consideration the fact that i dont paint without express permission. i do public art sometimes for commission and other times i do it to cover the silly and often offensive graffiti that ends up on the walls.

If in this scenario there is only one "zombie" I would run away from it, then as it began to get closer i would turn around hit it as hard as i could once or twice set it off balance and disorientate it, then run in the other direction.

Glad to hear that you are doing it with permission. On the point about carrying concealed weapons, there are all kinds of items you can carry that can help in self defense that have another purpose besides being used for self defense. If you live somewhere you cant carry anything to protect yourself, you still have options by carrying things that can be used as impact weapons that dont scream "weapon" for example that spring club you said you carry is an obvious weapon. But a bike lock with a cable is not. If you get a chance why not post some examples of your art?

Hmmmm, running away full tilt, bad guy gaining on you, and you try to stop, turn and hit it ? This is one of those suggestions I feel it is important to try out first. Have a friend chase you, see what will happen if you try to come to a stop and turn. Youll both likely end up on the ground with him on top of you. Not much fun for you if the other guy has rabies.

So now the zed is running full tilt at you?

Can you edit the scenario to describe exactly what it is you had in mind?

Because the inital idea seemed to be that there is one zombie at the end of an alley, no mention that it's sprinting towards you or the distance involved or anything.

Im commenting on what thetommy said he would do. Did you read his post? He said if it was chasing him then as it gained he would stop, turn and hit the zombie chasing him. Is that a good idea? I dont think it is. As specialy as it translates to real life possibilties. Its one of the problems that is often overlooked in the "just run away" advice that people like to give. If you are alone and you choose to run you are committed to it. You have to hope that the other guy wont chase you or if he does he cant outrun you. How do you stop and turn around and fight with somebody chasing you? Dont you think its great that this point came up? It gives the opportunity to explore another aspect of the scenario. Once committed to running, you are committed.

I would never say anyone was wrong when answering to a question like this, partly because the question was vague, but also because each person is different...

And in reality, I would probably do something similar right now. But that is because I am larger & stronger than average, and fast for my size, and have been in enough scraps to trust my skills there. Plus I dont at present own a handgun, and even if I give myself one in this scenario, I cant stretch reality enough to also go back in time & have practiced enough to be confident with it

But I am comfy with my knife, and am confident I could get it into play in almost any situation. For the most part I dont walk down a dark street, or anywhere I dont feel secure, without it already in my hand ready to flip out if needed... so in going down an alley, it would probably be out already.



But for those who are well practiced & have faith in their gun drawing & shooting ability, I dont see how it would be a bad idea to draw... unless the guy is actually ON you. What would be the downside(s) of attempting to draw a weapon with an attacker very close?

1. Your hand gets cought up in a pocket or something, as the guy grabs you.

Could happen I guess, but if you have practiced & trained, and are carrying in an accessible way, it shouldnt be an issue... Probably would for me though.

2. You get the gun out, but dont get a shot off before he is on you, he may disarm you.

Also could happen, but if this attacker can disarm you with that kind of ease, you are probably dead anyway Really though, even if the guy is on you, there are many ways you can still shoot him successfully. Bottom line question, would you be better off with a gun in your hand, or without. Unless it is some giant dirty harry wheel gun, that the baddie could have better leverage than you on, and maybe even stop from firing by grabbing it... I would like the gun in my hand (obviously in a scenario where I knew how to use the thing).

3. You reach for it, but he is on you before you can even get it out, you must give up that option for the moment to fend off blows... so he may figure out you are armed & where it is.

This may be the worst of the worst case scenarios, but still maybe preferable to not trying to draw. I mean if you tried, you must have at least thought you could get it out in time, so you still went with the odds. Now you got a guy attacking you, who may be fixated on getting your weapon... This can be an advantage in a fight, guy gets tunnel vision & misses the left hook to the brain case, or the knife you pulled from the other pocket & stuck into his neck.


On the other end, what are the upsides of trying to draw (again, given that you are trained to proficiency) in the situation.

1. You get the gun out, put 3 in his chest & run away alive.

2. You get the gun out, but dont get a shot off before he is on you... yeah, I know this was on the down side list, but really its an up as well. Cause people do stupid things when faced with surprises, the guy you are about to rob/kill/whatever pulls out a gun... SURPRISE!!! So guy may lunge awkwardly at the gun, may turn directions in an attempt to get on the other side of you from the gun, he may change his mind and haul ass. But whatever he does, you have a handfull of pain you can dispense when you are able. And add to that, an attacker put off his game by a surprise, opening himself up to other sorts of attacks/defenses than he would have if you just put your dukes up.

3. You get your gun out, shoot but miss. Well, you deserve to die then... no, kidding, pretty much same as above.

4. You get the gun out, pull trigger, but no bang. Shouldnt have cheaped out! But you have a nice heavy hard thing to hit him with.


Saying the guy is just too close for you to pull your weapon is just odd to me... Unless you are just walking along whistling and looking up at the stars, you and the bad guy will see each other at the same time. So its not like you are going to come around a corner & find a guy running all out, straight at you. He will have to look you over, just as you are looking him over... And I would give the edge in this scenario to the defender. All you have to figure out is, there is a stranger very close, I am alone, he doesnt seem to be servicing a vending machine, or some other benign purpose... My hand would be reaching already. Bad guy has to do a little more calculation imo, figure your threat level, odds you will have something he wants, odds you are not a cop, odds you are not reaching for a gu... Oh crap!



Hmmm... what about not drawing though, what are the ups/downs? On the upside, if the guy is a skinny little unarmed crazy crack head, the gun may have been overkill & a front kick to the solar plexus was all you needed anyway. That could be, but you could still do that with a pistol drawn. Cant really see a lot of upside to not having a hard metal hurty thing in your hand when some punk wants to cause you harm.

Down sides? pretty much unlimited imho



Ps. if it was an actual zombie, I still go with the "get the damn gun out" idea... Hand to hand is just not going to cut it here, zombies have retard strength, only if your kung fu is STRONG will you stay alive that way. Obviously a foot dragger can be easily outran, so unless it has actually grabbed you, running seems the way to go that type. Any quick type will still need a hole in it's head to stop it, so even if you gotta fight it one handed/two footed while groping for the gun, it still is the way to go. Cause as soon as you get out, fight is over.